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ATFE Test Results At Hill AFB Reported

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Weekends

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I think the article is postive for us. They said the same thing about spreading weapons over an area with radio controlled airplanes.

Mike
 

shockwaveriderz

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so lets review:

in their infamous letter to the senate judicary claiming that high power rockets could be used to shoot down airliners, their tests show that was not true.... they also stated that they could be used as anti-tank weapons from 5 miles away...well it also turns out that wasn't true either....

So now they say HPR could be used to drop CBW agents ......well so could, airplanes, model airplanes, model helicopters,passenger vehicles, pedestrians, homing pidgeons, hot air balloons, kites,mosquitos,etc etc etc.........
 

rstaff3

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Whether what they say is true or not appears to be irrevelant. I do feel it is somewhat of a moral victory that they would admit they were wrong.
 

Hospital_Rocket

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Now what we need to do is continue to demonstratethat what we do is safe, educational, and worth preserving. Each and every one of us have a charge to grow our hobby. If in the short term that meansd doing something you don't agree with, LEUP for example, then do it. When all is said and done, we are a relatively sma;; part of the general populace. Numbers count, and the more people w involve, the more likely it is that our legislators will act on our behalf.

Perhaps a campaign..."I fly rockets, and I vote"
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by izzy
an article about the ATFE test results at Hill AFB using hobby rockets and APCP is available from the the ARSA News story page

at http://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews#atfe2

- iz
ATFE claims X, Y and Z.
ATFA denies the van caught fire.

It's a darn shame these people operate on politics rather than science. In science, if someone lies, they're discredited.
 

KermieD

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After all the talk about how the ATFE was goin to stack the tests to succeed, we end up with what appears to be a fair test that failed. I think it was Tim Quigg (although I could be wrong on the source) who said he had brought up the tests with a local ATF agent. The ATF guy was bewildered, saying "You all said you wanted evidence, so we're running a test. Now you're not happy with that?!?!?"

I think it's about time we all consider the possibility that they really ARE trying to look at all the possibilities, not from a "squash the rocketeers" point of view, but from the point of view that they want to find out what is and is not a viable threat as a potential terrorist weapon.

If we're honest with ourselves, we really aren't big enough of a group to warrant the individual attention for any reason other than this, whether it be to encourage our hobby like Enzi tried to do or to squash it like we try to tell ourselves they're doing.
 

Stones

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Originally posted by rstaff3
Whether what they say is true or not appears to be irrevelant. I do feel it is somewhat of a moral victory that they would admit they were wrong.
This perty much sums it up in my mind too. As long as there is somewhat of a "due process" occuring, about all any of us can do is continue to promote the hobby in the safest manner possible.
 

jetra2

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Originally posted by KermieD
I think it's about time we all consider the possibility that they really ARE trying to look at all the possibilities, not from a "squash the rocketeers" point of view, but from the point of view that they want to find out what is and is not a viable threat as a potential terrorist weapon.
Good point Kermie - I agree. It does make me mad in their report that they said this: "Hobby rockets can be used to land warheads in the general area of targets on the ground. They will claim that these rockets could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons against ground targets such as the Capital Mall area in Washington, D.C." Why did they have to add in that bit that I bolded? Why couldn't they have just left it at, "against ground targets," I'll never understand.

Originally posted by Dynasoar
It's a darn shame these people operate on politics rather than science.
Great quote...:)

Politics is one of those things that I'll never get...:rolleyes:

Jason
 

KermieD

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Where I'm getting at is that I don't think it was a political statement. I think it's a statement that came out from someone in DC who was looking for a local example to illustrate a point.

It would have been far more damaging to us had the ATF agent been quoted as saying "at the Super Bowl" or "at the Indianapolis 500", where it would have been associated with the movie "Black Sunday" or some other disaster flick and would have struck a nerve with a much larger audience.

CWB delivery? Yeah, it's possible. All the other systems Shockie mentioned are possible as well. Each of them would have their own pros and cons, and I'm convinced that the ATF has looked thoroughly at all of them, not just at our hobby.
 

Zippy

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I think the reason they stuck in the obviously remote possibillty of hobby rockets being used against ground targets was just a face saving measure on their part. After all their own testing has not been able to backup their own previous wild claims so they have to somehow justify the waste of time and taxpayers money. CYOA in other words. Even our elected leaders can easilly see through that so I'm gonna treat this as a victory for rocketry.
 

Chuck Rudy

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Why didn't the BATF@#$ just ask us? We could have saved them a van. I believe the current odds are 1:800,000 for trying to hit an airliner with an unguided rocket. They are so Anti-American.
 

wwattles

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Well, in the meantime, I've been in the employ of the government long enough to know that what is true, sensible, or right doesn't matter a hill of beans to the people making the decisions.

So I'm getting my permits and am going to continue flying until they make it illegal to do even with a permit.

WW
 

Missileman

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Well as far a shooting down an airplane or tank ect.. what a silly notion that any terrorist group would consider using hobby rockets (guess what they already have access to much more accurate stuff) Biological attack, yea a hobby rocket would do the trick I suppose but so does the U.S. Mail.
I guess what my question is do we now bury our heads in the sand or hide under our beds?
One truth in life is the bad guys can and will get their hands on what they want no matter how it is regulated!!!
I agree that what we need to do is promote our hobby to the public. Show what we are doing and how much we learn and grow from it.
Examples, my local club works with cub scout groups, My oldest daughter has gotten involved with a school rocket group ect..
and get the word out. My daughter and I where interviewed last week for a local paper about our hobby.
I invite people regularly to our launches (you would be surprised how many BARs this has created)
Follow the rules but never roll over;)
 

Ray Dunakin

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Originally posted by KermieD
Where I'm getting at is that I don't think it was a political statement. I think it's a statement that came out from someone in DC who was looking for a local example to illustrate a point.

It would have been far more damaging to us had the ATF agent been quoted as saying "at the Super Bowl" or "at the Indianapolis 500", where it would have been associated with the movie "Black Sunday" or some other disaster flick and would have struck a nerve with a much larger audience.
Yeah, but the ATF is trying to score points with the politicians right now, and many of the politicians are scared stiff by the knowledge that it could have been the White House and/or Congress on 9/11, and could be next time. The politicians "care" about civilian targets in the sense that they can use it to promote their agendas (bash the opposition, get re-elected, pass their pet legislation, etc). But the possibility that they might be a target, well, that leaves 'em quaking in their boots -- which is why so many of them are so quick to squash our freedoms.

Yeah, that sounds cynical, but the more I see of the political process, the more I realize that the average politician is nothing but a gutless, self-serving piece of slime.
 

Zippy

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I know I'm guilty for having contributed but perhaps this thread should be moved to... R.M.R. LOL :D
 

KermieD

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LOL!! That may yet happen Zippy. Since I contributed, I don't feel right yanking it, but hey.... Carl's out there with his big edit hammer yet and who knows what kind of a mood he's in!! ;)
 

DavRedf

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I thought of asking the BATFE if they would also consider restrictions on flour, sugar, vinigar, molasses, soap, pvc plastic bags, household ammonia, bleach, toilet cleaner, air freshener, butane and propane gas, lighter fuel, gasolene, diesel, the list goes on.
Why? because all of these can be used for explosives or cemical agents, and no I am not going to give details, so it would seem logical that they should be banned or permits aquired for there use.
Even the most cursory of studies will show just what is dangerous and it would suprise mst people just what can be made with the contents of the average house's kitchen/cleaning cupboard.

Seems mad to me.

David
 

kenobi65

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Originally posted by DavRedf
I thought of asking the BATFE if they would also consider restrictions on flour, sugar, vinigar, molasses, soap, pvc plastic bags, household ammonia, bleach, toilet cleaner, air freshener, butane and propane gas, lighter fuel, gasolene, diesel, the list goes on.
Why? because all of these can be used for explosives or cemical agents, and no I am not going to give details, so it would seem logical that they should be banned or permits aquired for there use.
Not to mention that ever-dangerous di-hydrogen monoxide.
 
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