Does an Estes Booster Engine Have an Ejection Charge?

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Rocket_Man

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So do Estes booster engines ( in this case a C6-0 ) have a trditional ejection charge? The only booster experience I have is with D12's and I would have sworn that the booster has a regular ejection charge but in another thread I saw some back & forth that they did and didnt.

So does anyone have the answer to this?
 
Absolutely NO.

The only booster motors that had an ejection charge were the core burning FSI motor and they needed a very short delay on top of the propellant to prevent the extremely high pressure from blowing forward while the motor was at peak thrust.

Look at the motor cutaway info on the Estes tech report on multi-staging. It is in the beginner forum in the sticky message about useful information that everyone should read.
 
It is not a traditional ejection charge in that it is not a separate granular black powder charge held in by a clay cap.

Instead it is simply the forward wall of the pressed propellant grain that cracks under pressure when it gets too thin.

From the outside, it would seem that the effects are the same; there is a forward rush of gasses accompanied by a "bang". But they are very much different.

The booster throws flaming chunks (with no other debris) forward that are intended to last long enough to reach into and ignite the upper stage motor.
The regular ejection charge *should* convert to gas quicker, though it doesn't always do so. And it throws debris forward (remnants of the clay cap) that can be hot. Don't ever depend on it to ignite an upper stage engine though.
 
So do Estes booster engines ( in this case a C6-0 ) have a trditional ejection charge? The only booster experience I have is with D12's and I would have sworn that the booster has a regular ejection charge but in another thread I saw some back & forth that they did and didnt.

So does anyone have the answer to this?

No, they do not have an ejection charge or delay grain. What you see in the front end of the motor when you look inside is the smoothly pressed surface of the propellant grain.

When the engine is lit, it burns outward from the center dimple in the rear of the propellant grain near the nozzle exit hole, and forward deeper into the grain. When the flame front reaches the sidewall of the case, the propellant keeps burning straight forward along a sorta 'hemispherical shaped' flame front for the length of the propellant grain. When the propellant burns forward, the slug of remaining propellant is getting thinner and thinner, until finally there is long a "disk" of unburned propellant in the front of the motor. This disk will eventually burn thin enough to rupture from the internal pressure inside the engine casing behind the burning propellant surface caused by the hot, high temperature combustion gases trapped inside the casing between the flame front on the propellant surface, the casing walls, and the nozzle itself before they are ejected from the nozzle orifice hole. (IIRC the pressure inside the casing of a D12 is around 70-100 psi or so?? Can't recall ATM... I DO know shuttle SRB's have an internal pressure of 700 psi at standard operating pressure). This pressure ruptures the thin disk of propellant and "blows out" like a blown-out tire does, and sends the burning chunks of propellant forward out of the casing where they impact the nozzle of the upper stage motor and by means of (depending upon who you ask) radiant heat from the burning propellant and high temperature gases that blow out the forward end of the motor, direct contact between the burning particles of BP, or direct contact of the flaming high temperature gases, the upper stage motor ignites (hopefully) and comes up to pressure, blowing the lower stage off and continuing in flight.

A regular motor has a delay train composed of slow-burning smoky BP which does not create appreciable thrust, and gives the rocket time to coast to apogee, before it burns through in a similar manner and ignites a charge of fast burning BP particles which then rupture the forward clay cap of the motor and (hopefully) eject the recovery device.

This is the principle difference in the motors.

Now, when the propellant disk bursts on a booster motor, and releases the high-pressure, high temperature gas inside the casing out the front end of the motor, it has a SIMILAR EFFECT to a true ejection charge in a standard delay-type rocket motor... there's a sudden burst of high pressure high temp gases and burning BP particles shot forward, which are adding MORE hot gases as they burn, further pressurizing the tube, and these CAN (theoretically, not going to get into a peeing match with someone on here about the semantics of it and safety code aspects of it) eject a recovery device or jettison the booster-- that's the main reason for having "ports" on long boosters-- to prevent the hot gases from 'ejecting' the sustainer stage of the rocket before the upper stage can ignite... short boosters tape the motors together for the same reason-- to hold them together long enough for the upper stage motor to ignite.

BUT, it's not a "true" ejection charge in the normal sense of the word, even if it functions for all practical purposes virtually identically...

Hope this helps... Later! OL JR :)

PS. look in some of the old Estes catalogs on the ninfinger site; they have graphics showing the burn process of the motors in flight for both boosters and regular delay-type motors... I think they even have a short animation on the Estes site, or somewhere (can't recall where I saw it online ATM)...
 
i read on the apogee website ( i think) that a BP booster motor can ignite a second motor upto 10 inches forward, but vent holes have to be placed further up on the booster stage to vent non hot gas, so that the pressure will not blow the booster off before the upper stage is ignited. same principle applys.


but no, An estes -0 motor will not give enough pressure to blow a nosecone and laundry out.

you could put powder BP on top of it and tape it shut, but that wouldn't be at all certified anymore.

also, why do you need a -0 motor with eject, or just a question?
 
but no, An estes -0 motor will not give enough pressure to blow a nosecone and laundry out.

Sure it can. I've seen it happen many times when an inexperienced flyer gets a -0 loaded Alpha or such past a pad manager (who don't normally check the motor). I've even got video tape of a couple of flights like that.
 
I second what Roy states. In fact, the old Estes CATO rocket specifically called for B6-0/C6-0 motors for flight https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-cato-donald-besaw-jr.html. There was a piston that helped the pieces separate, but to say that there are not sufficient expanding gases to cause ejection, or as Shread puts it "Absolutely NO." is in my opinion shortsighted and not representative of functionality of booster (dash-0) motors.

As others have stated, the BP propellant simply burns through on the forward end of the motor. In doing so, it produces hot gases directed forward. The intensity of these expanding gases is less than those of a typical "ejection charge". By how much...I don't know. Functionality of booster and standard delay motors is, like it or not, essentially the same!
 
As others have stated, the BP propellant simply burns through on the forward end of the motor. In doing so, it produces hot gases directed forward. The intensity of these expanding gases is less than those of a typical "ejection charge". By how much...I don't know. Functionality of booster and standard delay motors is, like it or not, essentially the same!

An interesting factoid: The ash and other solid matter left in the motor as the delay charge burns act as a baffle in directing ejection gasses forward rather than going back through the nozzle. Whether that's an intended function, I don't know, but it has been pointed out to me a few times by people who have been involved in the manufacture of BP model rocket motors.
 
I second what Roy states. In fact, the old Estes CATO rocket specifically called for B6-0/C6-0 motors for flight https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-cato-donald-besaw-jr.html. There was a piston that helped the pieces separate, but to say that there are not sufficient expanding gases to cause ejection, or as Shread puts it "Absolutely NO." is in my opinion shortsighted and not representative of functionality of booster (dash-0) motors.

As others have stated, the BP propellant simply burns through on the forward end of the motor. In doing so, it produces hot gases directed forward. The intensity of these expanding gases is less than those of a typical "ejection charge". By how much...I don't know. Functionality of booster and standard delay motors is, like it or not, essentially the same!

I said there was absolutely no ejection charge. That is correct. The motor contains cardboard casing, clay nozzle and propellant. There is no delay and no ejection charge.

I never said that the booster motor blowthrough was insufficient to eject wadding and a recovery system.

I answered post number 1 and there was no queston about deploying a recovery system with a booster motor.
 
Shred is absolutely correct! further -0 motor are NOT intended by the manufacturer to be used to eject anything.. that means we are violating the Safety code by doing so.

The amount of forward pressure is insufficent for most uses other then in minimum diameter models or very short near minimum diameter bodies. also the After Burn Flame from booster motors can be much more distructive to the recovery system and inside of the model.
IT is simply NOT recommended or a good Idea to attempt to use Booster motors for anything other then their intended purpose.. As lower stage booster or in clusters where the sustainer or core motor HAS a specific rated delay and ejection.

Safety first Always.
 
The latter part of this discussion boils down to:

CAN a booster motor eject the recovery system?

A: Yes, under certain circumstances and if you are real lucky.

SHOULD a booster motor be used to eject the recover system?

A: Nope - you likely won't be in those certain circumstances and, if you are like me, you ain't gonna be that lucky! :p

Bottom line - use a motor for its intended purpose (Booster motors to light off sustainer motors, and, if vented, in saucers, monocopters, RC gliders and any other odd-roc where you don't want to eject the motor. Motors with ejection charges and delays everywhere else.)

BTW, very nice explanation of the booster motor burn process, Luke - couldn't have described it any better myself! :D Well done! :clap:
 
The latter part of this discussion boils down to:

CAN a booster motor eject the recovery system?

A: Yes, under certain circumstances and if you are real lucky.

SHOULD a booster motor be used to eject the recover system?

A: Nope - you likely won't be in those certain circumstances and, if you are like me, you ain't gonna be that lucky! :p

Bottom line - use a motor for its intended purpose (Booster motors to light off sustainer motors, and, if vented, in saucers, monocopters, RC gliders and any other odd-roc where you don't want to eject the motor. Motors with ejection charges and delays everywhere else.)

BTW, very nice explanation of the booster motor burn process, Luke - couldn't have described it any better myself! :D Well done! :clap:

Thanks...

I think part of the argument comes down to the fact that the EJECTION CHARGE is comprised of "granular" black powder like a bullet cartridge might have... the granular consistency allows it to burn VERY FAST, IOW to "explode", which generates a pressure wave and considerable volumes of hot gas all at once, which pressurizes the tube and blows out the laundry. The "black gunk" in the motor helps seal off the nozzle hole at the other end of the casing, but I suspect that when the time delay grain FIRST burns through, it probably burns through right at the center (since it burns in a hemispherical shape as does the propellant, due to the center 'dimple' in the propellant grain above the nozzle) and at the instant it burns through and lights off the black powder, at that instant the remaining plug of time delay grain helps to contain and direct most of the ejection charge gases and force foward out of the motor.

In a booster motor, when the propellant burns through (it's a single pressed grain of BP, remember, which is why it BURNS instead of 'explodes' like regular granular gunpowder) the pressure in the motor casing from the burn (70-100 PSI IIRC) bursts the disk of propellant and vents this excess pressure in the casing through the ruptured disk. The flying chunks of propellant are still burning and producing gases as well, and the heat is causing all those gases to expand more than the ambient air, so it OBVIOUSLY is pressurizing the tube. This heat/pressure is also the reason why vents are necessary to prevent long stages from being blown off the rocket before the upper stage can ignite. Where the motors are taped together, the upper stage ignition is almost instantaneous, and the split second the tape holds them together is 'long enough'. There's a pressure wave from the blow-thru of the propellant disk as well, but probably nowhere near as strong as the pressure wave from the 'explosion' of the granular BP in an ejection charge.

SO, IOW, lotsa folks are arguing degrees and semantics. It's enough to say that the safety code specifies use of -0 motors for boosters and -2,3,4,5,6,7 or whatever numbers for delay/ejection charge for recovery actuation. That is the INTENDED USE, so we'll leave it at that.

Later! OL JR :)
 
I once saw an Estes Blue Ninja that was accidentally flown on a D12-0.

It ejected the chute right at burnout and snapped the shock cord and needless to say the body lawn darted.:wink:
 
Wow, this subject has been covered here on TRF sooooo many times already over the years.

I think luke strawwalker is on the right track with his comments about granular BP used for the ejection charge. It is my understanding that the granular form is designed for faster combustion, more intense gas pressure, and lower temperatures. The burn-thru products from a booster motor themselves do just about the same thing, but there are fewer of them, and the burn-thru itself opens up the booster motor combustion chamber and vents gases from that source at significantly higher temperatures. This is not the recommended way to treat plastic parachutes.
 
Powder: I would expect the granular to burn as hot or possibly hotter than the solid BP. However, it burns out much more quickly, so the particles don't make it as far before burning out. I think the greater chance of toasting parachutes is mainly because the larger pieces continue to burn as they are projected forwards, where the granular would have burned out before reaching the chute.
 
Powder: I would expect the granular to burn as hot or possibly hotter than the solid BP. However, it burns out much more quickly, so the particles don't make it as far before burning out.

Yes, I think you have the same fundamental chemistry no matter where it burns, but the form of the smaller granules allows faster spread of the flame front through the mass, which leads to faster consumption of the material, which leads to ejection gases that are actually starting to cool already as they leave the front end of the motor casing. The gas from the combustion chamber, OTOH, is still raging at full intensity and higher sustained temperatures as it continues to consume the broken chunks. I would also expect the broken chunks to be significantly larger than the granules, and that they would burn longer.

Hey, we need a BP expert here to give some solid answers, anybody got one handy?
 
Yes, I think you have the same fundamental chemistry no matter where it burns, but the form of the smaller granules allows faster spread of the flame front through the mass, which leads to faster consumption of the material, which leads to ejection gases that are actually starting to cool already as they leave the front end of the motor casing. The gas from the combustion chamber, OTOH, is still raging at full intensity and higher sustained temperatures as it continues to consume the broken chunks. I would also expect the broken chunks to be significantly larger than the granules, and that they would burn longer.

Hey, we need a BP expert here to give some solid answers, anybody got one handy?

Why is this subject Still being discussed? The original question was ask and answered days ago. Booster (-0) BP motors do not have an ejection charge.
Exactly how much pressure forward pressure is expelled at propellant disc rupture is for all intent irrelevant since it is NOT within the manufactuers intended or recommended use. Continued discussion merely confuses the issue making misuse of the product more rather then less likely.
Gregs bottom line puts it best.... Use motors as intended.
 
The initial question has been answered, and explained.

Thread closed,

Bob
 
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