Dimpled Nosecone for Reduced Drag? No way...

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Read "copyright" and "patent" several times in the article, so I am dubious. :rolleyes:

This has been tried on full scale aircraft with results located firmly in the data noise.
 
Read "copyright" and "patent" several times in the article, so I am dubious. :rolleyes:

This has been tried on full scale aircraft with results located firmly in the data noise.
I believe that the software and method developed were patented and copywritten, not the idea of dimpling. To quote the article, referring to a test of two nosecones one with and one without dimples...

In late 2022, the rocket was launched and flown with each nosecone variant. With the dimpled nose, it achieved a peak 41% reduction in drag and an average drag reduction of 20% while flying at Mach 0.64 according to Rodriguez. “Those are good numbers, but I believe we can do better than that,” he asserts.

Respectfully, this doesn't seem like noise. I know there are lots of half-cocked ideas floating around, and there is only one point of view from a business magazine vs. a science journal. However, it piqued my interest. I just thought it might be of interest to others.
 
If you have a really fat rocket and a little motor, it will probably reduce drag. That is, the exhaust plume is way too small for the rocket diameter. But in that case, who cares? It's not a performance rocket. Easier to get rid of the fat or put a bigger motor in. Or just add an appropriate boattail. And the dimples are at the wrong end of the rocket anyway.

Try pushing that dimpled nosecone to high mach numbers and see what happens. But please post the video, ok? It'll be really cool!

A car has a big flat back so it tries to suck along lots of air behind it. Accelerating that air = drag. Turbulation done right might narrow the wake and reduce that drag.

A rocket is not a golf ball. A rocket is not a car. A rocket is not a truck.

For the specific use case of the golf ball, dimples all over was a good idea. That way the ball can survive a beating and doesn't care about orientation. But people just blindly copy what they don't understand. Spitball engineering.

Gerald
 
I was the guy who posted that to the Tripoli forum and also appended it to another thread on this forum which I don't think has shown up in the post digest.

This actually should be relatively easy to test.....identical rockets and weight on the same well characterized commercial motors made from the same propellant batch, but one with a dimpled nose cone identical in shape / dimension to the other nose cone. Fly them subsonic multiple times and evaluate the accelerometer and barometer data. That would be independent replication of results and is part of the scientific method.

"In God we trust, all others bring data".
 
If dimples were so effective why has none of the big boys (NASA, SpaceX, etc) ever used them?

I'm guessing that with all those engineers for all those organizations they've already done the research and already come to the same conclusion.
 
The idea behind this is that it reduces the wetted area and decreases drag.
My ex-boss was an aerodynamicist at Convair and had also won the Missouri Jr. Amateur Golf Championship.
One of his project was to evaluate the Wilson Pro Staff with the truncated cone dimple. He would pick up his data and go over to the computer lab telling his boss he was going to hit a few 5-irons.
Never said how much it helped.
 
I read a research paper several years ago about a facetted nose cone (as opposed to dimpled), meant for high Mach hypersonic flights. It was made with high-temp ceramics, and tested for aerodynamics in a wind tunnel.
I don't remember the reason for introducing small scale turbulence at Mach+ speeds (with the facets), as I would expect it to disrupt any boundary layer aerodynamics. But then, aeronautical engineering isn't my specialty.

Dimples might work for subsonic stuff, but hypersonic is a whole other ballgame.
 
And yet, there's evidence to support the idea. I have heard of people using this technique with cars and such but I never thought of doing it with a rocket.

Check out this article: To Make Rockets Fly Farther Dimple Them Like Golf Balls

Disclosure: I discovered this on the TRA forum.
Interesting. I know that it works for a golf ball but that is bc the ball is a sphere and the dimples lift the ball while on the bottom half of the spin. trying to think how a nosecone might function. The air will hit the dimples and be spun away I am thinking, perhaps allowing for a more "open" pass for the rocket itself as the thrust lifts it. Not sure, just speculating but would love to see it in a wind tunnel.
 
If dimples were so effective why has none of the big boys (NASA, SpaceX, etc) ever used them?

I'm guessing that with all those engineers for all those organizations they've already done the research and already come to the same conclusion.
Couple of thoughts come to mind. For one, dimpling a nose cone is counterintuitive as it would be a change of the widely held "smoother is better" paradigm. The other is perhaps its been evaluated privately and determined that once the atmosphere gets thin enough there is no real advantage or their are negative mach transition and and above mach effects. Finally, dimpling a major size nose cone might really jack up manufacturing and testing costs, i.e. the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
 
I had a professor in college who did a lot of research (paid research) with a golf ball company. Golf balls are dimpled as they primarily see form drag; their fat, round shape punches a hole in the air. That creates quite a wake (suction, eddies) behind the ball. If you can reduce the "suck" on the back, you can make it fly further. The dimples get the boundary layer turbulent and allow it to wrap a little further around the ball, reducing the form drag on the back.

Airplanes in particlular have more skin friction (and lift induced drag) than form (shape) drag. Dimpling an airplane would only hurt you. BUT, you do see a form of this, vortex generators, in key areas on airplanes, to help keep flow attached, particularly at high angles of attack.

Cars are somewhere in the middle. Probably more form drag than skin drag. But there is no free lunch here...companies invest millions (billions?) in R&D on cars to get the best fuel economy that they can. Thousands of hours of wind tunnel testing. Don't you think if it was a simple as throwing some dimples on there, they would have already done it? They would have I can assure you.

It could be interesting to try this on a short, fat rocket like a Minnie Mag. But, I dare say the boundary layer is already quite turbulent by the time it gets to the base of the rocket and dimples toward the bottom of the rocket would do very little to mix that layer up and help it stay attached further down the rocket. A boat tail would be more effective, but then your Minnie Mag wouldn't fly straight. Always compromises....
 
Any vortex generating feature has to protrude through the local boundary layer thickness into the free stream to be effective.
 
Cars are somewhere in the middle. Probably more form drag than skin drag. But there is no free lunch here...companies invest millions (billions?) in R&D on cars to get the best fuel economy that they can. Thousands of hours of wind tunnel testing. Don't you think if it was a simple as throwing some dimples on there, they would have already done it? They would have I can assure you.
The underside of our 2009 Jetta TDI was dimpled....maybe 25-30mm each or thereabouts. Not the visible surface, but it's been done....
 


Since the rocket is not spinning, the second reason for dimpling a golf ball does not apply.


And since the rocket has a long, straight airframe behind the nose cone, the first reason for dimpling a golf ball does not apply. With the straight airframe, you want to maintain laminar flow as long (far back on the airframe) as possible in order to minimize drag.

Which goes back to my hypothesis: The dimpling on the tested nose cone somehow compensates for non-optimal form design that generates more turbulent airflow than a better form would.
 
Any vortex generating feature has to protrude through the local boundary layer thickness into the free stream to be effective.
I think I agree with you on this. So do you consider golf ball dimples to be "vortex generators?" I would say yes, they do generate vortices which add energy to the BL and allow it to remain attached beyond the largest diameter of the ball. But they don't actual protrude through the boundary layer--at least not like a VG would. What's your thoughts?
 
I think I agree with you on this. So do you consider golf ball dimples to be "vortex generators?" I would say yes, they do generate vortices which add energy to the BL and allow it to remain attached beyond the largest diameter of the ball. But they don't actual protrude through the boundary layer--at least not like a VG would. What's your thoughts?

Read Hoerner on the transition of the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent.
 
I was the guy who posted that to the Tripoli forum and also appended it to another thread on this forum which I don't think has shown up in the post digest.

This actually should be relatively easy to test.....identical rockets and weight on the same well characterized commercial motors made from the same propellant batch, but one with a dimpled nose cone identical in shape / dimension to the other nose cone. Fly them subsonic multiple times and evaluate the accelerometer and barometer data. That would be independent replication of results and is part of the scientific method.

"In God we trust, all others bring data".
I would love to see this done, but I think motor variation may mask any results
 
golf balls aren't rockets. They are subsonic projectiles.
The average PGA pro can get one to 168 mph https://www.golflink.com/equipment/fast-does-golf-ball-travel
that's not at all fast for rockets, in fact, I'd struggle to go slower (yes, i know some people do) with a 3fnc rocket
rockets, on the other hand, frequently break mach (it's really not a feat in high power rocketry)
That dimpled turbulence, as G-T said, would make for a really cool flight --- post a video!

this is a case of engineering to your expected flight conditions. what works at a couple of hundred mph doesn't at mach. Look at the challenges behind developing the A-12 / SR-71
 
Yes, in a wind tunnel. I don't see those results though....

Exactly. A wind tunnel/CFD test would isolate the aero effect precisely. They didn't do that. Just like Mythbusters tried to measure fuel consumption instead of simply putting the dimpled car in the wind tunnel. Good TV, bad engineering.

The author says this, which is completely incorrect.

"Technically, dimpling accelerates airflow in the dimpled regions around the circumference of the ball, reducing boundary layer thickness and thus aerodynamic drag."

Yep, I am not buying it.
 
A lot of aerodynamics depends on the Reynolds number of the fluid. Things like laminar flow airfoils and dimples are limited in that they only work at certain ranges of Reynolds numbers. A bumblebee is round and covered with long hairs because that is the lowest drag configuration at the Reynolds number the bee flies at. For Reynolds numbers of about 1 million to 10 million laminar flow over the forward portion of an airfoil can reduce drag. For things like coolant passages you want to reduce laminar flow as much as possible to increase turbulence and increase heat transfer.

In general Laminar flow is lowest drag. Turbulent flow is next. It is important to note that turbulent flow is still "attached" to the surface. Lastly there is separated flow, which is very high drag. People sometimes confuse these last two.

The dimples on the golf ball reduce the size of the separated flow, lowering drag and therefore, increasing distance.
 
As a side note, I find it interesting that the boundary layer transition graph:
Transition.jpg

Has some similarity to the logistics map:
Logistics.png
Which just proves that chaos always wins.
 
This would be great. Then I could leave my bubbly paint job on my latest nose cone alone. IMG_2779.jpeg
IMG_2778.jpeg
 
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