New Restrictions on Black Powder?

[cerving]

Maybe they should regulate fertilizer too... witness the recent town-destroying explosion in Texas, and of course the OK City bombing.

At some point, you have to say enough is enough, not everything can be regulated and not every possible situation can be anticipated. Stomping on our freedoms due to paranoia is just plain stupid, and a real good way to get your butt kicked out of office. I don't agree with a whole lot of the NRA's rhetoric, but their general principles are constitutionally sound and therefore need to be listened to. Checking somebody's background is a prudent measure, if not 100% reliable, but taking away our .22 skeet shooting rifles is not going to keep some nut from shooting up a school or blowing up a bunch of innocent people.

 

[JFlagg]

Maybe they should regulate fertilizer too... witness the recent town-destroying explosion in Texas, and of course the OK City bombing.

They are already proposing that as well and at this point it is just Homeland Security rule making, not legislation.

https://www.dhs.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-statutes-and-regulations

 

[JPVegh]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Make no mistake, this is not just fluff or a knee jerk reaction for a soundbite. There is an agenda behind proposals such as this one. An agenda that fully expects people to give up liberty for security. If I write anymore I will be violating forum policies, so...

 

[gldknght]

They are already proposing that as well and at this point it is just Homeland Security rule making, not legislation.

https://www.dhs.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-statutes-and-regulations

That's an even bigger problem. Government agencies making rules without our elected representatives voting on them. There's a word for that. It's called among other things, "Totalitarianism", or "Tyranny". Who was it who said "When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."?

Raise your right hand if you think the people of this nation fear the government, raise your left hand if you think our government fears the people.

 

[o1d_dude]

Do NOT pull the religion card, let me name a few:

Timothy McVeigh
Anders Breivik
David Koresh
Adam Lanza
Seung-Hui Cho

What do they have all in common? Not muslims. Just because you are any religion does not necessarily make you more or less likely to commit violence.

View attachment 126802
You left out Cthulhu. And he is not happy.

 

[Davidtmp]

I'm sure Strawwalker can relate to this, but if they regulate fertilizer, you'll probably see alot less farmers.....and food prices continue to climb. It already costs a heck of a lot more now than it did 20 years ago to farm. If the farmers can't make money, what's the use in farming. It's bad enough that they have peaks and valleys due to weather. If there are more valleys than peaks, that equals bankrupt. The government and all their "policies" are just bankrupting this great nation.

 

[Cyril's Scribe]

View attachment 126802
You left out Cthulhu. And he is not happy.

Ia Yog-Sototh! Ia Yog-Sototh! The goat of the woods with a thousand young!

Fortunately, I don't think we have to worry about him rising any time soon.

 

[JFlagg]

That's an even bigger problem. Government agencies making rules without our elected representatives voting on them.

Actually it was congress, your elected government, you know: YOU, that ordered the agency to make the rules, not the other way around.

The amendment requires the Department to "regulate the sale and transfer of ammonium nitrate by an ammonium nitrate facility ... to prevent the misappropriation or use of ammonium nitrate in an act of terrorism."

Sorry if I am old fashion and still believe the American system of representative government, for all its warts and flaws, is still the best there is.

 

[4kids49]

There are a lot of good posts in this thread. All that I am saying is that it is tough enough to buy bp in the SF Bay area already. It is tough to fly even low power rockets here with all of the regulations. I don't remember bp being a big problem in our country. I just hope that we don't get a knee jerk reaction and senseless regulations because two clowns come to the USA to supposedly get a better life, and then take advantage of our freedoms and use it against us. Most people in our country have not even heard of high power rocketry, let alone understand it. All it takes is a few misinformed people to get up on a soap box and make life tough for us. I think that if the public suffers from needless regulations generated from terrorist attacks, the terrorism lives on much longer than its initial impact. I am all for appropriate laws and safety. I just think that many laws are started by a few misinformed people, who don't always have the general well being of the public in mind. I also think that talking these things out on a forum is not such a bad thing. Everyone feels bad. This is America and people have different opinions.

Chris

 

[CarVac]

What exactly does it entail to have a background check before purchasing?

Does it have to happen every time?

For purchasers with clean records, is the only impact minor inconvenience?

 

[JFlagg]

I don't believe there is any specific information because the bills have not been put forward as actual legislation yet, and likely never will. The Senate majority knows they don't have the votes after the gun background check bill failed and are unlikely to even bother.

 

[UhClem]

They are already proposing that as well and at this point it is just Homeland Security rule making, not legislation.

https://www.dhs.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-statutes-and-regulations

You have the timing backwards. As part of the 2008 appropriations bill (passed in December 2007) Congress included the new law regulating the sale of ammonium nitrate. That is what you will find at the link in the "statute" portion of the web page linked. This is now firmly in place at 6 USC Part J. That bill also required that the DHS Secratary issue an NPRM within 6 months and a final rule within 1 year. DHS failed to meet either of those deadlines as the NPRM wasn't published until 2011 and there is still no final rule.

So while the law requires buyers and facilities be registered, there is no process in place for anyone to do so.

 

[JFlagg]

You have the timing backwards. As part of the 2008 appropriations bill (passed in December 2007) Congress included the new law regulating the sale of ammonium nitrate. That is what you will find at the link in the "statute" portion of the web page linked. This is now firmly in place at 6 USC Part J. That bill also required that the DHS Secratary issue an NPRM within 6 months and a final rule within 1 year. DHS failed to meet either of those deadlines as the NPRM wasn't published until 2011 and there is still no final rule.

So while the law requires buyers and facilities be registered, there is no process in place for anyone to do so.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the most important point is still intact: That congress passed the legislation that required the agency to act (which they have apparently not actually done). It doesn't seem to be a case of a rogue agency, off on their own agenda making rules beyond the scope of the congressional mandate, like perhaps has happened with other agencies.

 

[sschnege]

Now that you mention it, I have nearly died from hearing certain accordion music.

Weird Al Yankovic (whom me and the kids met a few weeks ago after a show) just hired an assassin to kill you.

 

[dgsmith]

It is interesting to read all of this pro/con debate regarding regulations, or the lack of them. My question is really how did this all get started and why. Interesting read that gives a bigger picture of which way our country is headed:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-engelhardt/jeremy-scahill-dirty-wars_b_3138838.html

 

[Right Wing Wacko]

The bill was introduced in the Senate yesterday by Harry Reid.

https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-act...w-background-check-requirement-for-explosives

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) on Tuesday introduced a bill that would require background checks to be run on anyone buying explosive powder, a reaction to last week's Boston Marathon bombing.

Reid introduced the bill, S. 792, for Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), who has been out sick for much of the year. But in a press statement, Lautenberg said the Boston bombing shows that background checks are needed for explosive materials.


Read more: https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-act...w-background-check-requirement-for-explosives

 

[4kids49]

The bill was introduced in the Senate yesterday by Harry Reid.

https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-act...w-background-check-requirement-for-explosives

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) on Tuesday introduced a bill that would require background checks to be run on anyone buying explosive powder, a reaction to last week's Boston Marathon bombing.

Reid introduced the bill, S. 792, for Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), who has been out sick for much of the year. But in a press statement, Lautenberg said the Boston bombing shows that background checks are needed for explosive materials.


Read more: https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-act...w-background-check-requirement-for-explosives

News is saying most of the bp used was taken out of fireworks.

 

[JFlagg]

Well @#$%. Here we go again. Let's try not to get to fired up until we see where this goes. If you are concerned and don't want it passed, you can message your Senators and congressmen. That will have more effect then ranting here.

 

[CCotner]

Why is this in the HPR section? I understand that it has the potential to effect our hobby, but I don't see how, especially at this stage of the process, it is appropriate to discuss this here.

Is it appropriate to ask mods to move this thread to the watering hole?

 

[bobkrech]

You have the timing backwards. As part of the 2008 appropriations bill (passed in December 2007) Congress included the new law regulating the sale of ammonium nitrate. That is what you will find at the link in the "statute" portion of the web page linked. This is now firmly in place at 6 USC Part J. That bill also required that the DHS Secratary issue an NPRM within 6 months and a final rule within 1 year. DHS failed to meet either of those deadlines as the NPRM wasn't published until 2011 and there is still no final rule.

So while the law requires buyers and facilities be registered, there is no process in place for anyone to do so.

Another case of a law being pasted by Congress without thinking of the consequences, or appropriating any funding to carry it out...

The word "any" in the legislation without quantity exceptions makes any regulation unworkable. Taken as written, every store selling any quantity of AN for any purpose must be registered and they must do a background check to make sure the potential purchaser is not a terrorist and is registered...... And the purchaser must keep records of the disposition....

Of course, as usual, no funding was appropriated to insure that the law can be enforced.......

Bob

 

[rcktnut]

Well @#$%. Here we go again. Let's try not to get to fired up until we see where this goes. If you are concerned and don't want it passed, you can message your Senators and congressmen. That will have more effect then ranting here.

No need to do anything: NRA

 

[JFlagg]

No need to do anything: NRA

Yah, most likely. It may eek through the Senate I suppose, but the house will kill it in any case.

 

[cerving]

Pressure from the NRA will probably allow us to keep the status quo on BP, but I can just see them going after the fireworks vendors. Everything is pretty much illegal in CA anyway, except for the "safe and sane" stuff, but most of the cities around SoCal have banned those too. If you really want something, it's not that hard to get it, for legal purposes or otherwise. Laws only keep the honest people honest...

No need to do anything: NRA

 

[shockie]

well if push comes to shove, law-abiding citizens who refuse to submit to government background checks ( once you submit to the background check, fingerprints and dna samples, facial recognition are next for law-abiding citizens) you can always buy fireworks and get BP that way ( as the Boston Bombers did) or you can roll your own with KNO3/S/C assuming KNO3 doesn't make it to the explosives powders list itself....

Terry

 

[JFlagg]

... or you can roll your own with KNO3/S/C assuming KNO3 doesn't make it to the explosives powders list itself....

Terry

Just be aware that manufacture is illegal without a permit in all but about a dozen states (currently legal at Federal level). And part of this bill requires a federal manufacturing permit to make any explosive. (Lets just say that amateur pyro guys are even less happy then you are and their permit burdens are much higher then rockets in general).

 

[Mr_B]

Its pretty sad all around. As a kid, I loved chemistry. I had my own little lab in the utility room. It was fun and I learned a lot. Try to buy lab glassware now. The meth lab type guys caused a clamp down on that. As a teen and young adult, I shifted into electronics. Back then, you could buy the parts and build radios and transmitters and all sorts of stuff. Then I watched as certain assemblies became less functional (blocked freqs, limited LO range, etc) due to regulations concerning "illegal" reception of certain frequencies. I've experienced the full "assault" on rocketry, not only from the BATFE, but the NFPA and CPSC as well. (I was, frankly, amazed that we won the APCP suit; regs almost never become more user friendly.) At my age, I've seen the "slippery slope" in action for a long time. Its quite depressing. I forge ahead now with things which are personally interesting to me, but many of the younger generation(s) didn't even have a chance.

Was all that nerdy geek stuff of any real value to me? I think so; as a kid I wanted to be on a submarine. I completed the Navy's Nuclear Power Program and was an RO on an SSBN. Afterwards, I rode the tech bubble up in telecom and maintained a very comfortable life style. (Till it burst!) After a career change, I've taught secondary math and science. I was able to pursue my curiosity growing up and I learned a lot along the way. It makes me sad when I read the typical "US Education system is failing our kids" reports. Its no surprise to me; most kids can't relate to the usefulness of math and science in a vacuum. Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but society is not as exciting or interesting as it was to me many years ago. Hell, we used to walk down the street with our .22 rifles on the way to plinking around the foothills. Today, someone would call the SWAT team on us.

 

[powderburner]

...... But there are about 100,000 gun purchases (or maybe it's 100,000 people, hard to tell from the few articles that mention this) prevented each year by the current background check requirements. How many of these were potential tragedies that were averted? We don't know....

That number itself (the "100,000") is questionable; I have seen other statistics, it's hard to know which one is accurate.

More important, that total number of 100,000 (or whatever it is) rejected applications includes a high percentage of failures of the system itself. That is, the computer was "jammed" on a particular day during a period of high application activity. The overflow applications are automatically categorized as "rejected" without even looking at them, and almost all of these are from legitimate firearms owners/buyers who had to re-apply (and were properly accepted on subsequent application). It is not clear at all that these 100,000 rejections stopped ANYONE from improperly making their purchase, only that the government database system was overloaded. It is clear that many of these 100,000 simply re-applied and completed their purchases at a later time.

I was one of them.

 

[powderburner]

Its pretty sad all around. As a kid, I loved chemistry. I had my own little lab.......Was all that nerdy geek stuff of any real value to me? I think so.......

Your post sounds very very familiar. Change a few details and it's much of my life story too. (And I'll bet it matches quite a few others here on TRF too.) I have raised three kids, and none of them have had the benefits of the basic science experiments that my teachers performed in the classroom all those years ago. It stikes me that we (our modern society) are now deliberately training them to be stupid.

Today, someone would call the SWAT team on us.

If you look around my house, there are probably enough bits of this-n-that to allow some crazed prosecutor to make a case against me. Let's see.....that stump remover chemical is mostly KNO3.....there are some leftover charcoal briquettes under the grill.....there are some old plumbing hardware pieces in that junk box......there you go, a ticket to the pen. It's frightening. And sad. And pathetic.

 

[plano-doug]

It stikes me that we (our modern society) are now deliberately training [our kids] to be stupid.

I think that, too.

It tends to make them less independent, less self-sufficient.

Doug

.

 

[tmacklin]

Anybody besides me ever received this https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3927 letter? If you don't think Big Brother is watching, think again.