Need help understanding LEUP.

Happy New Year, all.

I have not yet made the leap into HPR, but it will be in 2014. So far, I have bought nothing other than LPR (BP) motors from Hobby Lobby or online.

I have Modern High Power Rocketry 2, and the author discusses the possibility of getting a LEUP, and that there are different versions--one to allow buying and flying at site, and a different one for buying online and storing at home.

He doesn't go into much detail. So I am wondering exactly when this is needed.

Can someone give me the basics of when (e.g., anything above G impulse?) this is needed? And then do vendors ask you to present yours like they do your certification card?

Thanks for any and all info.

Bat-mite (John)

Check the date on that book. Since 2009 U.S. citizens are no longer required to have a LEUP to purchase high power APCP rocket motors. You still need a LEUP to purchase some types of igniters.

Nathan said:

Check the date on that book. Since 2009 U.S. citizens are no longer required to have a LEUP to purchase high power APCP rocket motors. You still need a LEUP to purchase some types of igniters.

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And also for the purchase and storage of the black powder needed for ejection charges, but not if it is to be used in a muzzle loading firearm. If that makes no sense it indicates you have normal intelligence. :wink:

Hmmm. To my understanding, RMS kits come with a BP ejection charge, no? So how does that work?

As to your other point, I see a new slogan in the works: "Guns don't kill people. Model rockets do."

Bat-mite said:

Hmmm. To my understanding, RMS kits come with a BP ejection charge, no? So how does that work?

As to your other point, I see a new slogan in the works: "Guns don't kill people. Model rockets do."

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I'm not into HP, yet, and I am still resisting the temptation. As for what used to be called "mid-power" and the reloadable hardware, these do indeed include a small amount of black powder for ejection charges. You might want to try these before you go full throttle with L1 certification and HP, not only because of the expense but also to gain the experience. I think the problem of LEUP and black powder storage arises when one graduates into the realm of electronic chute deployment which is a bit more complicated. I'm sure there are many here who are much better versed on this topic than I am.

The reason there is an exception in the law allowing for the use of black powder in certain firearms is the Second amendment and the pressure applied to lawmakers by the NRA, not to be confused with the NAR.

tmacklin said:

And also for the purchase and storage of the black powder needed for ejection charges, but not if it is to be used in a muzzle loading firearm. If that makes no sense it indicates you have normal intelligence. :wink:

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Yep! I take my 3x upscale Astron Gettysberg to all the launch re-enactments I can get to.

Bat-mite said:

I have Modern High Power Rocketry 2, and the author discusses the possibility of getting a LEUP, and that there are different versions--one to allow buying and flying at site, and a different one for buying online and storing at home.

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There is no longer any such thing as a LEUP. When getting a user permit there are two choices: a Limited Permit or a User of Explosives Permit. (EUP)

The Limited Permit allows you to purchase and transport explosives a limited number of times per year and only in your home state. It must be renewed every year and its only advantage is that it is slightly less expensive.

The EUP is good for three years in any state. While there are no explosive type limitations on permits (low, high, blasting...) you must have appropriate storage.

When I was in the army, they tried to get me to REUP. Fat chance! :flyingpig:

Let me understand this:

If I go into a store to buy a 1 pound can of FFFFG, for the purposes of ejecting a metal projectile out of a steal barrel.... NO PROBLEM!

If I go into a store to buy a 1 pound can of FFFFG, for the purposes of ejecting a plastic nosecone and Nylon parachute out of a cardboard tube.... I need a $100 BATFE permit?

Yup.
:rofl:

Even better, if you buy a rocket motor, reload kit and it has an igniter or BP in it, you need a permit. I believe, I may be wrong, estes motors and "model rocket igniters" may be exempt. Maybe UhClem can verify this (he's the expert!)

Tony

tfish said:

Even better, if you buy a rocket motor, reload kit and it has an igniter or BP in it, you need a permit. I believe, I may be wrong, estes motors and "model rocket igniters" may be exempt. Maybe UhClem can verify this (he's the expert!)

Tony

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I have never seen a rocket motor come with BP or an igniter. All mine come with ejection powder and motor lighters. :wink:

Braden

UPscaler said:

I have never seen a rocket motor come with BP or an igniter. All mine come with ejection powder and motor lighters. :wink:

Braden

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Doesn't matter what 'you' or other people call them. It matters what the ATF calls them!


Tony

CZ Brat said:

Let me understand this:

If I go into a store to buy a 1 pound can of FFFFG, for the purposes of ejecting a metal projectile out of a steal barrel.... NO PROBLEM!

If I go into a store to buy a 1 pound can of FFFFG, for the purposes of ejecting a plastic nosecone and Nylon parachute out of a cardboard tube.... I need a $100 BATFE permit?

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And if NAR and Tripoli had the amount of members and money as the NRA, we wouldn't be having this entire conversation.

tmacklin said:

The reason there is an exception in the law allowing for the use of black powder in certain firearms is the Second amendment and the pressure applied to lawmakers by the NRA, not to be confused with the NAR.

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Any reason you cant claim that your rockets deployment system is a form of firearm?

tfish said:

Doesn't matter what 'you' or other people call them.


Tony

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Actually it DOES matter. I had a long talk with two ATF inspectors which lasted 2hrs. The results I will shorten to this:

It's all a matter of "legal" definition & they cannot change that. They can only interpret it. An act of Congress is required to change it in the book. We all know Congress not going to waste their time with a matter deemed trivial by them since less than 10,000 constituents are involved.

However when you have millions represented by the NRA, that becomes a whole another matter. They have clout, we don't.

If you call them motor starters & ejection charge starters, it falls outside of the definition parameters.

Even Estes finally got on board with this, now calling their igniters rocket starters,leaving "motor" out, to avoid conflict.[see below] So call them by the above and stay off the radar. Call them anything else & you are asking to get noticed and harassed.
I'm sure there are a few hotshots out there who wish to debate this and I for one am not going to get in that one. As I was told "let a dead dog lie" don't keep poking the bear with a stick, if ya do he will eventually wake up and bite ya.

I have mine and maintain it every 3 years. Can't hurt to have one.

Just looked at the card, (FEL) Federal Explosives License ??

I believe Bob Krech (Sr. Advisor to my local club CMASS) has definitively addressed this issue, which pops up from time to time on TRF.

See here for details. Bob's post is the last one on the (closed) thread.

CZ Brat said:

Let me understand this:

If I go into a store to buy a 1 pound can of FFFFG, for the purposes of ejecting a metal projectile out of a steal barrel.... NO PROBLEM!

If I go into a store to buy a 1 pound can of FFFFG, for the purposes of ejecting a plastic nosecone and Nylon parachute out of a cardboard tube.... I need a $100 BATFE permit?

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You have to wonder what the BATFE thinks of THESE guys....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhQ4dE_RGnQ

dave carver said:

You have to wonder what the BATFE thinks of THESE guys....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhQ4dE_RGnQ

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This is more dangerous then ejecting a parachute 900' in the air, and they light the anvil charge by a fuse, the ATFE should be all over this. Makes no sense, you do not need a LEUP for your antique guns, you do not need a LEUP to shot a 20 pound
Anvil in the air by a fuse but you need a LUEP to eject a parachute at 900' WTH!!!

Kehoes23 said:

This is more dangerous then ejecting a parachute 900' in the air, and they light the anvil charge by a fuse, the ATFE should be all over this. Makes no sense, you do not need a LEUP for your antique guns, you do not need a LEUP to shot a 20 pound
Anvil in the air by a fuse but you need a LUEP to eject a parachute at 900' WTH!!!

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Naaaa, the BATFE is afraid someone will buy 300 Aerotech motors, pour all the red caps holding the black powder together, then using an igniter procede to dis-intigrate whatever chosen object of their ill will is...