Ejection Charges/Black Powder/LEUP

[Scott Evil]

......... Be aware that Pyrodex still contains KNO3, and as a mixture that includes it, it is also on the list of controlled "explosives".......

Interesting, I didn't know that. How about Triple-Seven?

 

[jhagan]

Hi,

I have not read all the replies to your question, so this may be a redundant answer but...
Yesterday I purchased a pound of Goex 4F Black Powder from Kittery Trading Post. In Maine you only have to be over the age of 21 to purchase black powder. Kittery Trading Post has 17 pounds remianimng.
I hope this helps

J Hagan

 

[quickburst]

The law doesn't prevent someone from selling it to you, as long as you are of age and present a valid ID. Intended use is the issue.

Anyone 21 years of age with an ID can purchase Black Powder.

As one post said "it doesn't have to make sense".

 

[Rocketman248]

Hi,

I have not read all the replies to your question, so this may be a redundant answer but...
Yesterday I purchased a pound of Goex 4F Black Powder from Kittery Trading Post. In Maine you only have to be over the age of 21 to purchase black powder. Kittery Trading Post has 17 pounds remianimng.
I hope this helps

J Hagan

I love that place! We have family in Maine, and we'd stop there everytime we went to visit.

 

[Handeman]

I keep seeing references to the ATF FAQ about BP, what people have been told, and other explanations, but I've never seen any clear cut explanation of what the law is from a source qualified to explain it.
If you read the "law" or the ATF FAQ, it still references the phrase "black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms".
This has NEVER been explained or defined by any authority that I've ever seen, not the BATFE or anyone else.

Just because the ATF says it's a regulation, does not mean it is federal law. They are creating regulations to enforce the law and at times they make mistakes with their regulations. see APCP law suit. If they have a regulation on the books and try to enforce that regulation, it can be challenged in court and the judge (who is constitutionally empowered to interpret laws) says the regulation does not enforce the law correctly, then the regulation is eliminated/repealed/retracted or what ever you want to call being thrown out.

I've read posts here where people quoted ATF agents that said the use of BP falls under the recreational use of BP and is exempt. I've read other posts where people quoted ATF agents that said the only exempt use is in antique firearms. I believe both posters because I don't believe the ATF has ever bothered to define their interpretation of that phrase of the law. I don't thing they will ever define it until they get in front of a federal judge that insists on hearing what their interpretation is.

The bottom line as I see it, until someone goes to court and has a judge interpret that line in the law, there is not going to be a clear and definitive definition for the use of BP in rocketry. Until that happens, the next 1000+ threads on here is not going to solve anything or post any definitive explanation.

Some of you will interpret it very conservatively and as tightly as possible, other will see it as loosely as possible. Neither group will be able to say they are right until a judge hands down a ruling.

 

[quickburst]

I keep seeing references to the ATF FAQ about BP, what people have been told, and other explanations, but I've never seen any clear cut explanation of what the law is from a source qualified to explain it.
If you read the "law" or the ATF FAQ, it still references the phrase "black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms".
This has NEVER been explained or defined by any authority that I've ever seen, not the BATFE or anyone else.

Just because the ATF says it's a regulation, does not mean it is federal law. They are creating regulations to enforce the law and at times they make mistakes with their regulations. see APCP law suit. If they have a regulation on the books and try to enforce that regulation, it can be challenged in court and the judge (who is constitutionally empowered to interpret laws) says the regulation does not enforce the law correctly, then the regulation is eliminated/repealed/retracted or what ever you want to call being thrown out.

I've read posts here where people quoted ATF agents that said the use of BP falls under the recreational use of BP and is exempt. I've read other posts where people quoted ATF agents that said the only exempt use is in antique firearms. I believe both posters because I don't believe the ATF has ever bothered to define their interpretation of that phrase of the law. I don't thing they will ever define it until they get in front of a federal judge that insists on hearing what their interpretation is.

The bottom line as I see it, until someone goes to court and has a judge interpret that line in the law, there is not going to be a clear and definitive definition for the use of BP in rocketry. Until that happens, the next 1000+ threads on here is not going to solve anything or post any definitive explanation.

Some of you will interpret it very conservatively and as tightly as possible, other will see it as loosely as possible. Neither group will be able to say they are right until a judge hands down a ruling.

What you read on the ATF's site is pasted out of the CFR or Code of Federal Regulations. It is Federal law.

 

[cbrarick]

I'm new on this forum, so please forgive me if this has been discussed previously. I searched and could not find anything on here. I have my Level 1 cert, and have had it for a couple years now. I have never done a dual deployment rocket and have always had to go chase my rocket for quite some distance. This year I was hoping to be adventurous in the rocket design, and construction, as opposed to the rocket chasing.

If I want to purchase, store, carry black powder with me for ejection charges, is it require to have a LEUP? I live in Connecticut, and I can not find any information regarding state laws regulating the storage and purchase of BP. I'm a college student and usually only have the time and money to go to one launch a year (NERRF in NY). I have no close ties with any clubs in the area so I don't have many people to ask.

Your help and advice is appreciated!

I live in connecticut and am the treasurer of CATO. In the state you need one of those antique firearms or a black powder saluting cannon. To make it harder, you can't buy black powder in connecticut - no one stocks it any more! If you're only going to NERRF and would like a small quantity of bp, pm me and we'll make it happen. What school do you go to? We'd love to have you at CATO and may be able to give you a lift....

 

[ClayD]

Some of you will interpret it very conservatively and as tightly as possible, other will see it as loosely as possible. Neither group will be able to say they are right until a judge hands down a ruling.

All law is open to interpretation! And, you are dead on! i went a post further to say, they wont enforce it - specificaly so that doesnt happen.
They know its a gamble, just as we do.

 

[Richard]

... "black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms".
This has NEVER been explained or defined by any authority that I've ever seen, not the BATFE or anyone else. ...

It might be that we want to read the law as:

"... black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms"

I think it far likely that the ATF is reading the law as:

"... black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms".

Your reading might in fact be proper but what is critically important from a compliance standpoint is to understand how the law will be construed by those who are going to enforce it.

 

[ClayD]

It might be that we want to read the law as:

"... black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms"

I think it far likely that the ATF is reading the law as:

"... black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms".

Your reading might in fact be proper but what is critically important from a compliance standpoint is to understand how the law will be construed by those who are going to enforce it.

realy, those who enforce the law, more often mis-interpret it moreso than a regular joe. (i have gotten speeding tickets thrown out for not having the municipal code written on them)
It's those you plead grace from, that thier oppinions matter.

Judges, dont believe law is law is law, and those who eforce know best.
they believe, in- specific aplication review...(something i made up for what i am convinced through the hours i spend reding reviews)

Heres som citations from a case from a munitions manufacturer...this is a US district appellate court judge opinion.

Notwithstanding this all-inclusive definition, Congress expressly stated that "t is not the purpose of [Title XI] to place any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the acquisition, possession, storage, or use of explosive materials for ... lawful purposes, or to ... [impose] procedures or requirements other than those reasonably necessary to implement and effectuate the provisions of this title." general review of the bill modification to expand from 5lbs to 50lbs from unrestricted use (in a bomb) to a lawful use avidavit signed by purchasee...

The OCCA is a criminal statute imposing punishment of up to a $10,000 fine or ten years' imprisonment for the sale of explosives without a license. 18 U.S.C. Sec. 844(a). "The first interpretative principle and one to which the Supreme Court has repeatedly paid tribute provides that 'ambiguity concerning the ambit of criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of lenity.' " United States v. Grissom, 645 F.2d 461 Favoring the idiot - who doesnt intend to be criminal. (showing mallace)

Secondly, a subsequent amendment to Sec. 845(a)(5) casts doubt upon the district court's conclusion that both Secs. 845(a)(4) and (5) were effectively limited to sports-related activities.

This amendment indicates that without the additional limiting language, the original exemption was drafted broader than necessary in order to minimize interference with lawful activity. Therefore, if, as the district court concluded, Sec. 845(a)(4) was, like Sec. 845(a)(5), originally enacted to facilitate pursuit of legitimate sporting activities, Congress' failure to add similar limiting language to subsection (4) renders that provision susceptible to a broader interpretation. Although the legislative history discussed by the district court lends support to its conclusion,3 these countervailing factors reveal that the legislative history and intent are ambiguous.
17
to decide the issue means to determine the meaning of an extraordinarily ambiguous statute in the face of an inconclusive legislative history, a nearly complete absence of relevant precedent and a totally inadequate factual record.... We prefer not to expound its meaning in the absence of the light that may be shed by [the development of] a factual record.

 

[judo]

I love that place! We have family in Maine, and we'd stop there everytime we went to visit.

Ditto! That place is great! I think I have a hat somewhere with their moose on it.

 

[bobkrech]

[YOUTUBE]u0-oinyjsk0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Richard]

ClayD,

Let us just accept axiomatically that you are the forum debate champion and posses the most expert views on the greatest diversity of subjects.

Honestly, it just doesn't matter to me if you are correct in this instance. At this time in my life, with a wife and children to support, I have no desire to get arrested on federal felony charges and then to be compelled by that circumstance to defend my understanding of the law even if I am likely to prevail in the end. I think the probability of getting arrested by the ATF to be small but the consequences to be substantial. I don't believe that my wife would be pleased where I to engage in the entertainment of tilting at windmills.

I would, however, be most keenly interested if you where to take up your lance and go ahead and give your local ATF enforcement office a call. Please inform the ATF of exactly how you interpret the law and how the ATF errs and then invite them to come and watch as you engage in the "sporting" or "recreational" use of black powder ejection charges in your rockets. I think the most likely outcome will be that you will be ignored, but if you get "lucky" and the ATF should actually take an interest in your activities our understanding of the law will be greatly informed by your detailed reports of your direct and personal experiences with ATF enforcement of the law and our federal judicial system rather than from your internet speculations. If the ATF should decline to attend your demonstration, please consider making detailed HD videos to document your "sporting" or "recreational" use of back powder in rockets and then make a personal appearance at your local ATF office complete with a goodly supply of black powder, rockets, e-matches and electronics so that you can educate our ATF agents about the laws they are tasked to enforce. Remember, persistence is a virtue!

It is my opinion that a good amateur rocket enthusiast possesses an inquisitive mind and a willingness to push the limits of his knowledge and skills by experimentation. I think, however, that I will confine my own experimental efforts to the domain of science and I will happily leave the entire field of legal experimentation in your most capable hands.

 

[ClayD]

ClayD,

Let us just accept axiomatically that you are the forum debate champion and posses the most expert views on the greatest diversity of subjects.

those views represented are not necessarily the views of clayd, and likewise clayd cannot be held responsible for any likeliness attributed therin.

my activities are covered by an leup.... "i got wife and kids..., and a lot to loose" (most) E-matches require an LEUP. quite soon, my current permit situation will change, and BLECH.. i have change some things and get headaches that take more than aged scotch to fix.

For an honest, rebutle, my opinion stems from more than an "internet speculation", I am stupid and clever, but not dumb enough to go at my activities "legaly" on my own volition, or from the internet.(neither should you)

 

[quickburst]

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"
Mark Twain

ClayD .... believe as you wish, it's your choice. Turth is, it doesn't matter what you think. If someone actually does get in a bind over your belief, all he has to say is "Well ClayD said ..... ". I'm sure that statement alone will clear everything up.

To All:
The chances of an ATF agent approaching you at a launch and prosecuting for an illegal use of Black Powder is practically non existant. They have much bigger fish to fry. However if you choose not to use Black Powder its your choice, do whatever works for you.