CTI vs Aerotech for 29mm

[doug_kosty]

I almost hesitate to ask the question, but can people please weigh in on the relative merits of Cesaroni vs Aerotech in the 29mm motor size? Specifically I am weighing the RMS29/40-120 vs the Pro29 starter kit.

It appears to me that Aerotech consumables are less expensive, while the CTI in the 3 grain case tops out at a higher impulse. The CTI seems setup directly to handle different delay times, so that is a nice feature. Any other compelling differences between the two?

I am not overly interested in the different flame effects at this point, so I will not weight that very highly in my decision.

I am currently using the RMS24/40 system with fine success, and am generally happy with the performance. Santa brought me some models that could use somewhat larger motors, plus, what the heck, we need bigger flames sometimes

 

[The EGE]

Aerotech reloads are carried by more vendors and as you noted tend to be cheaper. They also have the advantage that you can easily remove blackpowder from the ejection charge without completely disassembling the motor.

CTI reloads don't require major assembly and as you noted have more easily adjustable delays. (AT delays can be shortened, but it's more difficult). They also have the ability to fly H motors with the starter kit, which could be a consideration if you're considering L1 certification.

On the off chance you're considering clustering, they're about equal. CTI motors have quicker ignition but it's easier to open AT motors to paint the grains with pyrogen.

 

[stickershock23]

The money is similar in the long run.

How many Threads have you read that say, I have XXXX problem with my CTI reload? NONE (I even searched and couldn't fine one). How many about AT..
( I searched "problems with Aerotech and got 43 results) LOTS
How many times has AT come back to help support its customers here... I Quote "This will be my last post"

Now Go to the CTI products threads (both forums) there is a reply there at least every day from CTI. They stand behind their customers..

Bottom line, Buy the CTI set up, More choices, More reloads, more variety, you will be much happier in the long run.

Someone mentioned not having a vendor. Thats not a huge issue. I dont have a CTI dealer in my area either.(400+ miles to the closest)
but I have 3 vendors that are more than willing to help and get me what I want.

 

[mikec]

If you are content to fly G and below, AT will be about half the cost to fly. For example, a CTI 2G G57 is about $20, whereas I can get an AT G64 reload for under $10.

Sure, the AT is considerably harder to assemble and the hardware cost is higher, but it's tough to beat the relative difference in price.

In HPR the story changes and AT is less cost-effective, though still slightly cheaper (10%, roughly.)

 

[lLawndartman]

For me it is simple, Cesaroni is on the way up. Aero is on the way down.:confused2:

 

[madsen]

I almost hesitate to ask the question, but can people please weigh in on the relative merits of Cesaroni vs Aerotech in the 29mm motor size?

KIND OF LIKE YELLING "FIRE" IN A FIREWORKS FACTORY.

It appears to me that Aerotech consumables are less expensive, while the CTI in the 3 grain case tops out at a higher impulse.

TRUE. WITH AETOTECH, IF YOU WANT TO GO BIGGER THAN "G"--YOU WOULD GO WITH A 29/180 MOTOR--OR A 29/240. THE 29/240 IS USED WITH THE H180W, H250G ETC. BOTH OF THESE ARE AVAILABLE FROM COMMONWEALTH DISPLAYS AND BALSA MACHINING SERVICE AT 15-20% DISCOUNTS AT ALL TIMES. WILDMAN SELLS THEM AT 25-35% OFF DURING HIS SALES. THE GREAT THING ABOUT AEROTECH IS THAT THESE "H" RELOADS ARE STILL LESS MONEY THAN A CTI "G". SUPPORTING A LOCAL VENDOR IS GREAT IF YOU HAVE ONE--CONSIDER BUYING THE BRAND THAT THEY CARRY. IF YOUR LOCAL VENDOR ONLY CARRIES ONE BRAND--I WOULD JUST ABOUT GUARANTEE THAT IT IS AEROTECH.

I am currently using the RMS24/40 system with fine success, and am generally happy with the performance.

The 29/40-120 system is virtually the same as your 24/40 system. The only real difference is that everything is bigger and much easier for adult hands to handle.

Just for the record, Aerotech customer support is excellent. There are a few people here that are disgruntled ex-employees of Aerotech, or ex-competitors of Aerotech that take every opportunity to attack Aerotech, Gary, and the horse he rode in on. I know people that have had excellent warranty response from Aerotech. I have been flying Aerotech since '91--and have never had the need to file a warranty claim. Naturally, there are a number of complaints against Aerotech. Some people cannot figure out how to assemble a reload--and keep doing it incorectly. Also, in the past 20 years or so, Aerotech has sold more reload kits than all competitors will ever sell. In the area of 29MM motors and reload kits--Aerotech has a track record that goes back well over 20 years. CTI entered the 29MM reloadable market months ago. At the current time--several dealers are literally giving away CTI hardware. It looks like a great deal until you start comparing the cost of reloads. Then, you have to ask "how many times will I pay for that free case?

 

[UPscaler]

I like them both. Performance hobbies has a special right now. Pro 29 3 grain an aft closure, two grain spacers, one centering ring and one delay kit. $49.95

I might have to jump on that one.

 

[TheAviator]

I've flown both, and I must say that my only preference comes from the price-per-flight. AT hardware is more expensive, but the cost per flight is significantly lower than CTI. That, and I like assembling my motors. I've gotten the AT 29/40-120 down to about a 2-3 minute assembly. At the field, 30 seconds for a CTI and 3 minutes for an AT really doesn't make that much of a difference, especially since you're probably kibitzing with someone anyways.

Besides, I like building my reloads.

 

[Initiator001]

Doug,

Greetings from a fellow San Diego rocket flier.

As of this moment, the CTI Pro29 motors are not California classified and cannot be flown here.

 

[madsen]

the CTI Pro29 motors are not California classified and cannot be flown here.

That is funny. I guess Cesaroni is not quite on the way up as some believe. I guess that also means that Aero (sic) is not going down as quickly as some would like--if at all. :neener:

 

[MarkII]

Aerotech or Pro29? It seems to be that the answer would be yes! Why not go with both? CTI reloads are a bit more expensive, but you are paying for the convenience of having more of the motor pre-assembled. The Pro29 motor cases are less expensive than similarly-sized RMS motors, though, because they are simpler in construction. More of the motor is included with the reload and is subsequently thrown away afterward. Not better or worse, it's just a different way to implement a reusable motor system.

If you invest in a 29mm RMS case or two, you will be able to use a variety of inexpensive AT reloads. If you pick up a couple of inexpensive Pro29 cases, you will be able to use their brand new reload formulations and propellant types. Sounds to me like an argument for "all of the above."

MarkII

 

[Papa Elf]

Aerotech motors are cheaper. But is the cheaper cost worth killing someone?
My biggest beef with Aerotech is their delays are not accurate, most of the time running on the long side (but can be to short to, search for G71-1 and G53-1). A D15-4 should not be a D15-10. I lost an expensive, complicated rocket to a lawn dart because of a 4 was closer to 10 - 12 seconds. Unacceptable. And CTI has a better warrenty. My experience, AT tries to get out of covering their stuff, trying to claim user error. I seen someone cross thread a G load in a CTI which resulted in a cato, and they replaced the motor. Better warranty, accurate delays, better reliability. You decide.

P.s. I am replacing my AT 29's with CTI

 

[MarkII]

Be aware that in discussions like this, a lot of FUD can be thrown around by fans of each brand. Sometimes it can devolve into a religious war. A good approach is to ask for opinions from other rocket fliers in your club or area, and use your own experience as a guide. Don't automatically rule one or the other brand or system out. I happen to feel that both brands merit consideration. Eventually you may develop a preference for one over the other based on such factors as your familiarity with it, the availability of reloads, the convenience, etc. You already have some experience with the RMS 24/40; the experience of using 29mm RMS motors isn't much different. Try both brands if you can without committing to a major investment (e.g., multiple reload cases) at first. If you end up strongly favoring one over the other, you can sell off your hardware for the other brand.

MarkII

 

[madsen]

Aerotech motors are cheaper. But is the cheaper cost worth killing someone?

If you can't get an Aerotech reload to function properly--use whatever works for you. Most people have no problem with Aerotech reloads. That is probably why more Aerotech reload kits have been sold and used successfully than all other brands combined. To imply that Aerotech reloads are killing people is really off the wall. I do not fly PML kits. I do not hate PML--I just prefer other vendors. I would certainly never make a wild statement to the effect that PML kits kill people. Talk like that is very dangerous and does nothing to advance anything related to rocketry. I have been flying since the early '80's--and I am glad to say that I have managed to fly death-free. I have never even winged a bird or stepped on a Gila Monster. And except for the early years when I flew Estes--it has been all Aerotech. I will add that in 19 years of flying Aerotech reloads--I have never had a single problem with an Aerotech delay. Rocketry is best served when all of our vendors prosper. Attacking any one vendor with wild accusations with the intent to hurt his business hurts everyone in rocketry. We are such a small community--let us not eat our own. Like everyone--I have my preferences--but I hope all do well.

 

[stickershock23]

The 29/40-120 system is virtually the same as your 24/40 system. The only real difference is that everything is bigger and much easier for adult hands to handle.

Just for the record, Aerotech customer support is excellent. There are a few people here that are disgruntled ex-employees of Aerotech, or ex-competitors of Aerotech that take every opportunity to attack Aerotech, Gary, and the horse he rode in on. I know people that have had excellent warranty response from Aerotech. I have been flying Aerotech since '91--and have never had the need to file a warranty claim. Naturally, there are a number of complaints against Aerotech. Some people cannot figure out how to assemble a reload--and keep doing it incorectly. Also, in the past 20 years or so, Aerotech has sold more reload kits than all competitors will ever sell. In the area of 29MM motors and reload kits--Aerotech has a track record that goes back well over 20 years. CTI entered the 29MM reloadable market months ago. At the current time--several dealers are literally giving away CTI hardware. It looks like a great deal until you start comparing the cost of reloads. Then, you have to ask "how many times will I pay for that free case?

I am not disgruntled. I just know what really is going on there. period. too bad there are a lot of people that run around with blinders on and don't care when someone is trying to help them out and warn them. In other words. believe what you want. take my warnings or don't If you don't want to believe what I have to say don't.

By the way a very good friend of mine had a Cato. here is the response he got after waiting over a week for a response..


Hello Jeremy,

No we did not....apparently they never came through try sending now

Warranty
Aerotech Division
RCS RMC,Inc.
2113 W. 850 N. St.
Cedar City, Utah 84721
Ph: 435-865-7100 ext. 106
Fax: 435-867-9993
Email: [email protected]





Hi Jeremy,

I’m not trying to give you the runaround re: your motor issue, Due to our new certified dealer program , Jack of “What’s Up” is required to take care warranty issues with our product he sells. There is probably going to be some teething problems until the new program gets rolling and dealers / customers alike get familiar with the drill.

So at the next launch at which you see Jack, initiate the warranty with him . If you encounter any issue with the process from Jack, please contact us and we will facilitate the process.


--
Best Regards,

Karl Baumann
Operations Director
RCS RMC, Inc.
Cedar City, Utah


So He contacted Jack, but how can a certified DEALER warranty it. if They do what is to stop AT from telling the certified dealer he should not have warrantied it. then they screw your dealer for the free case and the reload he gave out. Its Aerotech's newest way to screw his customers over. think about it. In other words, If the vendor has to do a warranty, how is he supposed to know exactly what AT will and Wont cover? Now not only is the customer getting the run around now the vendor has to eat it. that cost has to be covered at some point, so that means the price you are paying will probably go up.

By the way Jeremy contacted CTI about this, They said They would take care of him. now thats customer service.

 

[bobkrech]

Gentlemen

Either keep this thread focused on the original question or I will close it.

Each of you are entitled to your own opinions, but I will not put up with another out of control AT vs CTI thread.

If you can't control yourself in here, take it out on the street, please.

Bob

Your short fused moderator

 

[Papa Elf]

To imply that Aerotech reloads are killing people is really off the wall..

I did not say that Aerotech reloads are killing people. I just saying it could happen in a matter of time. Bonus delay is common with their motors, just ask the lco's at the launches. It's a matter of time before a rocket flying with motors that have well known bonus delay issues damages property or injures someone.

I don't want an lawn dart with a rocket relying on motor eject. so that means using motors with reliable delays. I am tired repairing rockets due to unreliable delays (deployment at speed can do a lot of damage to a rocket)

 

[stickershock23]

No problem Bob,

But I thought he asked why Type x or y, I just tried to tell him why.

 

[Handeman]

It's hard to compare the CTI Pro29 to Hobbyline 29/40-120. The CTI had 4 F motors and only 3 G motors that fall into the Hobbyline or Non-HPR category. Most of the 2 and 3 grain CTI motors are HPR because of average thrust. Comparing them to the Aerotech HPR style of motors would probably be more accurate.

 

[ben_ullman]

www.rocketsaway.com/trucore

ditch them all, go EX, then you can make things how you want and if it fails its your fault.

Search "Black Five LDRS". When you get "good" enough at it people fly your motors and you can do AMAZING things :gavel: :roll:

op: I think Ray Charles can even see where this thread is going.

Ben

 

[doug_kosty]

Thanks for all of the information. Given that I am in California, not having certified Pro29mm motors is pretty much a deal breaker for me. Perhaps in the future CTI will get these CA certified and then I will be forced to make a choice. Or... get both!

 

[Pat_B]

Here's my last flight with an AT reload. Ended up being a 12 second delay. The reload was assembled by my friend who's L2 certified with about a 500 flights with reloads.

I mentioned my problem with this bonus delay on these forums only to be criticized by Gary as to not know what I was doing. Pretty much is a fact that he doesn't stand behind his products. Why do you think the term 'bonus delay' is so well known?

To me, the company behind the product is just as important as the product itself. That's why I'd never recommend AT reloads if you don't want to be embarrassed with crashes.

 

[madsen]

Here's my last flight with an AT reload. Ended up being a 12 second delay. The reload was assembled by my friend...........

Rule # 1 regarding reloads---ALWAYS BUILD YOUR OWN! It is very hard to make the argument that you "know" that the motor was built properly--if you did not build it.

Rule # 2 is to con someone else into cleaning it--but that is for another thread.

 

[ben_ullman]

Rule # 2 is to con someone else into cleaning it--but that is for another thread.

Not a good idea, You will be made fun of for launches to come and on public forums. Just speaking from experience :roll:

Ben

 

[Jeroen_at_CTI]

Rule # 2 is to con someone else into cleaning it--but that is for another thread.

What cleaning ;-) ?... We fired some Pro29 cases at least 100 times without cleaning. Not even wiping it.

Jeroen

 

[ben_ullman]

What cleaning ;-) ?... We fired some Pro29 cases at least 100 times without cleaning. Not even wiping it.

Jeroen

They always say its best to get it from the horses mouth. There it is!! :gavel:

Ben

 

[Pat_B]

Rule # 1 regarding reloads---ALWAYS BUILD YOUR OWN! It is very hard to make the argument that you "know" that the motor was built properly--if you did not build it.

No it's not. It was put together by an expert. I suppose if I did assemble it myself then you'd tell me that I didn't have enough experience.

 

[ben_ullman]

No it's not. It was put together by an expert. I suppose if I did assemble it myself then you'd tell me that I didn't have enough experience.

you will never win just don't argue

Ben

 

[DM1975]

It's hard to compare the CTI Pro29 to Hobbyline 29/40-120. The CTI had 4 F motors and only 3 G motors that fall into the Hobbyline or Non-HPR category. Most of the 2 and 3 grain CTI motors are HPR because of average thrust. Comparing them to the Aerotech HPR style of motors would probably be more accurate.

This is why I have stayed with AT so far. When I go for my level 1, whenever that may be, I will probably go with CTI, but for the mid power stuff that I usually do AT is a better choice for me.

 

[kramer714]

Ask your vendor, really!

Having a good relationship with a vendor includes asking them what hardware / reloads they are going to stock and/or focus on.

just a thought....