Baltimore Bridge Collision and Collapse
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Capt. Eric
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BTW, happy National Maritime Day!
(Yes, there is such a thing, and it is today!)
(Yes, there is such a thing, and it is today!)
boatgeek
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It's not bad unless the cook can't make hot food, or worse, coffee.At 20 degrees the laundry machines usually stop working!
Just coming back to the real world from vacation and catching up. I read the NTSB initial report and the report more or less says the ship's main switchboard was configured as designed. I agree with your friend that this configuration doesn't make a lot of sense. When the LV bus tie was closed, as it was when the incident occurred, the system was designed to use one of the two LV transformers. That means HR1/LR1 and HR2/LR2 cannot both be closed. Therefore two single point failures (HR1 and LR1) were included by design. If either of those breakers trip an automatic engine shutdown and loss of rudder control will occur which is precisely what happened. It appears this is a design issue, not an operator error. I'm betting we hear more on this in the final report.
Sure there is an emergency generator but that takes as much as 45sec (I believe that's the requirement) to come online. Plus then you need time to restart the engine. So you're realistically looking at multiple minutes without effective control over the ship's course. That seems like an unacceptable situation when attempting to navigate between bridge piers.
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NTP2
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cool,it good to see some well deserved recognition!
I once was sailing a boat and did a tack just as a gust of wind came at us at our side, there was only about 5mm of space between the water and the top of the railing, and my brother was so started that he fell of!!
boatgeek
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My friend came to the opposite conclusion from the same data, which is an exciting example of how there are limits to what engineers control once their designs go out into the real world. Of course, my friend and I are both designers, so we're biased that it's always operator error.
The way I see it, the "right" way for the crew to configure the system is with the low voltage bus tie open and both sets of HV/LV transformer breakers closed. The low voltage bus should be set up with critical systems (ventilation, fuel, cooling, and steering systems, lights, etc.) having the redundant systems on opposite sides of the bus. So if one of the HV/LV transformers/breakers go down, you'll lose one vent fan, cooling pump, fuel pump, etc. but not the backup. You would have uninterrupted service.
The bus tie breaker is useful in the event that one of the transformers go down. In that emergency, you'd be able to restore full redundancy within a few minutes of the transformer going down. That protects you against an extremely unusual situation when the transformer went down and then the operating fuel pump went down later. It seems like it is better to have this as the backup scenario instead of the default scenario.
However, this is all speculation from far, far away from a non-expert who hasn't seen the system in operation or seen any manufacturer instructions. The NTSB will have a lot better info when they release the full investigation. It would be interesting to see what the switchboard manufacturer said to use as the default configuration.
Unfortunately, the regulations aren't really geared toward failures when you only have a minute or two to react. Even on this one, if the breakers had gone down 10 minutes earlier or 5 minutes later, it probably wouldn't have been a disaster.
boatgeek
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I had a sailing friend who didn't think that you were really trying (and/or there wasn't enough wind) if the rail was above water. Sailing with her was always exciting.
Capt. Eric
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The coffee pot works no matter what. Might have to make half pots, but it works. We always put a guard rail around the burner so the pot stays put. Oh, and the machine itself is bolted down.It's not bad unless the cook can't make hot food, or worse, coffee.
Soup is cancelled at 20 degrees, only because it won't stay in the bowls. Hot food stops at 30 degrees as a safety measure. But while we might take occasional 30 degree rolls, you're probably doing something wrong if you're taking them regularly/constantly. Bad things will start to happen eventually. 20's ok. 30's and we'd find a better heading.
I grew up in Duluth, MN at the western tip of Lake Superior. The harbor has 49 miles of frontage. The northside is Duluth, MN and the southside is Superior, WI. It is the farthest-inland freshwater seaport in North America. I grew up seeing all sorts of large ships, both American and foreign. There are many 1000' ore boats.
I had graduated from college 2 years before the Edmund Fitzgerald sank and was living in Duluth. Lake Superior can really get nasty . The Fitzgerald ran into hurricane strength winds and 35' (11 meter) waves the night she sank. It was a shock to the whole community as some of the crew members lived in Duluth and Superior. In fact, I knew a fellow who was supposed to ship out on that trip but had come down with the flu so didn't go. Saved by a virus!
Between the Lake and the Harbor is a 9 mile long sand bar called Park Point. There are two manmade shipping canals, one at the north end near downtown Duluth and the second one is near the south end that the Superior side of the port uses. Usually one does not think of maritime experiences at a place over 1000 miles from an ocean.
If you are curious here's a few links.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Edmund_Fitzgerald
https://duluthport.com/#:~:text=PORT OPERATIONS,49 miles of harbor frontage.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/XtXHbxeuYvxSaNT29
I have a lot of experience with system reliability in aviation. Earlier in my career I spent a lot of time interfacing with design engineers, analyzing how their systems would be used in the real world in the hands of actual operators and maintainers. I agree with everything you said about the right way to configure the system. It appears to me that the system was designed to have quite a bit of fault tolerance however it wasn't being used that way and according to the NTSB report it was being used as the mfg specified.My friend came to the opposite conclusion from the same data, which is an exciting example of how there are limits to what engineers control once their designs go out into the real world. Of course, my friend and I are both designers, so we're biased that it's always operator error.
The way I see it, the "right" way for the crew to configure the system is with the low voltage bus tie open and both sets of HV/LV transformer breakers closed. The low voltage bus should be set up with critical systems (ventilation, fuel, cooling, and steering systems, lights, etc.) having the redundant systems on opposite sides of the bus. So if one of the HV/LV transformers/breakers go down, you'll lose one vent fan, cooling pump, fuel pump, etc. but not the backup. You would have uninterrupted service.
The bus tie breaker is useful in the event that one of the transformers go down. In that emergency, you'd be able to restore full redundancy within a few minutes of the transformer going down. That protects you against an extremely unusual situation when the transformer went down and then the operating fuel pump went down later. It seems like it is better to have this as the backup scenario instead of the default scenario.
However, this is all speculation from far, far away from a non-expert who hasn't seen the system in operation or seen any manufacturer instructions. The NTSB will have a lot better info when they release the full investigation. It would be interesting to see what the switchboard manufacturer said to use as the default configuration.
A very important aspect of the system design are the operating instructions. I have seen many, many instances throughout my career where the person creating the operating instructions is NOT the design engineer. That's when problems arise. It produces situations where the system is not being used/operated as it was intended by the engineer however the operators are following the instructions they were provided. The initial NTSB report doesn't talk about the first half of that statement (we're just making assumptions about design intent) but it clearly states that the main bus ties and breakers were configured per the mfg instructions. I'm pretty confident we'll hear more about this topic in the final NTSB report. This is a very common focus area of investigations in aviation incidents.
boatgeek
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Priorities!
Capt. Eric
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Personally, I never drink the stuff, which is rare on a ship. But I bet I've ordered more coffee than any normal person drinks in a lifetime!Priorities!
NTP2
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well I’d imagine that if anything happens you would want your crew at maximum.Priorities!
How do you get caffeine? Tea? Soda?Personally, I never drink the stuff, which is rare on a ship. But I bet I've ordered more coffee than any normal person drinks in a lifetime!
boatgeek
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That's sort of an issue. It's more about preventing mutiny, though. I kid, though only a little. Most crews run on coffee strong enough to stand up a spoon in, and don't take kindly to being out. In general, good food is extremely important to crew morale, including keeping crew. Given that it's hard to get people (in the US anyway) to sign up for 4-week-on, 4-week-off rotations, you want to keep the crew happy.
Capt. Eric
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I don't worry too much about caffeine, but I have a can of diet coke now and then. If I need to stay awake I just stay on my feet and keep moving. Sometimes a shower or change of socks can do a lot when you're in your 20th hour. But due to work/rest rules in recent years, we're not really supposed to do that kind of hours anymore.
But as Boatgeek says, it's about keeping the crew happy (and satisfying the union contract), while staying within budget of course. I'd rather not have to drug my crew to keep them awake!
Capt. Eric
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Never had a 4-week rotation in my life. That's an inland and rivers thing.
Coastwise ships might do 60-75 day rotations. Most of my career was "4-month" rotations, but when on the tramp trade to mostly third world countries, or going to a shipyard, anything can happen to shorten or more likely lengthen that. I've done a bunch of 5, 6+ month trips. Longest was when I was promoted to Captain and had to finish a trip as chief mate, then do another rotation as Capt. I had almost a week at home between, but basically I was away for a good 7 months.
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In the Navy, the food has gotten better and better over the years.
Steel beach picnics are morale boosters, and are often combined with ice cream socials as reward days.
But when they trot out the steak and lobster( and rest assured that they do, and not infrequently).......it's a sure bet you're about to be screwed with bad news!
Steel beach picnics are morale boosters, and are often combined with ice cream socials as reward days.
But when they trot out the steak and lobster( and rest assured that they do, and not infrequently).......it's a sure bet you're about to be screwed with bad news!
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boatgeek
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They go down to as low as 1-2 weeks for harbor tugs. Some of my fishing clients have 4-week rotations if the boat is working for most of the year, but most will just have one crew for the season however that long is. Most of the long-haul tugs are on some multiple of the trip length that winds up near 4 weeks. That goes longer if a single round trip is longer though. I don't do enough work with inland folks to know how they manage rotations.
NTP2
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Hmm I would have thought that it would require some drugs, I guess you have a stronger constitution than I do.I don't worry too much about caffeine, but I have a can of diet coke now and then. If I need to stay awake I just stay on my feet and keep moving. Sometimes a shower or change of socks can do a lot when you're in your 20th hour. But due to work/rest rules in recent years, we're not really supposed to do that kind of hours anymore.
But as Boatgeek says, it's about keeping the crew happy (and satisfying the union contract), while staying within budget of course. I'd rather not have to drug my crew to keep them awake!
Capt. Eric
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You just do what needs to be done. Every day is pretty much a 12hr day minimum. That's 7 days a week for your 4 month tour. Sometimes you might get an extra hour or two if there's is an evolution like arrival in port, which requires "all hands". I guess the drug of choice is money. Anything over 8hrs is OT. Most guys will make more in OT than straight time. Besides, what else you gonna do? You can't go home, so might as well make some money.
It's not for everyone, but it's not a bad life. Remember, you might be away working for 4 months, but then you are off on vacation for 4 months. Aside from occasional training or physical, etc, that time is your own to do as you please. You want to go to Thailand for a month? Go ahead. Backpack Europe or camp in the Grand Canyon, do it for as long as your desire or your money holds out.
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