BNC-50Y and PNC-50YR nose cones

[mike_bar]

Are these two nose cones the same? That is, besides the obvious difference in materials used for construction. Do they have the same geometry?

I would love to build a few classic Estes models. I thought of kit bashing a Gemini DC or a Guardian. (Did I use the term “kit-bash” correctly?)

I have done a bit of research, primarily at the Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe Website. I noticed the Orbital Transport and the Comanche-3 are listed in both nose cone groups (50Y and 50YR). See: Estes Nose Cone Reference List

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

BNC-50Y, P/N 070266
Orbital Transport, kit #K-42

PNC-50Y, P/N 071009
Comanche-3, kit#1382

PNC-50YR, P/N 072604
Comanche-3, kit #1382
Orbital Transport kit, #1259
Gemini DC, kit #2136
Guardian, kit #2067

 

[MetMan]

Check out the picture reference from YORS:

https://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Nose_Cones.pdf

Looks to me like the 50Y is more pointed than the 50YR...

 

[mike_bar]

Your eye must be better than mine. I thought it was different perspective in the two pictures.

I will have to get out my Guardian and Gemini DC kits and start measuring the PNC-50YR nose cone. I will report back to you. Thanks...

 

[mike_bar]

I opened my Gemini DC kit (#2136) today and measured the nose cone (PNC-50YR). I use millimeters for measurement, as I find the metric system easier to observe and record than fractions of an inch.

The PNC-50YR nose cone has the following specifications:
Length = 111 mm (4.370 inch)
Outside diameter = 24.8 mm (0.976 inch)

This measurement compares the BNC-50Y specs:
Length = 4.35 inch
Outside diameter = 0.976 inch

Source: Balsa Machining Service

I believe the BNC-50Y and the PNC-50YR are the same size and geometry. Attached is a photo of the PNC-50YR cone. Please add any input you may have. Thank you.

 

[BRS Hobbies]

Mike,
I just checked one of my older Estes catalogs and here are the specs on the BNC-50Y -
Length: 4.350"
Diameter: .976"
Shoulder Length: .500"
Weight: .160 oz.

I also checked the kit list for both nose cones and a lot of the kits were listed under both nose cones. So at some point Estes switched from the BNC-50Y to the PNC-50YR.

Best regards,
Brian

 

[BobH48]

Mike,

Here is a picture of a BNC-50Y from my Orbital Transporter.

I got this kit when it was first announced, before they made it into the catalog, so you can see exactly what the shape is like.

PS. ignore the mess in the background.


EDIT: The PNC-50YR looks a lot pointier, in my opinion.

 

[mike_bar]

Bob,
Thank you for the original data from the Orbital Transporter. My "little" research project has turned in to a real bear. I have re-examined my online sources and determined I have more questions than answers. My main sources are:

1. Estes Nose Cone & Kit List Reference, compiled by John Brohm, Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe
   https://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Estes_Nose_Cone_Reference_lg.pdf
   
2. Estes Expanded Rocket Kits 1961-2005 (Updated on 02-27-05), Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe
   https://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/estes_expanded_kit_list.htm
   
3. Estes Annual Product Catalogs, Ninfinger Productions
   https://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/rockets.html
   
4. JimZ Rocket Plans - Estes Industries
   https://www.dars.org/jimz/estes.htm
   
5. Balsa Machining Service – Estes Nose Cones
   https://www.balsamachining.com/CONES.htm
   
6. Leo's Leisure Site - Estes Rockets
   https://www.leo.nutz.de/Rockets.php?Rockets=Estes Industries
   
7. Hobbylinc.com
   https://www.hobbylinc.com/index.htm
   
8. Michaels, The Arts and Crafts Store
   [/list=1] I have studied Bob's photo and re-examined much of the artwork from Estes catalogs. I have determined that the BNC-50Y does indeed have a cylindrical base as part of the cone.
   
   As Brian (BRS Hobbies) noted in an above post, it appears that Estes switched from the BNC-50Y to the PNC-50YR. I surmise they may have moved from BNC-50Y to the PNC-50Y first. I have not yet seen the plastic version to confirm the geometry of this part, nevertheless, see attachment for one example.
   
   It looks like Estes produced the PNC-50YR cone in later years, which is similar to the BNC-50Y cone, but with no cylindrical section along the base. Thus, the new cone appears “pointier” as mentioned by Bob (BobH48).
   
   Here is a case in point, the Orbital Transport:
   
   Kit # 1242, sold from 1969 to 1985.
   Bob has an excellent photo of the original BNC-50Y nose cone attached above.
   
   Kit # 1259, sold from 2002 to 2002, not listed in catalog.
   This re-released kit has a plastic nose cone, which I believe is PNC-50Y. (See attached photo.)
   
   Note that John Brohm has the kit listed as the PNC-50YR nose cone, yet the photo shows a cylindrical section at the base of the cone. This plastic cone does looks “pointier” shape than original balsa cone. I found the photo of the re-release version of the kit at Leo's Leisure Site – Estes Rockets .
   
   The easiest solution would be that John Brohm’s list is correct and reflects Estes decision to re-release old kits with nose cones that are close to, but not exact to the original. If Estes made this production choice, then the various kits listed in different nose cone listings are correct. Therefore, my question is what to do now.
   • Kit-bash with a PNC-50YR nose cone?
   • Buy a BNC-50Y from Balsa Machining?
   I guess this choice is up to the modeler. OK, now back to my day-job…

 

[gpoehlein]

There is, indeed, a difference between the PNC-50Y and The PNC50-YR. The 50Y was blow-molded, and is a bit longer and has a point, while the 50YR is injection molded in two pieces, is a bit shorter and is rounded - you can see this in the attached photo of the two nose cones side-by-side. The last rocket that this cone was available in was the Commanche 3 (discontinued in 1998 - the currently available version is a re-release that contains the 50YR). Before that, the cone was included in the Sizzler - discontinued in 1990. The cone was used in a lot of rockets during the 80s.

Greg

 

[mike_bar]

Thanks Greg, that is a good comparison.

 

[sandman]

BTW I do have some BNC-50Y nose cones i got from Balsa Machining Services.

Has anyone else bought any of the BNC-50Y's from BMS?

I only ask because the ones I recieved seem to have a ..."bulge"..just a bit, not much. It's sorta like a less pronounced Honest John bulge.

Maybe I'm just critical of somebody elses nose cones...sorry.

 

[mike_bar]

I do not think you are too critical. I know that a BNC-50Y only costs $2.35 from BMS, but I for one expect to receive an accurate facsimile of the original.

PS- I have not purchased from BMS. I expect to in the future, when funds for hobbies are more plentiful. I have read on TRF that BMS is a straight-up organization and values all customer feedback.

 

[flying_silverad]

Originally posted by sandman
BTW I do have some BNC-50Y nose cones i got from Balsa Machining Services.

Has anyone else bought any of the BNC-50Y's from BMS?

I only ask because the ones I recieved seem to have a ..."bulge"..just a bit, not much. It's sorta like a less pronounced Honest John bulge.

Maybe I'm just critical of somebody elses nose cones...sorry.

I noticed that. I always want to ask him about that but I keep forgetting. It does bulge maybe a mm or two.

 

[sandman]

LOL!

John,

I actually notice it more on the Mars Probe more than anywhere else.

 

[flying_silverad]

Originally posted by sandman
LOL!

John,

I actually notice it more on the Mars Probe more than anywhere else.

Yep. Almost warrants a lug standoff!

 

[rokitflite]

Sandman,
The bulge in the nose cone simply meant that it was happy to see you, not a machining mistake. You should be flattered.

 

[sandman]

EEEEEyuuuuuu!

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by sandman
BTW I do have some BNC-50Y nose cones i got from Balsa Machining Services.

Has anyone else bought any of the BNC-50Y's from BMS?

I only ask because the ones I recieved seem to have a ..."bulge"..just a bit, not much. It's sorta like a less pronounced Honest John bulge.

Maybe I'm just critical of somebody elses nose cones...sorry.

I have a couple of BNC-50Y nose cones from BMS.

I also have a BNC-50Y that I got from Estes back in the stone age.

Take a look at them side by side. Estes on left, BMS on right.

 

[sandman]

Bob,

Ahhhh....Not even close...

 

[sandman]

I have an original BNC-50Y as well as a BNC-20B for "upscaling"

I try to use as many original Estes balsa nose cones and transitions for any of my upscale cones that I make for people.

My technique is rather crude and simple when I make an upscale.

I measure the original and using the dimensions for the tube that it fits and the tube that I want it to fit...say a BNC-20B is 0.736" O.D. and my customer wants a nose cone identical to a BNC-20B that fits a BT-70 (2.217" O.D.)

So 2.217/ 0.736 = 3.012 times the size as a BNC-20B

A BNC20B is exactly 1.7" long shoulder to tip times 3.012 = 5.12" long.

I usually just use some good judgement on the shoulder length.

I cut a long enough piece of wood and chuck it into my lathe.

After the part is rounded somewhat I mark out the final length (5.12" in this case). Then I roughly turn the part to shape.

OK...here is where the crude part comes in but it works!

I stand back holding the "original" cone in my hand close to my eye and line it up with the cone on the lathe until the sizes match (sort of a silloette type of thing.)

I keep doing this looking for parts to remove until the shape is right.

See, I told you guys before...I do all my nose cones by "eye".

Like Michelangelo said, " I simply release the sculpture from within the marble...ahhh I mean the balsa."

Sure it's crude...but I AM a professional balsanist.

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by sandman
II try to use as many original Estes balsa nose cones and transitions for any of my upscale cones that I make for people.

You must have an original BNC-55AO "Goblin cone" as well.

I put an original Estes BNC-55AO cone beside a BMS BNC-55AO cone and the are not the same.

But the BNC-70AO cones that you made for my Goblin and NASA Pegasus upscales match the shape of the Estes cone.

 

[sandman]

You must have an original BNC-55AO "Goblin cone" as well.

Why YES I do!

I'm always searching ebay for "built" old junk kits just for the parts.

I want them right...not just sorta close.

 

[mike_bar]

Originally posted by gpoehlein
There is, indeed, a difference between the PNC-50Y and The PNC50-YR. The 50Y was blow-molded, and is a bit longer and has a point, while the 50YR is injection molded in two pieces, is a bit shorter and is rounded - you can see this in the attached photo of the two nose cones side-by-side. The last rocket that this cone was available in was the Commanche 3 (discontinued in 1998 - the currently available version is a re-release that contains the 50YR). Before that, the cone was included in the Sizzler - discontinued in 1990. The cone was used in a lot of rockets during the 80s.

Greg

OK, I feel a bit foggy on my own message thread!

1. How does someone accurately clone a model like the Comanche-3?
2. Which nose cone is to be used?
3. Does it matter?
4. Is a kit-bash a close proximity or an exact clone?
   [/list=1]
   
   With the Comanche-3, I could buy a new kit since it is not truly "out-of-production". I was wondering how others felt about building replicas of old kits, in general.
   
   I am sorry to be so tedious here. Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.
   
   Greg’s photo documentation (gpoehlein)
   
   

 

[rokitflite]

Well,
I must say that the reissued Scissor Wing looks all kinds of wrong with the supplied nose cone!!! I have dug through the parts graveyard and come up with an original PNC-50Y. It has be stripped, primed and polished and is going to be used as a mold to resin cast exact copies. If they turn out alright I will make them available for sale. That was a good looking cone, I wish Estes had kept that shape.

 

[mike_bar]

Originally posted by rokitflite
(Snip.) I must say that the reissued Scissor Wing looks all kinds of wrong with the supplied nose cone!!!

I agree... The different nose cones affect the look and style of the models. Thank you for your photo and the additional information.

Yes, the Scissor Wing Transport is the second model re-released with the PNC-50YR versus the original BNC-50Y. Clearly, different looking nose cones.

I build my own nose cones and mandrels for classic styles. If I need to purchase, I will checkout the Vendor forum, or the Yard Sale. Thanks again for the input.