Just a simple question ...........

Several weeks ago, I came across a beautiful model posted on Facebook, under the National Association of Rocketry group. It was built by a very nice gentleman named Jorge from Argentina. I immediately wanted to know all about it and asked him whether It was a kit or scratch built. I contacted Jorge on Facebook. He stated it was a kit from Skytech; He sent me a link to the store (https://www.cohetes-skytec.com.ar/). I was excited, and of course, really wanted to buy the kit, but I never could find the model. He even had another nice guy from Skytech named Emiliano contact me via email. Unfortunately, he explained that it is just to difficult to mail from Argentina.

I find this model Jorge built to be very beautiful…



and I want to build one.

After a couple email exchanges, it seemed there was no way I was getting a kit! So, a few weeks later, I decide to use the pictures and build it myself using Rocksim. I used the photographs and started measuring for scale reproduction. Later that evening it dawned on me- I can use my Binder Design Raptor Kit to reproduce and Up-scale this cool-looking model for my level 2 certification flight.

Back in March 2012, I bought an old Binder Design Kit off eBay called the “Cobra.”

It’s labeled at the top of the package as “Raptor,” but the instruction sheet shows it as “Cobra.”


Anyway, I have all the parts I need already I will just have to get some new plywood to produce the replica fins. The project is just in the brain storm process now but I have been building it and simulating it on Rocksim. Which leads to my question to you all...………


AFTER I was to successfully certify LVL 2 with this model; there are some really cool simulations on Rocksim that just barely reach MACH 1. I am certain I have read on the forum over the years that others have done it. Do any of you have success with an OLD school High Power Model Rocket (Paper wound Tube, plywood fins, etc) at that airspeed. I have some really nice kits from Wildman that could handle that speed so I am not going to push my thought to far into crazy. But this Binder design kit has been my LVL 2 goal for about three years now. Plus I love the thought of building and certifying using
"old school ways"

While I haven't personally witnessed it, I know that BD's kits are capable of handling Mach without being fiberglassed. That said, I'm a little iffy about those little fins in the back... I'd make sure that you build it solid if you want to push it hard to prevent flutter from causing problems.

In discussions with Mike Fisher, and Scott Binder, I've learned that lawyers from Estes got a bug up their butt about the "Cobra" name and sent a C&D letter regarding it. Thus the name change. IIRC, the lawyers were acting on their own, and not with the mandate from Estes. Clearly yours is from the transitional period.

Thank you so much.......

It will be through the wall fins and typical good build techniques with quality epoxy.
I will procede with care of course.....

All the photos I have of the Antares looks like about a BT-80 size model. 2.6"
I am scaling it to a 4" tube of course.
Fin flutter has been my biggest concerne so far.......

At BALLS we had these kits as raffle prizes. They brought quite a few of them up from Argentina.
Well made, instructions in Espanol.

M

Oh, yes, indeed. I brought those kits from Argentina to BALLS and in two opportunities, to LDRS.
And, if all goes well, I will go BALLS this year with some more kits...

Guillermo D.

See you there, Guillermo!

gdescalzo said:

Oh, yes, indeed. I brought those kits from Argentina to BALLS and in two opportunities, to LDRS.
And, if all goes well, I will go BALLS this year with some more kits...

Guillermo D.

Click to expand...

Please see about getting me one or two... But I won't be able to go to BALLS, as I'm living and working in China.

K'Tesh said:

Please see about getting me one or two... But I won't be able to go to BALLS, as I'm living and working in China.

Click to expand...

I can pick up one for you and hold it till you return to the states. I’m thinking of getting one anyway.

There's always this...

gdescalzo said:

Oh, yes, indeed. I brought those kits from Argentina to BALLS and in two opportunities, to LDRS.
And, if all goes well, I will go BALLS this year with some more kits...

Guillermo D.

Click to expand...

That being the case...........how can go about buyinng a kit ? In case i cannot go BALLS 2019

Paul


Are there any other rocketeers that have experience with really high speed plywood and heavy walled paper tube models?

Many moons ago couple of my friends decided to find speed of cardboard. They did using 1706 case and the red & blue loads K-1100 was rocket killer. Double walled with couplers, phenolic matters not..could not exceed M-1.9 with out shredding. The contest started to see who could hit mach first [lowest altitude] if memory serves it was around 750ft to M-1.

jd2cylman said:

There's always this...

Click to expand...

Funny you say that Adrian.......I have that kit !!! I think it is Bad Ass !

Steve Shannon said:

I can pick up one for you and hold it till you return to the states. I’m thinking of getting one anyway.

Click to expand...

Thanks!

When that happens, you could always give it to/send it to Randy Boadway (owner of eRockets). He has a shelf for me.

K'Tesh said:

Thanks!

When that happens, you could always give it to/send it to Randy Boadway (owner of eRockets). He has a shelf for me.

Click to expand...

How do you know you have a rocketry addiction?
When your vendor of choice has a reserved shelf just for you...

blackjack2564 said:

Many moons ago couple of my friends decided to find speed of cardboard. They did using 1706 case and the red & blue loads K-1100 was rocket killer. Double walled with couplers, phenolic matters not..could not exceed M-1.9 with out shredding. The contest started to see who could hit mach first [lowest altitude] if memory serves it was around 750ft to M-1.

Click to expand...

Thank you Jim, the motor that was in the Rocksim flight at mach 1, was a CTI K590. I am working on details of the build now. Still looking for some of the parts i think i have. And brainstorming ways to lighten it up. I will make the cert attempt on a tamer Pro54

Oh, I will try to brought more kits with me for next BALLS, dear friends... but, you know, the suitcase has a limited space. So, for all of you that want one, the best way is attend Tripoli Gerlach dinner meeting at BALLS, and participate in the raffle!!! ;-)
Let´s see... It would be very nice for us to sell SkyTec kits in the States, but the regulations in Argentina are a mess for a very small company like us.- Let's wait to see if in a near future we can export more freely.

Guillermo

gdescalzo said:

Oh, I will try to brought more kits with me for next BALLS, dear friends... but, you know, the suitcase has a limited space. So, for all of you that want one, the best way is attend Tripoli Gerlach dinner meeting at BALLS, and participate in the raffle!!! ;-)
Let´s see... It would be very nice for us to sell SkyTec kits in the States, but the regulations in Argentina are a mess for a very small company like us.- Let's wait to see if in a near future we can export more freely.

Guillermo

Click to expand...

What I would recommend would be to copyright your design in the states and have someone kit some here in the states.

jd2cylman said:

How do you know you have a rocketry addiction?
When your vendor of choice has a reserved shelf just for you...

Click to expand...

He's not just a vendor... He's an "Enabler"!!!

Anyone else successfully fly a heavy wall paper tube and plywood fins High Power model at Mach1 ??

Glasspack said:

Anyone else successfully fly a heavy wall paper tube and plywood fins High Power model at Mach1 ??

Click to expand...

I know some LOC nuke pro maxes have.

DavidMcCann said:

I know some LOC nuke pro maxes have.

Click to expand...

I’m about to build one of these. Hoping to push its limits.

Glasspack said:

Anyone else successfully fly a heavy wall paper tube and plywood fins High Power model at Mach1 ??

Click to expand...

I've seen a rocket made of LOC 54mm tube with standard plastic LOC nose cone and 1/8" plywood fins go to M1.6.

Thank you all...……. I am going to press on with my build soon. Will do my best to build it straight and true.
That Mach 1 flight will be way down the road, if at all with this model. Fin Flutter is my biggest concern so far.


Paul

Glasspack said:

Anyone else successfully fly a heavy wall paper tube and plywood fins High Power model at Mach1 ??

Click to expand...

My Nuke Promax has done M1.3.

grouch said:

My Nuke Promax has done M1.3.

Click to expand...

I'm building a Nuke ProMax to be my first M1 flight and I have no doubt that it will make it.

Thank you all for your inputs. I am using Phenolic for the fins and will do my best to build it light but strong.....

I might try to talk to Scott Binder because i am afraid the cetering rings will not be strong enough for that K590 or up. Will start a build thread soon..... still planning and playing with avionics bay.

Glasspack

This rocket looks very much like a Wildman Eagle Claw. The most obvious difference is that the Eagle Claw uses a clipped delta trailing fin, whereas this rocket uses a tapered swept trailing fin; but the overall look is very similar if that is what you are after.

https://wildmanrocketry.com/products/eagle-claw-4

Glasspack said:

Thank you all for your inputs. I am using Phenolic for the fins and will do my best to build it light but strong.....

I might try to talk to Scott Binder because i am afraid the cetering rings will not be strong enough for that K590 or up. Will start a build thread soon..... still planning and playing with avionics bay.

Glasspack

Click to expand...

How thick are the centering rings? If they're butted up against your fins, the force is transferred through the tabs to the airframe with minimum plate bending on the rings.

Thank you both so much..... my collection of model kits is quite extensive....I do have the Eagle Claw 4 kit actually. But i plan on building a copy of the Antares model i saw from Argentina, using the pieces from my Binder Design kit. Do far my plans will include a tailcone motor retainer, which, in my understading will also help transfer thrust forces to the airframe. It is threaded to the part of the thrust ring base.....and butts up to the end of the aft airframe.....

Oh yeah and the cntering rings are about 1/8" thick. I am not able to measure them at this time......The fins of course are TTW construction, with the rings sandwiching them. The lower fin set has one ring at the aft end of fin tabs.

I was just reading the Rocket Reviews notes on the Binder Design Raptor from years ago. It lists teh centering rings as 1/4" Masonite Hardboard. I have been reading as much as I can find and it seems the material would be just as strong as plywood in that aspect. Although they are closer to 1/8" I think (still have to mic them).

I am currently playing with the electronics bay for the model and working out details of the sled and its placement. I want to be able to see the status LED of the RRC2+ through the static pressure holes in the Avionics bay. Plan to add a coupler ar two extra to stiffen the airframe. Especially at the fin to outer airframe area. I obviously dont want a K motor to rip out throught the booster. Some of the thrust will be also transfered to the airframe through the Tailcone retainer assembly. the tail cone is from Aeropack and will be here soon.