Dual Deploy Practices

[KevinDunn]

At the end of a recent now-closed thread, Bob Kretch summarized the legal status of black powder as used in rocketry. I'm not looking to re-start that discussion. Instead, I would simply like to know what people actually do in the area of dual deployment. I pose this as a poll to avoid asking anyone to admit to criminal activity. I can think of the following options:

a. I use the (so far) unregulated Aerotech ECK-1 refills for their electronic forward closure
b. I use unregulated black powder substitutes (e.g. Pyrodex)
c. I use a non-pyro or minimal-pyro dual deployment (e.g. Rouse-tech CD3, tether using charge from a reload kit)
d. I buy black powder no questions asked (don't ask, don't tell)
e. I buy black powder for my muzzleloading firearm
f. I have a Limited Explosives Permit from the BATFE ($25/1 yr, $12 renewal)
g. I have an Explosives User Permit from the BATFE ($100/3 yrs, $50 renewal)
h. I am listed as a responsible person under my club's BATFE permit
i. I get all my charges from other people
j. I have found an ingenious way to dual deploy by a method not listed above

Please vote only if you currently dual deploy. You may vote for more than one option.

 

[o1d_dude]

I know someone who sells Goex FFFFg black powder in one pound cans.

There are also a few black powder shoots over the course of a year within easy driving distance of my home.

As a matter of fact, there's a big family shoot tomorrow nearby.

 

[Fdog]

I don't have a muzzleloading firearm, but I tell them that's what it's for.


All the best, James

 

[Getmore]

I know someone who sells Goex FFFFg black powder in one pound cans.

There are also a few black powder shoots over the course of a year within easy driving distance of my home.

As a matter of fact, there's a big family shoot tomorrow nearby.

Yep I have seen it. Good stuff.

 

[Disaster_Guy]

I am also currently using Goex FFFFg available at Gander Mountain. Maryland law allows the possession of up to 5lbs for use in shooting related activities. In no way to I volunteer any information when I purchase anything. I do happen to have a very inexpensive .50 muzzleloader in the gun cabinet though.

 

[jimzcatz]

I have never found any big box store that sells actual BP. Consider yourself lucky.

 

[Disaster_Guy]

I have never found any big box store that sells actual BP. Consider yourself lucky.

So far I have been able to confirm Goex or Swiss powder availability from Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, Cabela's, and Academy Sports. This varies a little bit store to store and by the season. With that said, it is required to be stored in a magazine so you need to ask for it as you will not find it sitting on a shelf.

 

[cwbullet]

I have a muzzle loader. I fire it all the time, just most of the time it pushes out a parachute. :wink:

 

[Coop]

^ Best answer yet!


Later!

--Coop

 

[cwbullet]

^ Best answer yet!

In a round about way, a rocket is a muzzle loader. It is round like a gun. It is loaded from the top if you exclude the motor. It fires and projectile - the nose cone - which is oligocondrical like a bullet. It requires cloth wading. It is very similar.

 

[SSenesy]

I voted for 'g'.

I got my LEUP (now a FEL) before deregulation. The initial process was time consuming and a bit expensive, but not difficult at all. The hardest part was coordinating with my local fire department as they're volunteer and catching the fire chief at an opportune time took a few tries.

I had a spot inspection a few months ago and also finished my renewal recently. The process was totally painless. The inspecting agent was very knowledgeable and polite. Renewal took about a month from the time I sent in my paperwork.

YMMV. There weren't any state or local regulations that interfered, so things were easy. I can imagine there are plenty of places that are more highly regulated and will need more work.

 

[Greg Young]

I know someone who sells Goex FFFFg black powder in one pound cans.

There are also a few black powder shoots over the course of a year within easy driving distance of my home.

As a matter of fact, there's a big family shoot tomorrow nearby.

I have a one pound can of Goex FFFG sitting right here. It is not black poowder, but rather a black powder substitute. I am just getting into DD, and found out the load from this substitute needs to be contained fairly tightly in your ejection cannisters (with tight wraps of electrical/duct tape, otherwise quite a bit of the powder actually gets blown out unignited, and youy don't develop the level of pressure you are aiming for to eject your chute..
So I am back to looking for true FFFF black powder. The gun store I bought the Goex at said they don't carry BP anymore, as it is just too combustable for them to have in stock.. Sounds strange, but that's what they told me.
Greg

 

[cwbullet]

I will get an LEUP in the near future.

 

[o1d_dude]

Goex FFFFg says "Black Powder" on the label.

Pyrodex P in FFFg is indeed a black powder substitute.

 

[Disaster_Guy]

While there are many black powder substitutes, I am not aware of Goex making a substitute.

The reason for many places not potentially wanting to carry powder is because of the magazine storage requirements.

 

[DJDeadParrot]

I have a one pound can of Goex FFFG sitting right here. It is not black poowder, but rather a black powder substitute.

I had the very same question not long ago after buying a can of FFFg, and was told that it is black powder. FFFg is just as useable as FFFFg, but the larger grain means burning particles will travel farther up the tube and do a number to your recovery system [having done a few ground tests this week, I can verify this first hand]. So, using it will mean taking more precautions to protect your recovery system. [thank you, Tom]

When next the opportunity presents itself, get FFFFg.

 

[atxcple]

use about 2lbs a month between rocketry and my uberti

 

[DM1975]

Nice Walker replica

 

[Pantherjon]

I had the very same question not long ago after buying a can of FFFg, and was told that it is black powder. FFFg is just as useable as FFFFg, but the larger grain means burning particles will travel farther up the tube and do a number to your recovery system [having done a few ground tests this week, I can verify this first hand]. So, using it will mean taking more precautions to protect your recovery system. [thank you, Tom]

When next the opportunity presents itself, get FFFFg.

When I bought my can of BP, I asked for 4F..They didn't have any but was told the 3F would work as well..When I asked what the differenc between the 2 was the clerk told me that the 3F would be 'sootier' then the 4F powder..And yeah, the grains are indeed bigger then 4F and the grains burn longer meaning there is an overall slightly LESS energetic event then with 4F..

 

[MCS]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501
https://mainepowderhouse.com/category/black-powder/goex-black-powder
https://www.powderinc.com/blackpowder.htm


-->MCS


.

 

[jsargevt]

SO....to be compliant with the law, anyone who uses BP that doesn't come packaged with a motor and/or any e-matches/ejection charges/whatever you call them that are nor pre-packaged with motors, you must have a limited explosives permit and either an approved storage magazine or a contingency plan to store the BP and e-matches.

Apologies if this sounds moronic, but this is a pretty confusing subject at times.

 

[DM1975]

You can have up to 50 lbs for recreational use, and for antique firearms without any license.

 

[Spicer007]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501
https://mainepowderhouse.com/category/black-powder/goex-black-powder
https://www.powderinc.com/blackpowder.htm


-->MCS


.

MCS, thanks for the BP information. Grafs & Sons is the only online source I found that sells FFFFg BP in quantities less that 5lbs...:smile:

 

[Rocketjunkie]

SO....to be compliant with the law, anyone who uses BP that doesn't come packaged with a motor and/or any e-matches/ejection charges/whatever you call them that are nor pre-packaged with motors, you must have a limited explosives permit and either an approved storage magazine or a contingency plan to store the BP and e-matches.

Apologies if this sounds moronic, but this is a pretty confusing subject at times.

True, but I've never been asked for my LEUP to purchase black powder. Quest Q2G2 model rocket motor starters are unregulated, work as well as e-matches, and cost about the same. The only disadvantage of them is the short wires.

 

[Greg Young]

I had the very same question not long ago after buying a can of FFFg, and was told that it is black powder. FFFg is just as useable as FFFFg, but the larger grain means burning particles will travel farther up the tube and do a number to your recovery system [having done a few ground tests this week, I can verify this first hand]. So, using it will mean taking more precautions to protect your recovery system. [thank you, Tom]

When next the opportunity presents itself, get FFFFg.

Thanks, that's good to know!
Greg

 

[Disaster_Guy]

No, you do not need a LEUP for black powder and its storage, sale, and transport is exempt from federal regulation as described here. Per ATF explosive regulations you may possess up to 50lbs of commercially manufactured black powder if it is used for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in an antique firearm Section 555.26 (ATF Federal Explosives Law and Regulations 2012, Page 19, https://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf) The same document exempts model rocket motors constructed of APCP, BP, or similar low explosives and contain no more than 62.5 grams of propellant (page 44).

With that said, check your state's laws as well. As I believe that I mentioned earlier in this thread, here in Maryland BP is regulated over 5lbs.

 

[o1d_dude]

Might want to check with your local and state folks about how quantities permissible.

In Cali, you may legally possess up to ONE pound of black powder. If you have a fire and your insurance company finds you have more than ONE pound, you may have difficulty obtaining a complete settlement (from the black powder shooters in my neighborhood).

Cali is a strange place.

 

[JordanT]

I purchased at a local gun shop, no questions asked about end use purpose. Pyro guys I know who build generally have a LEUP, but some keep a small replica cannon around for easy, hassle-free storage the 2F they use for lift.

I have a small qty of smokeless, but prefer 4F. The pound can I got 3 years ago will likely last me decades. I would happily get a LEUP, but it turns out that my town prohibits magazines of any type within town limits unless owned by a government agency or the local university. I had a meeting set up to talk to the fire marshal and town administration about an exception when the APCP ruling came down and I dropped the whole thing.

 

[atxcple]

why thank you

 

[RktSledhead]

For what it's worth, here in Washington state, the law says:
Chapter 70.74 RCW
Washington state explosives act
RCW 70.74.340
...Black powder as used in muzzle loading firearms may be transported in a private vehicle or stored without restriction in private residences in quantities not to exceed five pounds...

Now I'm not sure if that should be read "as used in muzzle loading firearms" meaning the type of powder used in muzzle loading firearms, or black powder ONLY to be used in muzzle loading firearms. Maybe dress like a pirate and carry a muzzleloading pistol at the launches?? That way I'm covered either way