Why?

Folks I recently, just today, had to prune another thread because of inappropriate language and personal attacks. So this is a sincere and honest question, please don't give sarcastic remarks because they'll be removed as it's counter productive.

TRF has guidelines and rules posted that are pretty darn clear. Many individuals continue to support those values and have PM'd, e-mailed, or called in support of those - as they enjoy this safe environment and find that's TRF niche.

Why is it then, with all that's happened recently and over the years, do people continue to violate those principles and then get their knickers-in-a-knot when TRF takes action?

Again, sincere conversation and responses please . . .

I think at this point there is no need to keep explaining your actions, just do it. If people can't respect the rules, they can leave. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the support.

Sorry if it came across that way, but I'm not trying to rexplain my actions. I simply don't understand why people continue to go into areas that they shouldn't and am looking for greater insight.

Lack of consistency in enforcing the policies by the Mods. Threads and posts allowed to stand, and others pulled depending on the (mood) judgment, of the Mod. Involved at the time.

Just my opinion

mccr3328 said:

Lack of consistency in enforcing the policies by the Mods. Threads and posts allowed to stand, and others pulled depending on the (mood) judgment, of the Mod. Involved at the time.

Just my opinion

Click to expand...

No that's a good point, so thanks.

I think were fixing that. We've relooked the groundrules and assumptions and do agree there's a matter of interpretation on the part of mods/admins. We're hoping to eliminate that through rolling out an updated set of rules and guidelines that are more definitive. These have been comrpised from other proven systems.

Albeit, there'll be some subjectivity as with anything, but we're hoping to cut back on that as much as possible. I think a lot has to do with the fact that we're not all geographically close to each other and business is done through electronic means. If we were in a building together, we could meet real quick in a room to clarify things. With people logging on and off at random, it's a bit more challenging. We're also putting in more safeguards to ensure similar actions are taken across the board.

So thanks . . .

akpilot said:

Folks I recently, just today, had to prune another thread because of inappropriate language and personal attacks. So this is a sincere and honest question, please don't give sarcastic remarks because they'll be removed as it's counter productive.

TRF has guidelines and rules posted that are pretty darn clear. Many individuals continue to support those values and have PM'd, e-mailed, or called in support of those - as they enjoy this safe environment and find that's TRF niche.

Why is it then, with all that's happened recently and over the years, do people continue to violate those principles and then get their knickers-in-a-knot when TRF takes action?

Again, sincere conversation and responses please . . .

Click to expand...

Yeah? Well you're a big dumb silly headed rocket geek Troy!

Ooops... Wow. That just slipped out. I'm sorry... It must be the cold weather.

"we could meet real quick in a room to clarify things"


Agreed! Electronic conversation is tricky thing, intrinsically different then talking face to face, or even by phone. All human aspects are removed, the look on the other persons face, tone of voice are missing which can lead to misunderstandings misinterpretations ECT,

The other problem lies in staying on topic! This leads to threads getting out of control I see people with thousands of posts and wonder how many of those posts had anything to do with the subject matter. Not saying that a high post count is bad, just looking at threads that are of interest to me and see them fill up with unnecessary comments.

Again just an opinion
Switching back to lurk mode!

mccr3328 said:

The other problem lies in staying on topic! This leads to threads getting out of control I see people with thousands of posts and wonder how many of those posts had anything to do with the subject matter. Not saying that a high post count is bad, just looking at threads that are of interest to me and see them fill up with unnecessary comments.

Again just an opinion
Switching back to lurk mode!

Click to expand...

That can definitely add to the situation in some cases. However, if you sit and listen to oral conversations, you will find that many people wander off topic in "real life". Heck, they bounce from topic to topic left and right. I have a good friend that is ADHD. Try having any conversation with him about a single topic...within three minutes, there will have been about a dozen totally random thoughts that have popped into the conversation!

I love to see humor (humour for the Canucks) in almost any thread. It adds to the character of the thread and to the people behind the keyboard that we don't get to actually see face to face.

People forget, approximately 68%, or higher, of a person's communication is non-verbal.

akpilot said:

People forget, approximately 68%, or higher, of a person's communication is non-verbal.

Click to expand...

True. Another thing to consider is the tendency for people to push limits in some situations. That behavior is hard-wired into us and starts early in life.

You have some documented issues on TRF (not really "issues" but you know what I'm driving at), things are in flux and we are all aware and a little sensitive about the apple cart being bumped, and sometimes people unconsiously (or consiously, we'll never know) just push limits in times like these to see how serious we all are about what we say.

Add all those things together and you have touchy mods and touchy members. I agree with what was said earlier, prune as necessary and save explainations for big stuff.

In fact, I suggest even removing this thread completely before it ignites a big broo-ha-ha and just keep on "steady as she goes".

Just an opinion.

I think "respect" may also be in play.

It's perceived that you (the forum) show little to no respect towards one or two individuals (posts, people, thoughts, nationalitly, whatever..)

And they take it upon themselve to shovel the same treatment back at you... An eye for an eye.. Regardless of...

Others just like pushing buttons, and enjoy having their buttons being pushed.

If it gets to be too big a problem, stop pruning threads and start pruning PEOPLE.

That will get the message across.

>>>>>
If it gets to be too big a problem, stop pruning threads and start pruning PEOPLE.

That will get the message across.
<<<<<

I can state for a fact they have done that.

A couple of weeks or so, someone responded to something I had said, with a tirade and ending it with an explicit “(4-letter word) you!”. Not only was his post pulled, but he has been temporarily banned for the forum.

- George Gassaway

George Gassaway said:

>>>>>
If it gets to be too big a problem, stop pruning threads and start pruning PEOPLE.

That will get the message across.
<<<<<

I can state for a fact they have done that.

A couple of weeks or so, someone responded to something I had said, with a tirade and ending it with an explicit &#8220;(4-letter word) you!&#8221;. Not only was his post pulled, but he has been temporarily banned for the forum.

- George Gassaway

Click to expand...

I remember that. Don't know what the deal was, but that's the sort of things that need to happen if things get too silly.

Why?

That's a fairly easy one, and I think you already know the answer, AK---

It's because we are human. Even with the best intentions, people still occasionally lose their temper and get mad. Everyone feels the tug of vanity and pridefulness and the desire to be pronounced "right" (whether we are or not) and some of us give in once in a while.

Every so often I am very much surprised by these human responses. A while back I posted some questions about whether this gang thought that a certain rocketry technique fit within the NAR rules (which it does, as confirmed by appropriate NAR officers). What startled me was the strong response on the part of one of TRF's most accomplished and respected members who basically told me I was off-base and foolish (I think it was stronger than that but there's no need to repeat anything else now, and no, I'm not going say who). When I tried to figure out the basis for his protests, the best sense I could make of it was that he didn't like it. Go figure. (I did it anyway.)

The mods here on TRF do an excellent job of keeping things friendly and rolling forward. When someone must be "corrected" it is pretty natural to get defensive. Maybe in the text editing options, along with the font and italics and smilie buttons, maybe we need a button to add a text phrase to our posts like "OH YEAH?, SO ARE YOU!" Sound childish? We all just have to be more aware of the words we use.

For myself, I hate the idea of me posting trash and adding to the work-load of the moderators. I'm sure they have better things to do.

I've noted strong posts and stronger responses regarding topics that have a certain amount of controversy. And when you have controversy, you have strong opinions. And when you have strong opinions, people tend to put their egos on the line. And when that happens, it can be a quick hop step from discussing controversial subjects to perceived personal attacks.

Unfortunate as it is, our hobby relies on certain guidelines to remain safe and to avoid legal entanglements. Those two elements are bound to generate disagreements.

As for the job the moderators are doing here - well, that can be a thankless position. I've been a moderator on a forum before, and I know how difficult it can be to ride herd on that beast, especially one as large as TRF. I think they do a great job.

Why?

https://drewmike.file-place.com/2/kerrigan.mp3

shreadvector said:

Why?

https://drewmike.file-place.com/2/kerrigan.mp3

Click to expand...

Levity is good medicine.

Also, people's tendency to dislike change, some things need fixing but even good change is still change is a factor.

The current economic uncertainty, I'm sure ties into the general short fuse syndrome as well.

I for one like the overall friendly atmosphere of TRF, yeah people tease here and there, but it is in general in good fun, and only among those who know each other well. I would be much less inclined to hang out here if I thought I was going to get torn down for a "stupid question"

Good work Troy, thanks for all you are doing!

Why?

Anything that is anyway in the slightest disagreeable or controversial is censored, without even so much as a warning. Vendors are banned.

That last one will end TRF's support by vendors. Once that happens, TRF fades into nothingness. That's the one thing that keeps TRF going, the support of vendors for it. Otherwise, its just a bunch of guys blabbing about their hobby. gets boring after a while.

So WShore if I hear your correctly, you're saying that because the rules for TRF are upheld and enforced people fight against those rules when they step over the line?

akpilot said:

So WShore if I hear your correctly, you're saying that because the rules for TRF are upheld and enforced people fight against those rules when they step over the line?

Click to expand...

No.

It's because the rules are too strict as it is. And now you're going to make them even tighter.

That's a huge mistake that TRF is going to wind up suffering from. It stifles debate and free exchange of ideas and opinions. It also prevents, in the current situation, hobbyists like us about knowing about the jerks in the business who are ripping honest vendors off.

Vendors are fussy. The moment they feel this place doesn't benefit them, they're gone. And there goes TRF's niche.

I can hear the bell a ringing, looks like this is going to turn into another TRF boxing match. I've lost alot of interest with this forum because instead of trying to help a person with a simple question people start to argue over stuff.

WShoreRockets said:

....That last one will end TRF's support by vendors. ...

Click to expand...

I have tried to stay away as much as possible after the latest blowup because it doesn't seem to do any good to be on the wrong side of a discussion. I was even going to wait a day before reponding to this comment but I felt it needed one. I did take 5 minutes to make espresso and review before posting .

akpilot is asking for:

akpilot said:

....sincere conversation and responses please . . .

Click to expand...

We still do not have all the facts of what happened. Some of the reports and incidents that have come my way are not very nice. This is not the first time, but this seems to be the worst. Some of the one sided support I have seen has been terrible. There is a clear lack of wanting to find out the truth. It seems some do not want to hear both sides or even the truth.

akpilot has said there will be within the next week TRF is going to publish the plans to move things forward. I will be waiting for the details on what happened and what will happen.

This forum is the for the discussion of rocketry. Please wait that week before declaring this forum finished.

Now I need to go on an errand. I have garbage (scrap wood and sawdust) to bring to the transfer station. I need to cut balsa and basswood tomorrow.

Ok, let me clarify something.

I don't want to see TRF crash and burn. I do like it here, and I feel it does serve a valuable purpose.

I'm ~AFRAID~ that this is what will happen.

The vendor support (in general, not specific vendors), is what makes TRF unique. This place has excellent support from vendors. I'm just concerned that heavy handed censoring could have a disastrous affect. It could drive them away.

That's my concern, in a nutshell.

WShoreRockets said:

The vendor support (in general, not specific vendors), is what makes TRF unique.

Click to expand...

Vendors post to RP, N3, rmr, old_rockets, YORF, ROL and most every other widely known forum. What's "unique" about their participation here?

Doug

.

WShore, I think you've got nothing to worry about, really...

As Angelo said, those who don't know the whole story, and that's pretty much ALL OF US on the outside, need to just chill and let the moderators handle this thing. And he's a vendor as well. I don't get the impression that he's concerned about what happened.

Heck, by the beginning of next year I'll be a vendor (Lord willing). Am I concerned about getting booted off here? No.

Do I think AK is a crazed megolomaniac bent on ruling the 'Net with an Iron Fist? Again, no.

Does he know more about what happens on this forum than any of us will EVER know? Yes.

And I don't say that just because I know AK personally.

I don't wanna hear only one side of a story. I don't wanna jump on anybody's bandwagon, I don't wanna discuss why this rule is this or that way, don't wanna discuss politics, religion, illegal manufacturing, unsafe behavior, dirty jokes, global warming, etc. I don't wanna read people going off the deep end about their "rights", thumping their egos, calling other people names, taking a "I know better than you" attitude.

That's most of the reason I come here instead of the other places. I just wanna talk rockets, meet folks, and maybe sell folks something they would enjoy.

Relax! If we don't "make" it a big, hairy deal.... then it probably won't "become" a big, hairy deal. The community at large here is probably not gonna run away screaming just yet.

Hakouna Matata, baby!

WShoreRockets said:

Why?

Anything that is anyway in the slightest disagreeable or controversial is censored, without even so much as a warning. Vendors are banned.

That last one will end TRF's support by vendors. Once that happens, TRF fades into nothingness. That's the one thing that keeps TRF going, the support of vendors for it. Otherwise, its just a bunch of guys blabbing about their hobby. gets boring after a while.

Click to expand...

I have been somewhat of a silent partner in the deal to renew the core values of TRF and bring it to what it once was. That being said, technical issues have plagued this site, a reduction in moderator corps, and a lack of time to invest in the site have all added to the funk that it is now or is perceived to be. Of the original site owners/moderators, we currently have Carl standing by to hand of TRF's data to its future home. Aside from that commitment, his time is limited. The original TRF group of moderators have since moved on only occasionally browsing the forums to see where things are going or have gone. Each of their situations have forced them to shelf this hobby and focus on the issues we're all now facing - unemployment, economic downturn, retirement fallout, "insert your crisis here." Some of us faced a lot of these issues well before we even knew who would run for the presidency. I personally am faced with possible unemployment again which in the last 11 years would be my 4th lay-off. It's hard to put forth 100&#37; effort into *any* hobby when life sucks you back into reality. Enough of that though.

I've spent the last few days reading through the recent fallout with CJSAviation/Sheri. There was a lot of knee-jerk reaction there, facts presented or not. I received a phone call from an attorney that honestly made me more concerned about my personal well being rather than the future of this site. Coincidentally, I had 30 minutes to be at the airport to catch a business flight - hence my abscence during all of what had happened. AKPILOT was essentially on his own, and while I always preferred the traditional method of a consensus on decisions and policy making amongst moderators - he did the best he could with what limited time he had.

The subject at hand is more general regarding the disregard for forum rules and policies, but certainly the recent vendor banning was the highlight and inspiration for this thread topic. In the end, the gut feeling I have is that the sense of community has been lost here. This place used to be self-policing and vendor participation made for lead discussions that were chock full of content and quality conversation. Well respected veterans of the hobby made this their place of choice at one time - some still do or now share their time elsewhere. I can say with much respect that they have probably found a better home in a place such as YORF - and for the more progressive hobby enthusiast hungry for rocketry info - RP. I love both of those sites for what they offer this hobby and I would prefer TRF to remain here simply to meet the needs of kids - family, community, whatever. I know no one will believe this, but I actually like that a place like N3 exists for the less modest rocketeer that would rather break a beer bottle over the head of the next guy rather than buy it for him. (j/k guys - there's comradery over there too.)

So the weekend of lawyers, he said she said, and disgust over what happened with little documentation came and went. I felt a sense of commitment to personally become involved and offer some sort of explanation, but in the end I was more disgusted with the backlash that came from that scenario and some of the things that were said and insinuated. I spend a great deal of time in my career always offering the next stranger a professional courtesy. I live much of my personal life handing out respect and common decency. I won't pretend to know anything about internet law - but this was not the first time someone has actually proceeded with legal intervention against this site. How that all happens is beyond me - but in the end of the day I want to enjoy a certain quality of life that does not involve forking over money to defend myself on behalf of a hobby. We are discussing alternatives that would prevent stuff like this from happening again in the future.

In a nutshell, there was a LARGE - HUGE - GIGANTIC misunderstanding over the whole Sheri deal which much was lost over. Sheri had one side of the story, the attorney that contacted me had another. Is there any reason why we should be the middle men in judging who we side with? In a pinch the easiest solution was to make the problem "go away." At the end of the day it's sometimes just not worth the effort...plain and simple. The damage is already done and I know this post won't garner me or TRF any further support, but at least my thoughts are out there. Much greater tragedies in this world have occurred because of miscommunications. Nearly 90% of disagreements here lack any real communication set aside the pieces of text we can publish on this site. The other 10% are genuinely trouble makers looking for a place to happen.

I apologize to anyone involved that is upset over what happened with the handling of CJS/Sheri. It wasn't due to a lack of effort, but more so due to a lack of resources. We're here to make a valid attempt to provide an environment for hobby entertainment speak - not a platform for religious, political, or hate speech.

This past year has brought me too many personal challenges. Every now and again there is light at the end of the tunnel that I might be able to actually enjoy flying a rocket for once. In the meantime, this site has been my outlet and I value it just as much as anyone else that has partcipated here. Hopefully we (Troy and I) can pull off a turn around and restore things back to the way they were. No, it won't be perfect and we may even fail in the process, but I can assure you it was not headed in the right direction before we mixed ourselves up with "ownership." With much respect to the previous moderators/owners, we're merely just picking up the torch and moving on. Hopefully we can do the same with this recent situation. I suppose it's just a matter of trust if that even exists anymore.

Eugene,

your post above is excellent. I wonder if perhaps in the future with similar situations, if such a post - which lays out pertinent details - might be the first such post. Perhaps that might allay some of the "TRF stifles free speech!" concern that follows in the wake of thread removal/member banning.

Just a suggestion.

graylensman said:

Eugene,

your post above is excellent. I wonder if perhaps in the future with similar situations, if such a post - which lays out pertinent details - might be the first such post. Perhaps that might allay some of the "TRF stifles free speech!" concern that follows in the wake of thread removal/member banning.

Just a suggestion.

Click to expand...

No, I absolutely agree, but with previous situations no explanation will suffice or even rectify any decision. Hotheads will be hotheads and run away with their thoughts elsewhere. In the situation it seemed like there were 3 sides to the story. Ours mainly had to do with protecting our personal interests. As I mentioned in the above post, I was walking out the door when I got that call and had no time to post, rationalize, discuss, etc. I lost interest in posting details after coming home and realizing that the damage was done, TRF image trashed, etc. Seems like little good comes from trying to reason with an angry mob. I hate to speculate, but an attractive woman will garner the most support in any situation. It's a classic "damsel in distress" issue. I'm not trying to make this a gender based issue since it's merely a miniscule guess at best as to why we got hit so hard over the head. The larger point - obviously - was the lack of clear information which I will gladly take blame for. Regardless, at the end of the day nothing good came of it other than real measures will be taken to prevent such an issue from happening again. We'll chalk it up to a bad learning experience.