Ejection Charges/Black Powder/LEUP

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fish701

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I'm new on this forum, so please forgive me if this has been discussed previously. I searched and could not find anything on here. I have my Level 1 cert, and have had it for a couple years now. I have never done a dual deployment rocket and have always had to go chase my rocket for quite some distance. This year I was hoping to be adventurous in the rocket design, and construction, as opposed to the rocket chasing.

If I want to purchase, store, carry black powder with me for ejection charges, is it require to have a LEUP? I live in Connecticut, and I can not find any information regarding state laws regulating the storage and purchase of BP. I'm a college student and usually only have the time and money to go to one launch a year (NERRF in NY). I have no close ties with any clubs in the area so I don't have many people to ask.

Your help and advice is appreciated!
 
Well, if you only go to NERF I'd send them email and I'm sure somebody will help out.

Aerotech also sells "ejection charge kits" on their https://valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=14&itemid=67 site.

But, yes, I believe it is true that you need a LEUP to legally possess black powder for rocketry. Although there seems to be some debate in the community that the "sporting use" mentioned in the exemption can be applied to rocketry. The typical advice is to talk to the club you fly with and follow their procedures.
 
fish701 said:
Your help and advice is appreciated!
Click to expand...

This is a "question" that gets the shriv's all fired up.... pun intended.

Your local laws are what i would look at if i were you. In most state's I've looked at thier books, BP is an explosive, and delegated to the DOT, and Firemarshal. (my state has two other departments that overlap with thsese two, and is quite confusing. department of public safety, and department of mines) Firemarshal and mines with the storage and use, and dot and DPS with the transport.

If you are purchasing BP, i would not buy it online or outside your resident state. My personal opinion is as long as your not in interstate commerce, you can purchase up to 50lbs of bp for personal use and does not require a permit. It is also my opinion that the personal use clause qualifiers are intended to confine its use to acts that dont endanger others, or in uses specificaly made illegal by other code, (black powder use in fireamrs subject to national firearms act, and devices intended for destruction or injury.)

Your local club may have someone who is knowlegable, i've found most people would rather not know the correct way, they think it gives them an excuse. i would recomend talking to your club, and then doing a search into your state laws and delegated jurisdiction.
 
I have also heard it said that the purchase, storage, and use of black powder is only legal with black power rifles and pistols. Any other use, including ejection charges for rocketry, requires a LEUP. Clearly few rocketeers adhere to this, and it is something the Feds tend not to enforce, but it could get you in trouble if somebody wanted to make trouble of the situation.
 
It certainly seems like it would be difficult to enforce. I spoke to the chief at the fire department I volunteer at, who also works part time with the fire marshall's office, and is a deputy full time in another town in state. He says as far as he knows, they do not have jurisdiction in a single family dwelling, unless a resident specifically states they feel in danger.

My concern wasn't really the storage in home, but more the transport. I know for now, I could use the small ejection charge kits from aero-tech, but in the future, I would like to launches more regularly, and also design and build my own altimeter from scratch, which would require some significant testing.

I would just rather know what the protocols are, and try to follow them the best that I can, in case something did happen, and I was put on the spot for not following them.

Thank you all for your replies. Your help and advice is certainly greatly appreciated!
 
fish701 said:
It certainly seems like it would be difficult to enforce. I spoke to the chief at the fire department I volunteer at, who also works part time with the fire marshall's office, and is a deputy full time in another town in state. He says as far as he knows, they do not have jurisdiction in a single family dwelling, unless a resident specifically states they feel in danger.

My concern wasn't really the storage in home, but more the transport. I know for now, I could use the small ejection charge kits from aero-tech, but in the future, I would like to launches more regularly, and also design and build my own altimeter from scratch, which would require some significant testing.

I would just rather know what the protocols are, and try to follow them the best that I can, in case something did happen, and I was put on the spot for not following them.

Thank you all for your replies. Your help and advice is certainly greatly appreciated!
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that is absolutely understood i have had the same - questions. I have a lot to lose from being on the wrong side, any good citizen feels that way.
Unfortunately forums such as TRF rarely give any real resolve to your questions that are subjective like this
(not picking on rockets4kids, but his response is a good example of the subjective answer and a non-resolving answer.) "i have heard" hearsay.... with no qualificaitons where it was heard, or that the person who said it was an expert in federal regulation and its imposition on any US citizen. and then enciting a punishment if YOU dont have an leup.

Legal advice, is best saught through an attorney. what i would do, is write your questions down, and submit it to your states attorney general. they will quote, and cite the applicable federal and state requirements you need to follow. THey are the expert-- in what i said above.....(and your elected representation, who you can ask freely)- they will answer you.
 
Pyrodex (black powder substitute) is usually less regulated. I use it all the time; it needs to be tightly confined to work properly. Several layers of tape over and around the charge container will suffice. Measure the same as black powder.
 
Short answer the use of Black Powder in rocketry requires a LEUP along with legal storage.

Here is waht the law says:

(b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted from the term “destructive devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).
[T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR 40384, Aug. 7, 1981 as amended by T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR 46916, Sept. 23, 1981; T.D. ATF–293, 55 FR 3722, Feb. 5, 1990; T.D. ATF–387, 62 FR 8377, Feb. 25, 1997; T.D. ATF–400, 63 FR 45003, Aug. 24, 1998; ATF No. 1, 68 FR 13792, Mar. 20, 2003; ATF 6F, 71 FR 46101, Aug. 11, 2006]


Please note that the law states "this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms"

This is where some people believe the law says the use of BP is legal for use in recreational activities (rocketry). When in fact it says the use of BP is exempt if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms.

The 50 pound exemption applies only to the use of Black Powder in Antique Firearms.

Will the ATF catch you and take legal action? Probably not, the ATF does not frequent our rocket launches. On the other hand, do something stupid with black powder and they will throw the book at you.
 
ClayD said:
that is absolutely understood i have had the same - questions. I have a lot to lose from being on the wrong side, any good citizen feels that way.
Unfortunately forums such as TRF rarely give any real resolve to your questions that are subjective like this
(not picking on rockets4kids, but his response is a good example of the subjective answer and a non-resolving answer.) "i have heard" hearsay.... with no qualificaitons where it was heard, or that the person who said it was an expert in federal regulation and its imposition on any US citizen. and then enciting a punishment if YOU dont have an leup.

Legal advice, is best saught through an attorney. what i would do, is write your questions down, and submit it to your states attorney general. they will quote, and cite the applicable federal and state requirements you need to follow. THey are the expert-- in what i said above.....(and your elected representation, who you can ask freely)- they will answer you.
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The States Attorney will only answer questions pertaining to State Law. You can get the same results by going to the City / County Attorney for the jurisdiction that you live in.

To get answers regarding Federal Law you need to consult with the Assistant U.S. Attorney (A.U.S.A.) for your area. Be prepared for them to give you a legal answer that you can not understand.

Another option is to draft a leter to the local BATFE Office and simply ask them the requirements that have to be met to store less than 1 pound of lack powder for hobby use at your residence and go with that.
 
fish701

At this time, I am also starting on DD and have had many of the same questions.

In my view, there are two legally conservative approaches (I am not a lawyer and I am most certainly not giving legal advice); a) get a LEUP and meticulously comply with all storage, transportation, and record keeping procedures and regulations, b) skip black powder and use a smokeless nitro-cellulose powder and commercially available rocket motor initiators such as the Q2G2. I think those who do not have a LEUP and are using black powder and home made igniter are taking legal risks that I am not personally willing to undertake. I am certainly not smart enough to know exactly where the legal line will be drawn, now or in the future, when some overly enthusiastic law enforcement officer pulls me over and want to have a look in all the boxes in the back of my truck.

The advice I would give? Learn as much as you can and then obey the law to the best of your ability. When it comes to interpreting the language of the law, I would take a simply approach and not consider the law from the perspective of what I want to accomplish in rocketry, but from the perspective of a police officer who is having a bad cell-phone argument with his third x-wife over alimony and child support payments while spilling his morning Joe all over the dry cleaning he just picked up for his forth wife on his way home from a graveyard shift because he just impaled his new personal car on the rather large hitch on the back of my out of state Texas truck.
 
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quickburst said:
purposes in antique firearms.
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David, are you an attorney? Did you recieve this Interpretation from an attorney, the atf, or any government entity like the DOJ?

Since your making a legal interpretation, I assume so?

I have had the same legal interpretation done. and varies drasically,
Infact your quote is from 27 CFR 555.141 which only applies to current permit holders. and exempts the black powder use from the permit requirements.

27 CFR 555.41, exempts people who are not engaged in interstate commerce with less than 50lbs of black powder from the requirement of obtaining a permit entirely. THis is why a dealer does not require your leup to sell you black powder. IF you puchase a LEUP required material, the DEALER IS REQUIRED PROOF OF YOUR LEUP by law(you should know this). Since the dealer doesnt require this as a seller you are not required as a purchaser.
(thats my story and i am sticking to it)
 
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rdbones said:
The States Attorney will only answer questions pertaining to State Law. You can get the same results by going to the City / County Attorney for the jurisdiction that you live in.

To get answers regarding Federal Law you need to consult with the Assistant U.S. Attorney (A.U.S.A.) for your area. Be prepared for them to give you a legal answer that you can not understand.

Another option is to draft a leter to the local BATFE Office and simply ask them the requirements that have to be met to store less than 1 pound of lack powder for hobby use at your residence and go with that.
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actually, the State Attorney General , is required to ensure that the states are in compliance with enforcement and aplication of federal law within the state. So, if there is a federal law in this case 27cfr555, it is the attorney generals requirement that state laws do not conflic, and are in compliance with this regulation. AND, likewise, can tell you as a constituant, if your activities are both federally and state compliant.
been there done that.--
 
rdbones said:
The States Attorney will only answer questions pertaining to State Law. You can get the same results by going to the City / County Attorney for the jurisdiction that you live in.

To get answers regarding Federal Law you need to consult with the Assistant U.S. Attorney (A.U.S.A.) for your area. Be prepared for them to give you a legal answer that you can not understand.

Another option is to draft a letter to the local BATFE Office and simply ask them the requirements that have to be met to store less than 1 pound of lack powder for hobby use at your residence and go with that.
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There are no opinions to be sought from BATFE. It's unnecessary, as the BATFE response to your question is on-line in the BATFE FAQ, in the code of federal regulations and in the orange book.

Unless you are using BP for antique firearms, or you are a hunter/shooter, you can't purchase, transport, possess, or use BP legally without a BATFE permit and you must have an authorized Type 4 magazine storage for it. Period. It doesn't have to make sense, but this is the federal law.

Federal laws are supposed to trump state and local laws, but this is not always what happens in practice. The 2nd amendment also provides the right of (adult) Americans citizens to bear arms, and there is no licensing requirements for simple weapons.

Many states assume that you go to a sporting goods store to purchase BP for firearms so you must be a hunter or a shooter, and those states do not require the sales person to make you jump through hoops to prove it. In those states, just about any adult can purchase BP without a hassle.

Other states with more restrictive laws that violate your legal 2nd amendment right to have a firearm by requiring you to have a state firearm permit, require sporting goods store employees to verify that you have the proper state or federal permit. In these states it's impossible to purchase BP without a state permit, FID card or BATFE permit.

These laws are unfair, ridiculous, and also violate the equal treatment under the law concept of the Constitution, but it is what it is.

It reminds me of another government policy: Don't Ask, Don't Tell!

See Quickburst's post above for further details.

Bob
 
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bobkrech said:
There are no opinions to be sought from BATFE. It's unnecessary, as the BATFE response to your question is on-line in the BATFE FAQ, in the code of federal regulations and in the orange book.

Unless you are using BP for antique firearms, or you are a hunter/shooter, you can't purchase, transport, possess, or use BP legally without a BATFE permit and you must have an authorized Type 4 magazine storage for it. Period. It doesn't have to make sense, but this is the federal law.

Federal laws are supposed to trump state and local laws, but this is not always what happens in practice. The 2nd amendment also provides the right of (adult) Americans citizens to bear arms, and there is no licensing requirements for simple weapons.

Many states assume that you go to a sporting goods store to purchase BP for firearms so you must be a hunter or a shooter, and those states do not require the sales person to make you jump through hoops to prove it. In those states, just about any adult can purchase BP without a hassle.

Other states with more restrictive laws that violate your legal 2nd amendment right to have a firearm by requiring you to have a state firearm permit, require sporting goods store employees to verify that you have the proper state or federal permit. In these states it's impossible to purchase BP without a state permit, FID card or BATFE permit.

These laws are unfair, ridiculous, and also violate the equal treatment under the law concept of the Constitution, but it is what it is.

It reminds me of another government policy: Don't Ask, Don't Tell!

See Quickburst's post above for further details.

Bob
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Bob, do you have a link to the faq, i cant find it
 
To the OP:
If you're flying down at NERRF then hook up with someone there for your BP needs. since you only fly occasionally don't bother with buying a can of BP.
Offer another flyer a couple of bucks for a days worth. Get your LEUP if you can.
It doesn't hurt to have it. You can buy e-matches and BP then and be legal.
It's not as bad as some of these guys may make it out to be. Log in. Log out. Log in if there are left overs from the day.( there are never left overs though)
That's your best bet.
 
ClayD said:
David, are you an attorney? Did you recieve this Interpretation from an attorney, the atf, or any government entity like the DOJ?

Since your making a legal interpretation, I assume so?

I have had the same legal interpretation done. and varies drasically,
Infact your quote is from 27 CFR 555.141 which only applies to current permit holders. and exempts the black powder use from the permit requirements.

27 CFR 555.41, exempts people who are not engaged in interstate commerce with less than 50lbs of black powder from the requirement of obtaining a permit entirely. THis is why a dealer does not require your leup to sell you black powder. IF you puchase a LEUP required material, the DEALER IS REQUIRED PROOF OF YOUR LEUP by law(you should know this). Since the dealer doesnt require this as a seller you are not required as a purchaser.
(thats my story and i am sticking to it)
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No I'm not an attourney, I did get the information from the ATF, and as a matter of fact the ATF is a division of the Department of Justice. Also, I'm not making a legal interpretation. I mearly state fact. After all many of the laws pertaining to explosives apply to my business. This puts me in a position where I need to know, not suppose.

The text is copied and pasted out of the ATF's Orange book. The orange book is a listing of Federal laws published by the ATF. FYI the ATF is the government agency that enforces the law as it applies to Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and explosives, and is in charge of enforcing "The Safe Explosives Act" put into place by President G. Bush post 9/11.

Read it for yourself here: https://www.accelix.com/atf/atf-orange-book.pdf

See page 43, Exemptions, Subpart H, 555.141 (10) (b)

Read more here: https://cfr.vlex.com/vid/555-141-exemptions-19675135#ixzz1IK2hUm9V



As far as CFR555.141 goes here is what is written there:
b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted from the term destructive devices in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

Sound familiar? Maybe this is where the ATF gets thier information?

The use of Black Powder is regulated by the ATF when it is not used in antique firearms. Period.

OK so the ATF regulates Black Powder. What are the chances of getting busted at a launch? I'd guess zero. But the guy that asked the question now knows the facts, rather than supposition. He is better equiped to make a responsible decision.
 
quickburst said:
No I'm not an attourney, I did get the information from the ATF, and as a matter of fact the ATF is a division of the Department of Justice.
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no, doj is department of justice, which is judicial brance, it interprets the law, the ATF is department of Treasury which is a subset of executive branch.

Legal enforcement is executive, legal interpretation is judicial.

of course the atf will assert themselves where not authorized if you let them...
 
I am going to disagree with Bob Krech (yeah, I know; WHOA!)

bobkrech said:
Unless you are using BP for antique firearms, or you are a hunter/shooter, you can't purchase, transport, possess, or use BP legally without a BATFE permit and you must have an authorized Type 4 magazine storage for it.Period..
Click to expand...

I don't have a link handy to identify the statute itself, but I believe there is a federal law that exempts black powder when used in model rocket motors.

Otherwise, we would all need LEUPs to be able to (legally) purchase MMX motors.

Thing is, that black powder is black powder is black powder, and it certainly doesn't know where or how it is going to be used. So a motor manufacturer basically is the one who effectively puts the magic identification on the black powder they use it (when making the motor) and "convert" it from bad powder to good powder. That is probably how the ejection charges purchased from Aerotech for use with rocket motors do not require LEUPs, storage lockers, or any of the other nonsense.

As long as this Aerotech product is available, your safest bet (if you do NOT otherwise need a LEUP or use black powder for other purposes) is to purchase your ejection charges that way. It is an expensive way (dollar-per-pound) to buy it but it is a cheap way (dollars-per-arrest) to stay on the good side of the law.

And I do not suggest that anyone buy a package of this from Aerotech, use it up, and try to "reload" the package with black powder poured from a separately-purchased can of bulk BP. Modern manufacturing of this stuff includes tracer materials so that residue can be identified back to the point of sale, and if you get picked up (and they want to make an example of you) and your tracers do not match the ones from Aerotech, then you're back in the deep stuff.

Everyone has to judge for themselves the likelihood of the feds deciding to put you in their crosshairs, and the need to dot every last i and cross every possible t. Odds of getting prosecuted/persecuted are miniscule. I just don't happen to like even that small level of risk (my family and job are way more important).

bobkrech said:
It doesn't have to make sense, but this is the federal law
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I agree with Bob 100.0 % on that one. Seems weird that we mere citizens do not have a more effective way to tell the politicians/lawmakers that they have screwd up, or that we have no recourse (other than civil disobedience) other than to comply.

(And no, I don't own any stock in Aerotech, nor is anyone there my relative, nor am I a paid spokes-person, or.....)
 
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ClayD said:
no, doj is department of justice, which is judicial brance, it interprets the law, the ATF is department of Treasury which is a subset of executive branch.

Legal enforcement is executive, legal interpretation is judicial.

of course the atf will assert themselves where not authorized if you let them...
Click to expand...

See: https://www.atf.gov/about/mission/

You might start doing a little research before you speak. The ATF or BATFE is a part of the Dept Of Justice.
 
powderburner said:
I am going to disagree with Bob Krech (yeah, I know; WHOA!)



I don't have a link handy to identify the statute itself, but I believe there is a federal law that exempts black powder when used in model rocket motors.

Otherwise, we would all need LEUPs to be able to (legally) purchase MMX motors.

Thing is, that black powder is black powder is black powder, and it certainly doesn't know where or how it is going to be used. So a motor manufacturer basically is the one who effectively puts the magic identification on the black powder they use it (when making the motor) and "convert" it from bad powder to good powder. That is probably how the ejection charges purchased from Aerotech for use with rocket motors do not require LEUPs, storage lockers, or any of the other nonsense.

As long as this Aerotech product is available, your safest bet (if you do NOT otherwise need a LEUP or use black powder for other purposes) is to purchase your ejection charges that way. It is an expensive way (dollar-per-pound) to buy it but it is a cheap way (dollars-per-arrest) to stay on the good side of the law.

And I do not suggest that anyone buy a package of this from Aerotech, use it up, and try to "reload" the package with black powder poured from a separately-purchased can of bulk BP. Modern manufacturing of this stuff includes tracer materials so that residue can be identified back to the point of sale, and if you get picked up (and they want to make an example of you) and your tracers do not match the ones from Aerotech, then you're back in the deep stuff.

Everyone has to judge for themselves the likelihood of the feds deciding to put you in their crosshairs, and the need to dot every last i and cross every possible t. Odds of getting prosecuted/persecuted are miniscule. I just don't happen to like even that small level of risk (my family and job are way more important).



I agree with Bob 100.0 % on that one. Seems weird that we mere citizens do not have a more effective way to tell the politicians/lawmakers that they have screwd up, or that we have no recourse (other than civil disobedience) other than to comply.

(And no, I don't own any stock in Aerotech, nor is anyone there my relative, nor am I a paid spokes-person, or.....)
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"That is probably how the ejection charges purchased from Aerotech for use with rocket motors do not require LEUPs, storage lockers, or any of the other nonsense."
Aerotech, Estes, Quest and other manufacturers get away with it because the ATF chooses to ignore it. Not because the ATF doesn't have a law to enforce, and truth is the ATF has a history of doing this.

If you will remember there was a time when the ATF chose to ignore APCP, and this went on for years. Post 9/11 the ATF chose to enforce the "list of explosives", due to the Safe Explosives Act. This is why we had so much trouble getting motors, LEUP"S were needed for motor purchases. This turn around by the ATF became the trigger for the NAR/TRA lawsuit.

There is a DOT exemption for small quantities of black powder used for ejection charges in manufactured model rocket motors. This exemption also exists in the DMM (domestic mail manual) used by the Post Office. However DOT does not enforce the manufacture of low explosives. They only approve/disapprove shipping regulations.

Black Powder is not always Black Powder. The burn rate of the Estes propellant is much slower than granulated black powder, making it less of a risk. One must compare apples with apples. The chemistry for Goex 4F Black Powder is not the same as Estes Black powder propellant. If it were, estes motors would explode upon ignition each and every time.
 
quickburst said:
See: https://www.atf.gov/about/mission/

You might start doing a little research before you speak. The ATF or BATFE is a part of the Dept Of Justice.
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well, i appologize, all the papers in my file from the 70's has Department of treasury on the top of them.... Its not ignorance (lack of willingness to understand) - but a simple case of not being updated. Looks like its gone back and fourth....(you can get a timeline on wiki of all the back and fourth-but is reader beware.. mainfly full of ****)

remembering, all the changes here happened in 74 and 75. (most of the industry curculars, are signed by rex davis.)

Bob. i wholey disagree with your statement:
Originally Posted by bobkrech
"It doesn't have to make sense, but this is the federal law "
Politics may never make sense... this is like how to build a rocket, "no your doing it wrong" is everywhere.... BUT LAW MUST ALWAYS STAND REASON.:gavel: it's a political check and balance....

Sure you can politically have all the dumb laws you want. BUT, you dont want a bad precident of your dumb laws being overturned.(i remember some executive recently signing a bunch of waivers to allow people out of some law...)

The atf wont ensue enforcement of this law to the level of defining weather or not it is or isnt confined to firearms. (they dont want to loose any power if a district judge makes an interpretation they dont like) (however right or wrong the judge would be either direction).... Thier expressed opinion can be whatever political nonsense they want it to be - and doesnt have to make sense. They simply are dumber or smarter than that.. however you want to take it...
 
Please don't take this as sarcastic or argumentative. But two things come to mind as I've read all this.

A) In the time skimming through this post, I could have gone to the local hardware store, bought some BP substitute and packing materials. In another few minutes I'd have my ejection charges ready to go. With no need for an attorney down the road. Point being, how much extra time or effort does it take to make even over the counter low end Pyr0dex or Triple-7even make a parachute safely eject?

B) How much attention do we need to attract on this subject to get more acronyms involved? If you won't like the answer, don't ask.

BTW, Speaking of branches, look into what happened with FISA and USSID 18. Political stuff negated, the realities are what they are. "...badges, we need to stinkin' badges..."
 
Scott, sarcastic and argumentative.. :)

Wife and kids hit the park .. i am enjoying cold brew, smoking ribs, and uhhh... makin a rocket...

My problem with this thread simply is this. - Black Powder, is subjective the risk each person is willing to take, both legaly and the adverse effects of it.
the idea you go to a gun store and buy it, may be a legal purchase, and may be an unlawful use....as long as you dont break the law, who knows.
but telling someone to say your using it for firearms or shooting, can get them in real trouble, escpecialy if they commit purgery doing so.

How much attention do we need to attract on this subject to get more acronyms involved? IMO if we lie this is worse.. my opinion...
 
ClayD said:
Scott, sarcastic and argumentative.. :)

Wife and kids hit the park .. i am enjoying cold brew, smoking ribs, and uhhh... makin a rocket...

My problem with this thread simply is this. - Black Powder, is subjective the risk each person is willing to take, both legaly and the adverse effects of it.
the idea you go to a gun store and buy it, may be a legal purchase, and may be an unlawful use....as long as you dont break the law, who knows.
but telling someone to say your using it for firearms or shooting, can get them in real trouble, escpecialy if they commit purgery doing so.

How much attention do we need to attract on this subject to get more acronyms involved? IMO if we lie this is worse.. my opinion...
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. However the well versed should know and understand the risks.
 
Scott Evil said:
In the time skimming through this post, I could have gone to the local hardware store, bought some BP substitute...
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Be aware that Pyrodex still contains KNO3, and as a mixture that includes it, it is also on the list of controlled "explosives"

And smokeless propellants are legal for use in firearms, but other uses may be equally off-limits and should be checked with a lawyer

Again, everyone has to judge for themselves the likelihood of the feds deciding to put you in their crosshairs, and the need to dot every last i and cross every possible t. Odds of getting prosecuted/persecuted are miniscule. I just don't happen to like even that small level of risk
 
powderburner said:
....I don't have a link handy to identify the statute itself, but I believe there is a federal law that exempts black powder when used in model rocket motors.

Otherwise, we would all need LEUPs to be able to (legally) purchase MMX motors......
Click to expand...
27CFR555.141-- Sec. 555.141 Exemptions.

(10) Model rocket motors that meet all of the following criteria--
(i) Consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant*, black
powder, or other similar low explosives;
(ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams of total propellant weight; and
(iii) Are designed as single-use motors or as reload kits capable of
reloading no more than 62.5 grams of propellant into a reusable motor
casing.
(b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons
required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with
respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to
exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills,
quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is
intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural
purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or
antique devices, as exempted from the term ``destructive devices'' in 18
U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

* Should be removed as per court decision.

The only wiggle for AT BP refills I can fin is a generous interpretation of 27CFR555.141(a)(10)(iii) above. It's certainly not 27CFR555.141(b) above.

Bob
 
NRA has 8,000,000 members who vote. There are 60,000,000 million gun owners who vote. They can elect or prevent the election of any politican if they so desire. They collectively can deliver $1,000,000,000 in a week without flinching, so they get any legislative exemptions they want.

NAR and TRA combined have ~6,000 members, not all adult voters. It took us 10 years to raise $800,000 or so to overturn a bad piece of legislation on APCP. We can't influence any elections, so we have to get the support of the masses (which we didn't), or know the technical areas where the law is in error, and have to make it so blantantly obvious to a non-hobbist, to get it overruled in court. Otherwise all we get is hassled.

If you want to get the BP law overturned in court, go out and raise a few million dollars, get a few dozen good lawyers and challenge them in court. You'll probably win, and then you can claim bragging rights. Until that day happens, don't ask, don't tell is the modus operandi when it comes to BP.

You can make all the wise guy comments you want about what you think the BP law should be, but it doesn't count. Develop an attitude with a BATFE agent and get them PO'ed, or run into a BATFE agent trying to move up, and you will be hassled. They'll enforce the law, as written, because it's the law.

Bob
 

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