Why join the NAR as a casual low power sport flyer?

I am a casual low power sport flyer / builder. Rarely anything bigger than an 18mm C engine.

I went to look into joining the NAR the other day and with respect I found it to be a bit pricey!

What can the NAR bring to the table for me for just under $70.00 a year?

6 magazines per year.
Insurance. This one is key if you're not a member of another org (TRA, CAR, etc.) We have seen where a LPR has done serious damage to persons and property. Having the org's insurance available can be a very good thing.
I had listed NAR launches too but I think you can attend most of those without being a member.

Helps support an organization that got rocket motors deregulated by the BATFE. Join a community of like-minded hobbyists.

heada said:

... We have seen where a LPR has done serious damage to persons and property.

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I could let my imagination run wild here, but do we have access to a record of these incidents?

Besides the reasons already mentioned, the NAR provides mentored certification for high power. As you say, at your current level of involvement this is not an inducement for you to join now. Maybe in the future ? I would encourage you to seek out and attend a club launch sometime to get a different perspective. Many of us have found flying with a group adds a lot of enjoyment to our hobby. You can search for the locals here:

https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/

https://www.tripoli.org/Prefectures

So I think the biggest reasons for joining NAR (or TRA for that matter) can be pretty well summed up in that it allows you to be better connected with other members of the rocketry community, which allows you to get stuff from other members of the group, and for the group as a whole to get things that benefit you from outside the group.

Along the lines of the first point are things like Sport Rocketry (the NAR magazine), access to local clubs, mentoring to improve your rocketry skills and knowledge, and national events like NSL, NARAM, and NARCon. These allow you to connect better with the hobby, find friends with similar interests, learn new things about rocketry, and have some fun flying rockets with friends and strangers.

For the second point, this is where the benefits can at first seem a little bit less tangible. NAR provides insurance for flyers in the (incredibly unlikely, but still possible) event that something goes wrong while you are flying a rocket, and either someone gets hurt or someone's property is damaged. The NAR is also responsible for a lot of the outreach for the hobby, exposing it to new people, and putting forward the image of model rocketry as a safe, fun, and family-friendly hobby for everyone. They also do some amount of lobbying and legal work, to ensure that the hobby remains accessible for those who love it. We recently had the 10th anniversary of our victory in the ATF case that clarified that APCP propellant is not an explosive and should not be regulated as such. Those sorts of efforts wouldn't be possible without membership dues of NAR and TRA members going to pay for the lawyers that represented our hobby.

I am a high power flyer. However, you'll note that I haven't listed that as a major reason to join NAR or TRA. Sure, for a lot of people, maintaining their certification is the primary reason they're a member. For me, I see the value in an organization that shares my values regarding the hobby, allows me to connect with other people who love rocketry, and makes sure I can keep having fun, regardless of whether or not I need to be a member to fly whatever my current project is, from the tiny Estes Mosquito I'll probably lose in the tall grass, to the M motor behemoth with 2 GPS trackers so I don't lose it in the sky.

Funkworks said:

I could let my imagination run wild here, but do we have access to a record of these incidents?

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I don't know about official records but about 10 years ago a scout died due to a low power rocket hitting him and causing fatal wounds. There are also pictures on the forum of a low power rocket half embedded in the roof of a vendor's trailer. Just 2 examples of personal injury and property damage.

It's very rare but it does happen.

Some vendors also give discounts to NAR members.

heada said:

Insurance. This one is key if you're not a member of another org (TRA, CAR, etc.) We have seen where a LPR has done serious damage to persons and property. Having the org's insurance available can be a very good thing.

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That right there is your PRIMARY benefit provided by your dues.

Without it you stand to lose years in litigation and income if a mishap occurs, especially in the era where every ambulance chaser has an app for that. Doesn't really have to be something like personal injury, either. Could be a brush fire and a lost crop, lost house, or other property damage like a broken windshield or damaged roof. Would be pretty easy to argue that you INTENTIONALLY decided to forego several commercial choices, thereby negligently making yourself a danger to society as a whole. Might not stick, but YOU bear the cost until it's adjudicated otherwise. For under $100/year, why play 'bet your future' against the possibility of a mishap? Never mind if your mishap actually injures someone......

Just try to price that same level of insurance for yourself alone for under the annual cost provided by NAR or TRA.

If insurance on your car wasn't mandated by law, would you pass on it anyway? I, for one, am not independently wealthy enough to be self insuring on anything!

I don't understand people who fly rockets of any class and don't belong to NAR or Tripoli to take advantage of the insurance.

Funkworks said:

I could let my imagination run wild here, but do we have access to a record of these incidents?

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Here’s one:

https://www.pe.com/2015/11/16/boy-scouts-inland-scouting-official-killed-in-rocketry-accident/amp/

Funkworks said:

I could let my imagination run wild here, but do we have access to a record of these incidents?

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I do. The most recent accident involving Tripoli insurance was a low powered model rocket that struck a person and resulted in a er visit (no stay) and CT scan. Safe Distances for model rockets are shorter than high power, meaning less time to react, and I think that we sometimes unfairly discount the potential for model rockets to do serious injury.

heada said:

I don't know about official records but about 10 years ago a scout died due to a low power rocket hitting him and causing fatal wounds. There are also pictures on the forum of a low power rocket half embedded in the roof of a vendor's trailer. Just 2 examples of personal injury and property damage.

It's very rare but it does happen.

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This post is not correct. A scout never died from a Model Rocket hitting him. There was an incident where a scout was hit by an Estes X-15 rocket and sustained a deep injury to the chest at a large scouting event and was evacuated for medical care. The rocket was recalled.

The only fatal incident was a scout leader who launched a high power rocket that was allegedly rigged to fail (nose would not separate) and was hit in the face/head by the extremely heavy and fast moving ballistic crash of the high power rocket. Launched without a high power rocket permit as well. Occurred in late 2015 in So. Cal desert.

shreadvector said:

This post is not correct. A scout never died from a Model Rocket hitting him. There was an incident where a scout was hit by an Estes X-15 rocket and sustained a deep injury to the chest at a large scouting event and was evacuated for medical care. The rocket was recalled.

The only fatal incident was a scout leader who launched a high power rocket that was allegedly rigged to fail (nose would not separate) and was hit in the face/head by the extremely heavy and fast moving ballistic crash of the high power rocket. Launched without a high power rocket permit as well. Occurred in late 2015 in So. Cal desert.

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I must have been confusing the 2. I was thinking of the X-15 launch. Either way, that is 2 personal injury cases.

Funkworks said:

I could let my imagination run wild here, but do we have access to a record of these incidents?

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AMW ProX trailer hit by ballistic LPR:

shreadvector said:

This post is not correct. A scout never died from a Model Rocket hitting him. There was an incident where a scout was hit by an Estes X-15 rocket and sustained a deep injury to the chest at a large scouting event and was evacuated for medical care. The rocket was recalled.

The only fatal incident was a scout leader who launched a high power rocket that was allegedly rigged to fail (nose would not separate) and was hit in the face/head by the extremely heavy and fast moving ballistic crash of the high power rocket. Launched without a high power rocket permit as well. Occurred in late 2015 in So. Cal desert.

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Fred,
Every article I’ve ever seen, including those referred to by NAR President Ted Cochran, a person highly respected for being careful not to speculate, said that the rocket that struck the scout leader was a model rocket, not high power. If there has been a more complete report I would be interested in reading it.

https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2015/11/update-information-on-fatal-model.html?m=1

I'm afraid some of these examples might convince the op to avoid "dangerous" group launches and continue his casual sport flying. Lots of fun can be had at that level, following the safety rules included in every kit and motor instructions. That said Tom, I would still encourage you to seek out a local club to get a new experience and see if flying in their setting has any appeal to you.

We are always one launch away from the BATFE choosing to re-regulate rocket motors. If that day comes, the hobby will take a hit that it probably won't survive. NAR and TRA are our only advocates with the government to help keep that from happening. To me, that alone is worth the $120 a year I pay.

Tom said:

I am a casual low power sport flyer / builder. Rarely anything bigger than an 18mm C engine.

I went to look into joining the NAR the other day and with respect I found it to be a bit pricey!

What can the NAR bring to the table for me for just under $70.00 a year?

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If you are launching LPR on your own property, or on property with no spectators other than you and your family, the membership amount isn't cost justifiable.

Which is fine. It doesn't make sense for me either.

But for club launches and NAR events, where there are masses of people and vehicles well within the "apogee range" of the rockets being launched, then it makes sense. Spend a little time on the Facebook page "The Cato Club", it's quite educational. Regardless of how well anybody build their rockets, if the motor malfunctions all bets are off.

Tom said:

I am a casual low power sport flyer / builder. Rarely anything bigger than an 18mm C engine.

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Nothing wrong with that - that's how most of us got started in this hobby!

Tom said:

I went to look into joining the NAR the other day and with respect I found it to be a bit pricey!

What can the NAR bring to the table for me for just under $70.00 a year?

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Simple - local club camaraderie!
If I didn't have a local club nearby, I probably would not have joined either NAR or TRA. But I do, so I did.

FlyBoy said:

I don't understand people who fly rockets of any class and don't belong to NAR or Tripoli to take advantage of the insurance.

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Has anyone actually benefited from that insurance ?
I know it exists, but has anyone actually ever filed a claim and collected on that benefit?
Just curious.

a

P.S.: I regularly launch low-power rockets with my kids and local Cub scouts packs outside of NAR or TRA jurisdictions. Those kids seam to get more joy from rocket launching in one 90-minute span than all the NAR+TRA members I ever met in my life, combined.

P.P.S.: If $70 is a budget

We are always one launch away from the BATFE choosing to re-regulate rocket motors. If that day comes, the hobby will take a hit that it probably won't survive. NAR and TRA are our only advocates with the government to help keep that from happening. To me, that alone is worth the $120 a year I pay.

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See that is one of the things. I dutifully paid my dues to the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) for 30 years. They proclaimed themselves to be a 'powerful lobbying agency' looking after our interests. But along came drones which allowed virtually anyone to be able to fly, and a lot of idiots did a lot of stupid things. Next thing you know the government is requiring folks to 'register' their models and other intrusive legislation. The AMA proved to be powerless. Ruined the RC aircraft hobby for me and left a rather sour taste in my mouth!

I'm a wee bit confused. I thought that if you're at a NAR club launch then the club's insurance covers you? I would have thought that it is more useful to be NAR member if you're out launching on your own, because then that's the only way you'll be covered with their insurance.

afadeev said:

Has anyone actually benefited from that insurance ?
I know it exists, but has anyone actually ever filed a claim and collected on that benefit?
Just curious.

a

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As Steve said above, there have been claims on the TRA insurance for LPR. Insurance like this normally doesn't pay you but rather pays for fees/bills that you normally would have to pay. For example, the medical bills for the ER visit and CT scan in the example Steve mentioned. Without TRA insurance, the flier would have had to pay those bills.

Tom said:

See that is one of the things. I dutifully paid my dues to the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) for 30 years. They proclaimed themselves to be a 'powerful lobbying agency' looking after our interests. But along came drones which allowed virtually anyone to be able to fly, and a lot of idiots did a lot of stupid things. Next thing you know the government is requiring folks to 'register' their models and other intrusive legislation. The AMA proved to be powerless. Ruined the RC aircraft hobby for me and left a rather sour taste in my mouth!

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Well, like the old song says, "The future's uncertain and the end is always near." I say enjoy what you're doing now, fly safe and respect the landowners and neighbors when you fly. And visit a local club sometime !

neil_w said:

I'm a wee bit confused. I thought that if you're at a NAR club launch then the club's insurance covers you? I would have thought that it is more useful to be NAR member if you're out launching on your own, because then that's the only way you'll be covered with their insurance.

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I emailed NAR and asked that very question.

What I got was:
Then I asked:
That's when I got the "Read the Contract, here's a link" response.

neil_w said:

I'm a wee bit confused. I thought that if you're at a NAR club launch then the club's insurance covers you? I would have thought that it is more useful to be NAR member if you're out launching on your own, because then that's the only way you'll be covered with their insurance.

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Coverage for non-NAR members under Section coverage is not automatic. This is what the NAR insurance FAQ has to say:

https://www.nar.org/safety-information/insurance-questions/


7. My Section often has non-members attending our launch. Are they covered by NAR insurance when they fly with us?

Sometimes; generally, non-members are not covered by NAR insurance. To obtain coverage, they must join and become members of the NAR. However, your Section’s coverage and your individual NAR members’ coverage by the NAR insurance policy remains. However, students, whether NAR members or not, who are members of teams participating in national student rocketry events officially sponsored by the NAR (currently Team America Rocketry Challenge and the NASA Student Launch Initiative/University SLI program) are covered only when they fly at an organized NAR section launch—but not at other times and places.


15. Who is protected under NAR Section insurance?

Section liability insurance protects the group, corporately, against bodily injury and property damage claims during activities sponsored by the club. If the Section, as a group, is named in a legal action as a result of a rocket accident, the NAR liability policy would respond to the alleged damages, pay for the expenses resulting from the lawsuit, plus damages awarded. Individual members may still be held liable for their own actions. Some additional protection may be achieved if the club is a registered nonprofit corporation — contact an attorney in your state for guidance.


My interpretation is that making a claim as result of non-member activity requires a lot of "it depends" and exact nature of the damages and YMMV and lawyers. Full disclosure, I have no experience making a claim of this sort. Just my take.

Steve Shannon said:

Fred,
Every article I’ve ever seen, including those referred to by NAR President Ted Cochran, a person highly respected for being careful not to speculate, said that the rocket that struck the scout leader was a model rocket, not high power. If there has been a more complete report I would be interested in reading it.

https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2015/11/update-information-on-fatal-model.html?m=1

Click to expand...

At the time that this happened, the CA law had not been changed to match the current NFPA definitions, so this was a high power rocket launched without permits. It may have still been a high power rocket under the NFPA definitions (weight, construction materials, etc.).

The comments in the press-enterprise article are no longer online, but are copied in some forum posts.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/rocketry-related-thread.130216/#post-1519663
https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=201884&postcount=22

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=201900&postcount=31

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=201901&postcount=32

So, from descriptions on YORF, it was 4" PVC powered by a 3 E cluster (who knows how many lit). If that's correct, no way was it a "Model Rocket" by definition.

For advocacy if nothing else, I'm a NAR member. I do low power only, and usually fly with a small local club. I am concerned by the limits and deductibles described, plus the fact that typical use cases don't result in good descriptions of how things work in the event of a claim.

These parts specifically:

Each Occurrence: 1 Million
Fire Damage (any one person) : 100,000
Medical Expense (any one person: 5,000
Deductible per bodily injury & property damage claim 5,000

OK, so we're covered up to a $1M limit for "Something happening"

Let's say rocket goes up, comes down pointy side down, impales leg of person watching nearby. It's not clear that it covers injuries to that non-NAR bystander.

The limit of $5000 medical expenses is laughable. Just showing up at the ER is likely at least $4k, before they actually do anything (I've been to the ER with my family for a variety of things in the last 5 years, probably 10 visits, so I know where from I speak).

So let's say they "cover" the bystander. But only $5k, and the deductible is listed as $5k, so that means no coverage at all really, as I read it. If there's more than a set of stitches or something, let's say an XRAY, an MRI, various doctor services, and a night of observation before discharge, probably ~$15-25k. If they have health insurance (presumably through their work or a private policy), that insurance company is going to come after the rocketeer who caused the accident for every penny the insurance company pays the hospital. And the person's lawyer recovering out of pocket costs of the injured person (their deductible, copay). Then there's the general liability involved (person injured misses work, needs to hire someone to look after kids, has pain and suffering, etc...). Presumably that falls within the $1M occurrence coverage, and claims would vary widely state to state.

Bottom line is that the insurance sounds helpful when negotiating with landowners for field access, but in terms of medical expenses it appears to be of limited value either by definition ($5k minus $5k deductible = $0 for medical expenses) or in practice ($5k payout likely pales compared to even a small ER visit). I hope I'm wrong and welcome those more knowledgeable than I to correct me.

I believe it means that if a medical bill was 10,000 you would pay the first 5K and the insurance would pick up the remainder.

I agree $5,000.00 deductible... that's kind of out there.

Medical expenses on a general liability policy are for claims where someone is injured regardless of who is to blame. It's usually meant for small claims, thus the lower limits. It's meant for, say, someone tripping and cutting their foot at a launch. They go to the hospital to get stitches. The club is not really to blame for the injury, but the policy will cover it anyway. If you own a home, you probably have medical expenses on your homeowner's policy, and the limits are probably around the same as on the NAR policy.

For the following, I got most of this information from the NAR website, especially here: https://www.nar.org/safety-information/insurance-questions/ It may be only accessible to members. I'm not sure.

The liability policy kicks in when the insured is at fault. And the policy is $5 million per occurrence/$6 million aggregate, not $1 million/$2 million, according to the Certificate of Liability Insurance on the NAR website: https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/NAR-Proof-of-Insurance.pdf. That means if someone gets hurt from an errant rocket, and as long as the safety code was being followed, the liability limits kick in. The insurance will pay up to the $5 million per occurrence/$6 million aggregate limits, including medical expenses. And it is a primary insurance policy. It should cover any amount that the injured party's medical insurance initially paid out.

Yes, the deductible is $5000, but members are only responsible for the first $1,000. I assume this means the NAR covers the remainder. However, "if a member is responsible for more than one claim in any NAR policy period (typically April 1 to March 31), they will be responsible for the entire amount of the NAR deductible in the subsequent claims after the first one."