Thinking about some tube-y and ring-y designs...

Voting time!

I created some decals for the tube fins, then also realized I could try it with tube fins on the body instead. I think I know which I prefer, but your votes are appreciated. That's a 1 and a 2 on top and bottom, respectively.

Looks really cool! I am wondering if you tweak the profile of the red fins, just round them up to look more like the shape of the biohazard symbol curves, how would that look? You don't have to match the shape exactly, but try a shape somewhat inspired by the symbol, if that makes sense. Almost like a sickle or scythe shape, you know? that would really frame the ring and tie in with them biohazard theme and logo.

neil_w said:

Voting time!

I created some decals for the tube fins, then also realized I could try it with tube fins on the body instead. I think I know which I prefer, but your votes are appreciated. That's a 1 and a 2 on top and bottom, respectively.

Click to expand...

I like #1

GlenP said:

Looks really cool! I am wondering if you tweak the profile of the red fins, just round them up to look more like the shape of the biohazard symbol curves, how would that look? You don't have to match the shape exactly, but try a shape somewhat inspired by the symbol, if that makes sense. Almost like a sickle or scythe shape, you know? that would really frame the ring and tie in with them biohazard theme and logo.

Click to expand...

I wish I had an excuse for not having thought of that. Getting the curve just right is tricky. Here are two stabs at it:



I think that's an improvement (and I'm having a hard time looking at the old angular version now). I'm not sure either of the above is actually optimal, I would play a bit more for sure. And I would love to know the best way to build those fins. One piece or two? Which way should the grain go? I'll definitely be papering these for strength, but I'd want to make sure the fundamental construction is solid. With the angles and straight lines it'd be easy, the curve throws me a.... well, you know.

Also curious to hear from Cabernut if this in any way captures what he was thinking with regard to the biohazard symbol. I think with the curved fins it sort of does.

yes, now you're talking! I like it. You could always make the fin from multiple parts, two or three, to get the grain direction more or less tangent to the outer curve. Papering them would really help also. Print out that biohazard logo really large and try to use that shape, it almost looks like some kind of alien fingers reaching out to grab you if not infect you with some sort of symbiote.

neil_w said:

...Also curious to hear from Cabernut if this in any way captures what he was thinking with regard to the biohazard symbol. I think with the curved fins it sort of does.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm not exactly sure what I was thinking either. But you've come up with a cool design that captures a "3D" interpretation of a 2D symbol. This one looks balanced design-wise. I prefer the first of these two.

I do have a vague design in mind though, can't easily draw it out on paper or even in OR, I might have give Blender a shot, see how easy or not it is to do just design work with that.

Cabernut said:

I do have a vague design in mind though, can't easily draw it out on paper or even in OR, I might have give Blender a shot, see how easy or not it is to do just design work with that.

Click to expand...

I've come to peace with working within OR's limitations, but do sometimes wish I had something better just purely for design and visualization. But I just can't hack general purpose 3D rendering programs.

Please post if you come up with anything interesting!

I think this one is the winner (ORK file attached below):


It might get tweaked a bit, but basically that's it. This will be my scratch build for this year (yes, I'm at about a one-a-year pace). I'll do a build thread eventually, but probably will start it only after I've gotten all the preliminary work done, and get to the "good stuff". So it'll be a while. Anyone have strong opinions about whether builds such as this should go in the LPR or the Scratch Builds forum?

I added an index to the first post in the thread showing all the designs that were discussed. For what it's worth.

Thanks for all the feedback, and please post anything else interesting you come up with!

neil_w said:

And I would love to know the best way to build those fins. One piece or two? Which way should the grain go? I'll definitely be papering these for strength, but I'd want to make sure the fundamental construction is solid. With the angles and straight lines it'd be easy, the curve throws me a.... well, you know.

Click to expand...

OK, I'm a broken record but: outsource. These would be a snap to laser cut. And as to the grain direction, use 1/16 plywood and don't worry about it. My $0.02.

Hey, I like it! #2 was my first choice but these last two are sweet.

My suggestion for the rounded fins would be to do two parts with the grain following the long axis of each part. Rough them out oversize and trim/sand to shape. I think that papering should add enough strength.

jqavins said:

OK, I'm a broken record but: outsource. These would be a snap to laser cut. And as to the grain direction, use 1/16 plywood and don't worry about it. My $0.02.

Click to expand...

Maybe. Looks like the design can handle the extra weight of the plywood, and it sure as heck would be strong. I might feel a compulsion to go TTW with those fins in that case because I don't trust 1/16" surface bonds too much (although those fins are somewhat anchored into position by the ring, so that may not be an issue here.)

Another thought I had was layering two pieces of 1/16" balsa with perpendicular grain to make my own lightweight ply.

I'll go see what it would cost to get this stuff laser cut; I actually have no idea. Some of the other designs in this thread, if I choose to build them, will really need laser cutting to be done right, so I suppose I should go learn.

Screaminhelo said:

My suggestion for the rounded fins would be to do two parts with the grain following the long axis of each part. Rough them out oversize and trim/sand to shape. I think that papering should add enough strength.

Click to expand...

That's my most likely route, if I don't laser-cut.

You could also make those little strake black fins up front match the curved pointy shape of the red fins, following the biohazard logo theme. looks awesome.

GlenP said:

You could also make those little strake black fins up front match the curved pointy shape of the red fins, following the biohazard logo theme. looks awesome.

Click to expand...

Not sure exactly the best way to do this, so here's my first take. Then the rear fins seemed out of place in their straightness, so I curved them too. It's interesting, dunno if I like it better or not. Possibly the canards could also be reversed, and point forwards instead of backwards (haven't tried that yet). What do you think? I'm undecided, although I definitely understand the thinking.



Laser cutting would be starting to look a lot more attractive if I went this route...

[edit: tweaked the rear fins some more and moved the tube fins back a bit]

Now you are getting into the spirit of it. This is pretty fun, and you keep inspiring me with more ideas, but I will leave you with one last concept and let you take it from here. Thanks for entertaining the ideas and for sharing your cool evolving designs.

Those rear fins with the tip tubes, could you swap them out for ring fins? I think you had a few earlier concepts very similar to this and maybe have already decided against interlocking rings, but here the aft rings don't have to interlock, only with the tip tubes, so that might simplify it a little. Still a lot of ring cutting involved that you might not want to deal with. Here is a very rough sketch of the idea. You could taper them even smaller towards the tip tubes so they have a more curvy shape as well.



the other concept that goes along with the biohazard theme is the hypodermic needle, those tip tubes could be shaped with a base plate and a dowel through the middle to sort of caricature a syringe/needle.

That is quite interesting, and has some good potential. But I'm going to hold off on that for two reasons:
1) I think it might be just a bit "too much" for this design (for my taste, anyway.)
2) I can't properly visualize it with software. That may sound stupid, but for my brain being able to see these designs in glorious renderings is a key enabler for me in this whole venture.

I am thinking about the needles, though. Having them extend from the front of the tube fins sounds... interesting. I'm done with OR for the night, but I'll fiddle with that on my next opportunity.

In the meantime, since I do think I like this curved version best, I'm shopping around for a laser cutting service, trying to get an idea how much it'll cost. If anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.

neil_w said:

...I am thinking about the needles, though. Having them extend from the front of the tube fins sounds... interesting.

Click to expand...

or think tranquilizer dart. Take a look at the fin pods on the Estes Odyssey for some inspiration. LEGO made a DINO set of kits a while back and they had these little green tranq darts that you could also look up some images. Maybe use a clear plastic tube, paint graduation lines on it and paint the inside of it slime green.

Yeah, I was thinking of the Odyssey too. Dunno if I'm gonna go there with this design but I will definitely play with some possibilities in OR. At this point I feel like the design doesn't really need anything more, but it's fun to play with all this stuff.

Inspired by this conversation, I've sketched up another biohazard design in RockSim (which does simulate tube fins and ringtails.) So far it's a only rough first concept.

For the three side rings, the inner surfaces are entered as tube fins but the outer surfaces are not, so they don't add to stability as they otherwise would. What I can't show in RocSim is that I would add 3D printed rounded covers fore and aft on the on the side lobes, so the skinny space between the rings is closed off.

At the moment I'm struggling with a RocSim issue where the 2-D and 3-D images don't match. To get the pictures above I had to take screen snaps of the intended design for the 2-D, then change it for the 3-D. I'll ask Tim for help.

At the moment, very rough, it sims out at just under 630 feet on an E-9, so not a stellar performer. But this one is all about the look, so as long as it flies It'll to.

Very cool, and should be fun to construct. Great idea to use the 3d printing for those filler pieces.

Two thoughts:
1) to really capture the last 1% of the logo, you could cut out small strips out the the ends of each tube fin (so the whole thing would be a "C" rather than an "O". Since you'll have the second tube on the inside (you could seal the edges of the two tubes together), plus the 3D-printed inserts, the whole thing could be made quite solid.
2) Consider making the ring (blue in the Rocksim pictures) a slightly different length than the tube fins. I'd go slightly shorter, and then center it against the tube fins.

Now it's Cabernut's turn to do something here, since he suggested it. We can have a fleet of biohazards!

neil_w said:

...
Now it's Cabernut's turn to do something here, since he suggested it. We can have a fleet of biohazards!

Click to expand...

Challenge accepted. :handshake:

It's nice to see what can be done with RockSim. I'm looking forward to what comes of these designs so far.

Cabernut said:

Challenge accepted. :handshake:

Click to expand...

It's nice to see what can be done with RockSim. I'm looking forward to what comes of these designs so far.

Click to expand...

I'm in planning stages right now, mainly selecting a laser cutting service and learning how to prepare the files. I expect this build to keep me going in the summer at least, I work deliberately.

Kind of an interesting exercise, taking an abstract concept and seeing different interpretations as rocket designs....

Here is a quick 3d sketch of my take on the biohazard theme.
I might try a cardboard mock-up at some point and do a swing test to get a general idea of stability.



I modeled & rendered this in LightWave 3D 6.0. Blender is "better" but has a huge learning curve. I'm still not used to it yet.

edit: the fins wouldn't be that thick, I just made them that way so they're easier to handle in LW3D

Love it!

Cabernut said:

Here is a quick 3d sketch of my take on the biohazard theme.

Click to expand...

Nice. Very nice indeed.

Woke up at 4:30 AM with these two ideas, so I had to throw them together and see. I am now pretty much committed to laser-cutting the fins for this guy.

The two changes are (1) forward-swept the canard fins, and (2) added the little winglets on the outside of the tube fins.

I definitely like (1), not sure about (2). Those winglets would be a pain for painting, to be sure; I would also probably shorten the supporting fins if I keep them in.


Opinions?

I like the idea of the winglets. They seem to be almost there. Maybe some tweaking of the shape and the curve of the white painted part of the tubes should go with the lines of the fins surrounding it.

This one is going great so far. JumpJet, are you watching? Looks like it would make a great kit.

I think I was able to fix the winglet and fin proportions, but will need to take some time to figure out how to adapt the paint (always the most torturous task for me anyway). Will post another pic when I have something.

I definitely like the forward swept canards, as they fit thematically with the forward sweep of the ring pylons, and even the aft fins, while rear swept, have a sort of forward curve. I'm also not so sure about the winglets; they're OK and seem to continue the forward sweep theme, but maybe enough is enough. My first thought was to put two such forward swept winglets on each pod 120 degrees apart. Then I fleetingly thought of mini pods (made from launch lugs) on the winglets, and then I pimp slapped myself; where does it stop?

If you do stick with the winglets, how about this: continue the leading edge and training edge curves as they turn and sweep forward, so that the pods become items added to a single fin. (Forgive my pathetic hand drawing; It should be good enough to get the idea across.) It could even be built this way; have the fins cut with slots that interlock with slots in the pod it'll go together in a snap.

jqavins said:

I definitely like the forward swept canards, as they fit thematically with the forward sweep of the ring pylons, and even the aft fins, while rear swept, have a sort of forward curve. I'm also not so sure about the winglets; they're OK and seem to continue the forward sweep theme, but maybe enough is enough.

Click to expand...

After staring a bit more I have come to the same conclusions. I actually like the winglets, but what I don't like is that they really make it a different design.

I'm calling this "final", which means (of course) that it'll change several more times before I build it:

It looks like there might be a minimum price on the laser cutting job, so I could get a lot more fins without paying for any more than the balsa. Would anyone out there want a set of Biohazard fins (above design)? Cost of balsa and shipping only.

In the future I guess I'll have to group together an assortment of jobs to avoid this issue.