Obtaining Black Powder in the UK

Hi,

I about to embark on my first dual deploy rocket (Blackhawk 38mm)
I will be in need of some Black Powder which I dont believe is readily availble over here.
Someone has suggested buying some fireworks (bangers) I just wondered if its as simple as cutting them open and tapping the powder out?

Sorry may be a dumb question!!

Regards
Darren

Oi! Um.... damn. I'm sorry. Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I hope someone in the UK can point you in the right direction. If totally unavailable over there, you may want to look into a CO2-based deployment option? I don't know. Sorry, man.


Later!

--Coop

Disregarding the danger of disassembling fireworks, there is no telling what type of BP could be in them. Also your thread name was very misleading

I'm assuming what you call "bangers" in the UK are what we refer to as firecrackers over here. If so, you definitely do not want to cut them open and collect the power -- firecrackers, at least here, contain flash powder, not black powder. The two are entirely different, and flash powder isn't something to be messed with.

I'd suggest contacting the folks in UKRA and asking them. They'll know the legalities of rocketry on your side of the pond.

-Kevin

Hi edwinshap1, yes you are right it is misleading but it wont let me change it?

edwinshap1 said:

Disregarding the danger of disassembling fireworks, there is no telling what type of BP could be in them. Also your thread name was very misleading

Click to expand...

I've changed the thread title for you.

To buy and/or store black powder over here, you need an Explosives Licence from the police, unfortuantely. They're not that hard to obtain (similar to getting a shotgun licence). Once you have one of these, and an RCA document (which covers legal transportation of it), you can buy it from gun shops over here. UKRA has a bit more information here -https://www.ukra.org.uk/legal.

Cheers,
Phil

Thanks phil, appreciate your help, seems a bit of a nightmare for a couple of grams!

Does anyone know if smokeless powder (propellant powder) would do the job as the does not require certifiaction over here?

look in the yellow pages and try to find a reputable ye olde gun shoppe. If there were anyone who knows, that would be it.
Muzzleloading is still viable in the UK so blackpowder should be available somewhere. Pyrodex also works (to a lesser extent, search on here to find threads). If all you can get are the Pyrodex pellets DO NOT break them apart to get at the powder, it doesnt work, they are made for gun use only.

are single use at composite motors available to you?

if so, buy those, pull the rubber cap off and remove the bp and put the cap back on. then use the ejectionless motor in a 29mm priority stealth from here (click on free stuff):

https://www.artapplewhite.com/

Hi Derek,

The only black powder motors I can source locally are estes motors which obviously dont have caps so would mean me custting them up which I can only assume is not a good idea!
I've also called a few gun shops today and they dont stock BP, they say they dont have any call for it these days, they did say they do stock smokeless powder (propellent) which they would sell over the counter (no restictions on purchase or storage etc) but I'm not sure it would do the job of ejecting the parachute?

I live in New York State where BP is almost as difficult to find (as well as guns and ammo, but that's a different issue). I did manage to secure some and did explosion comparisons (Independence Day in the US is a good day to ground test deployment devices) between 2 grams of 3-F BP and 2 grams of "777 pyrodex" and the results were not good. The BP displaced a lot more air.

There have been other articles about how to make pyrodex work better through the use of more restrictive containment of the charge (i.e., sealing in a plastic chamber so all of the charge ignites), but most people agree that BP is your better choice.

Most, if not all US-based distributors will not ship outside the US, so if you are forced to use pyrodex, you may want to increase your charge about 50% to compensate. If you use 2 grams of BP...use 3 grams of pyrodex. Instead of using masking tape to hold your charge in place, use electrical or duct tape and a lot of wadding.

Thanks Evan, I think I will be forced to use pyrodex, I have just sent an enquiry to the local gun shop and will see if they stock it

darrena said:

Thanks Evan, I think I will be forced to use pyrodex, I have just sent an enquiry to the local gun shop and will see if they stock it

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Pyrodex is a blackpowder substitute, and must be used differently. Most importantly, you must confine the Pyrodex in something tight, in order to get any usable ejection pressure.

There are those who use it, but it requires adequate ground testing.

-Kevin

troj said:

Pyrodex is a blackpowder substitute, and must be used differently. Most importantly, you must confine the Pyrodex in something tight, in order to get any usable ejection pressure.

There are those who use it, but it requires adequate ground testing...

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Please remember that there are different types of granular Pyrodex. I seem to recall that most people who use granular Pyrodex use "Pyrodex P".

Check out this link for some more information on how to contain and use Pyrodex P for ejection charges: https://www.pratthobbies.com/info_pages/pyrodex/pyrotest.htm

Finally, I have heard that some people have had good results with another product from Hodgdon targeting the muzzle-loader community called "Triple Seven".

In any case, no matter what you end up selecting you should always perform adequate ground testing to make sure that everything will work as expected after the rocket has been launched.

Good luck.

Cor

When people refer to "smokeless black powder" they often refer to products like 777 aka pyrodex. Troj and Cruiten are both right. The product needs to be wrapped real tight in some sort of plastic tape to get a good ignition. The reason is that it burns slower than BP and if it explodes too soon, it will not completely consume all the product, but instead blow some of it out. This reduces the explosion. Triple 7, or 777 is decent stuff, but you should ground test both the amount of 777 and the containers you put the charge in.

Pyrodex works well in muzzle loading rifles because the gun barrel along with the projectile provide enough containment to consume all the powder. Keep that in mind as you test your BP substitute.

Not the ideal situation, but there are those who have been able to make it work.

Try giving these peeps a call
https://www.black-powder.co.uk/

EeebeeE said:

Most, if not all US-based distributors will not ship outside the US, so if you are forced to use pyrodex, you may want to increase your charge about 50% to compensate. If you use 2 grams of BP...use 3 grams of pyrodex.

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Adding more Pyrodex does little to increase pressure. You are correct in observing that fire propagates slower in Pyrodex than FFFFG. This means that only a small amount burns, and the rest scatters before it has a chance to ignite. Adding more Pyrodex to your charge simply means that more of it scatters. It's kind of like old shotgun fission bomb--adding more uranium to it produces no increase in yield.

If you do contain Pyrodex, it releases more energy per gram than BP. I have used coat-hanger cardboard tube with wood plugs stuck on with carpenter's glue. A 1.2 gram charge took out the motor mount from a 3" rocket in ground testing: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?37422-R-C-deployment&p=349158#post349158 . You can see the entire launcher jump in the air twice: once when the legs spring back from the initial explosion, and again when the nosecone extends the shock cord all the way and pulls on it. The rocket wants to fly on just the ejection charge :=)

Ari.

We I have no confirmed that I can pick up Pyrodex powder in a granular form within 30 miles of home.
From Iter's post it certainly looks like it would do the job with plenty of ground testing, Iter I'm not familiar with cardboard tubing from a coat hanger, what sort of diameter is that?
Will Pyrodex ignite with a standard estes ignitor wired up or does it need somthin with a little more punch?

Dry cleaners here use disposable metal-wire coat hangers when they return cloths to you. If they are hanging a pair of pants or a sweater, the wire is too wak and to prevent it from bending, they thread a cardboard tube on the wire. It's about 3/8" in diameter. The size is of little importance. The pertinent feature is the tensile strength. Wall thickness is about 1/16 or 3/32 and the cardboard is relatively soft. It is stronger than Estes BT but weaker than Estes motor core. In fact, you can probably use burned-out 13mm Estes motors if you have a bunch of them.

I have no experience with Estes igniters in this application. My experiments use reverse-biased tantalum capacitors. Estes igniters in general have a reputation for low reliability. If you can get them, you may want to experiment with Quest igniters which seem to have a more reliable reputation.

Ari.

I have used an Estes igniter to set off both BP and pyrodex when doing ground tests. I am fairly sure any nichrome wire will ignite it for testing, but you will want an e-match for actual deployment when you fly because the e-match takes a lot less amperage to deploy.

If you have used the Estes launch controls that work off of 4 AA batteries, the flashlight bulb provides enough resistance to prevent the nichrome wire from heating up too much. But with an e-match, when you put the safety key in, you do not have to hit the launch button...the e-match ignites practically immediately when the key completes the circuit. I do not think the typical 9V battery used in most altimeters has enough amperage to ignite a nichrome igniter.

If cardboard tube and wooden plugs work to ensure a good ignition of the pyrodex, then anything should do. The coat-hanger cardboard walls are about as thick as a cardboard launch lug 1/4" in diameter, which, with a 1" long segment and wooden plugs could be used for smaller rockets. For a larger rocket, you might even be able to use a plastic cigar tube with plugs.

Check out this article about using pyrodex as your ejection charge:
https://www.pratthobbies.com/info_pages/pyrodex/pyrotest.htm

Should give you an idea on what you need to do.

Yes an estes solar igniter can light pyrodex. My former NAR teammate designed a spider ignition system that used pyrodex and a single igniter to light clusters.

kj

I use centrifuge tubes that I get from Ebay. I did some ground testing with both FFFFG black powder and Pyrodex. While the Pyrodex wasn't nearly as energetic, I think it could be used in the right quantities.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...089#post432089

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Given the current political climate in the US, especially in the more politically liberal states, we are probably going to have to get used to working with this stuff. This is a good set of videos. Thanks.

Thanks guys, some great help here.
I actually managed to find some centrifuge tubes, what size do you recon you would need for a Blackhawk 38mm 5ml or 10ml?

darrena said:

Thanks guys, some great help here.
I actually managed to find some centrifuge tubes, what size do you recon you would need for a Blackhawk 38mm 5ml or 10ml?

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The Blackhawk 38 is smaller than my Milestone. I'm using 2ml centrifuge tubes for it. The bottom one in the last photo has 0.5 grams in it, and the upper one has 0.7 grams. I've been told you can put up to 2 grams in a 2ml tube. I packed dog barf on top of the BP to take up the space, make sure the Q2G2 ignitor is in the BP, and to compress it a little. I also got some 5ml tubes in case I need them for some bigger projects.

I use Estes ignitors for ground testing, and Quest Q2G2 ignitors for actual flights. I drilled holes in the tubes and glued them in with a hot glue gun.

There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread:

• Pyrodex is the brand name of the first black powder substitute. Many people use it as a generic term to apply to all black power substitutes, but this is both incorrect and dangerous.
  
• Black Powder (and BP substitutes) are always measured by volume, and never by weight.
  
• Pyrodex is formulated to perform identically to black powder.
  
• Pyrodex is much less dense than BP, so a charge of Pyrodex (properly measured my volume) will weigh considerably less than an equal charge of BP.
  
• The original formulation of Pyrodex was more powerful (again, by volume) than BP, requiring a reduced charge to match BP performance. However, this is no longer the case.
  
• Other BP substitutes (such as 777) are substantially more powerful than BP/Pyrodex.
  
• The only issue with using BP substitutes or smokeless powder is that they must be contained.
  

Far and away the best method of containment is a section of surgical tubing with the ends sealed by zip-ties. When the charge fires, the surgical tubing expands like a balloon containing the heat and powder, allowing most if not all of the charge to burn completely before the surgical tubing bursts.

HI,

What is dog barf as if you search for this in the UK it comes up with dog food?

darrena said:

HI,

What is dog barf as if you search for this in the UK it comes up with dog food?

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"Dog Barf" is blow-in attic insulation; it's something like shredded paper treated with a flame-retardant chemical to keep your attic from lighting on fire. This flame retardant, coupled with the insulative properties, makes it an effective wadding to protect parachutes and the like from ejection charges.