lox/methane

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Hello people,

Has anybody around here have plaid around white liquid oxygen - methane powered rocket's??

If so what are you that's about this thrust delivery system, fuel use vs. thrust level.


Not sure if it is allowed but hire a nice movie of a ground test from a lox/methane engine.
[YOUTUBE]watch?v=mbtvFIEBJdA&feature=channel_video_title[/YOUTUBE]

All-liquid propellant engines are beyond the purview of hobby rocketry... the closest thing we typically use is hybrid rockets using liquid nitrous oxide for an oxidizer and some form of solid propellant (there are many different types) used as fuel. This is the same type of engine used in the Space Ship One that won the Ansari X-Prize a few years ago. These have many of the "ease of handling" and "simplicity" benefits of a solid propellant motor, with the safety benefits of separate oxiders and fuels until combustion is actually taking place (unlike all-solid propellant motors which blend the oxidizer and fuel together into the solid propellant grain).

All-liquid propellant engines (both fuel and oxidizer being liquid) are MUCH more sophisticated and tempermental to start and have operate properly without exploding or otherwise failing. Additionally, handling strong liquid oxidizers and many liquid fuels can be very hazardous-- Liquid oxygen is cryogenic and also extremely susceptible to explode or catch fire if spilled or if it encounters combustible substances (even fingerprint oils) inside fuel lines or other components, which must be METICULOUSLY cleaned beforehand. Even "room temperature" oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide, in 'rocket grade' concentrations are extremely caustic or acidic and can cause severe chemical burns or react violently or explode if mishandled. (Remember reading about the German rocket-planes in WWII that would often explode on landing due to the propellant lines breaking loose, or causing severe injuries to pilots and ground crew who might be exposed to T-stoff or C-stoff (the propellants) which could literally dissolve the flesh off bones.) Room temperature storable propellants like Red Fuming Nitric Acid (RFNA, which it's name pretty much tells you everything you need to know... LOL:)), or nitrogen tetroxide and various hydrazines are all either poisonous or extremely caustic or acidic and very dangerous to handle. Methane is natural gas, and is a pretty 'deep' cryogen, requiring extremely low temperatures and/or extremely high pressures to keep it a liquid, both of which can be dangerous (due to the risk of frostbite from handling it or overpressurizing and bursting the storage container, in addition to its flammability).

Some research has been done on liquid methane engines for spaceflight purposes-- the Orion/MPCV was, when it was first approved, to be powered by a methane SPS engine. This was quickly changed to more conventional storable propellants (nitrogen tetroxide/hydrazine) due to the development costs. Methane propulsion is attractive from the standpoint that it would be easily manufactured on-site on Mars from the Martian atmosphere reacted with hydrogen brought from Earth (or potentially generated from water on Mars through electrolysis) through the Sabatier process. Methane's physical characteristics are also slightly better for rocket propulsion on certain missions for various reasons-- it's denser than liquid hydrogen, so it uses smaller fuel tanks than extremely light liquid hydrogen does (or you can put more of it in a given size tank than you can hydrogen.) It liquifies at a higher temperature and is more resistant to boiloff than liquid hydrogen is, since liquid hydrogen must be kept near absolute zero to minimize boiloff and liquify it. It's liquid temperature is closer to that of liquid oxygen, which simplifies certain aspects of vehicle construction and insulation of the propellants from each other.

Methane has some drawbacks too... having a relatively heavy carbon atom as part of its molecular structure, means that it's theoretical ISP is lower than pure liquid hydrogen (heavier exhaust molecules are harder to accelerate and have lower ultimate velocities in the exhaust stream, lowering ISP). In this way it shares some of the same limitations as other hydrocarbon propellants such as propane and RP-1 (rocket-grade kerosene). For certain applications though, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

Later! OL JR :)
 
My roommate's almost done with a 4k LOX/Methane engine. One of his biggest challenges was getting a system together for methane liquefaction, since it's really hard to find cryo methane that's usable for this kind of work.
 
06-12-07_5M15_5671-w-text.jpg

Why das it look so simple while it is so complicated
 
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Fixed the link

[YOUTUBE]mbtvFIEBJdA[/YOUTUBE]

JD


Hello people,

Has anybody around here have plaid around white liquid oxygen - methane powered rocket's??

If so what are you that's about this thrust delivery system, fuel use vs. thrust level.


Not sure if it is allowed but hire a nice movie of a ground test from a lox/methane engine.
 
It is not beyond the scope of the hobby and TRA Safety Code.

At BALLS we have launched LOX hybrids and H2O2 and some alcohol fuel liquid motors. It would be just the next step to do a LOX liquid motor.
What needs to be done is to petition the TRA BoD to allow it to be launched. Test data, safety procedures and design info are given to them and they evaluate it. So far then have not said no.

Mark
 
It is not beyond the scope of the hobby and TRA Safety Code.

At BALLS we have launched LOX hybrids and H2O2 and some alcohol fuel liquid motors. It would be just the next step to do a LOX liquid motor.
What needs to be done is to petition the TRA BoD to allow it to be launched. Test data, safety procedures and design info are given to them and they evaluate it. So far then have not said no.

Mark

I stongly disagee that a cryogenic fueled liquid rocket motor should be classified as a hobby rocket motor. Any failure of a cryogenic fueled liquid rocket motor results in a detonation, not to mention the possibility of a detonation or deflagration during fueling.

XCOR is a professional aerospace company, and has the expertise to properly design and safely test cryogenic fueled liquid rocket motors. All of their testing is performed at an isolated test facility in the Mojave Desert. IMO a typical hobbyist simply does not have the financing or the expertise to design and build and infrastructure to safely operate one.

Bob
 
It looks as though the nozzle is made of copper. I assume thats because of its high conductivity? Any insight as to why copper would be more ideal than graphite or any other material for that matter? Weight?


Thanks.
 
I'm wondering why one would want to use smoked salmon as a rocket fuel...:)
rex
 
I stongly disagee that a cryogenic fueled liquid rocket motor should be classified as a hobby rocket motor. Any failure of a cryogenic fueled liquid rocket motor results in a detonation, not to mention the possibility of a detonation or deflagration during fueling.

XCOR is a professional aerospace company, and has the expertise to properly design and safely test cryogenic fueled liquid rocket motors. All of their testing is performed at an isolated test facility in the Mojave Desert. IMO a typical hobbyist simply does not have the financing or the expertise to design and build and infrastructure to safely operate one.

Bob

Bob;

In the way you quoted Mark I get the impression that you are saying LOX/Methane motors should not be allowed at allowed to be flown at any TRA sanctioned event to include a Research Launch??

Then theoretically PhD level students (DaveyFire's Roommate) who with the backing of a college could not attend Balls (after petitioning the BoD and getting approval) with their LOX/Methane fueled rocket for a test flight.

With that I disagree. Like Mark said

What needs to be done is to petition the TRA BoD to allow it to be launched. Test data, safety procedures and design info are given to them and they evaluate it. So far then have not said no.

While most colleges have the facilities for static and test firing motors they do not have the facilities to actually launch a rocket. Should they follow the rules and seek BoD approval and follow the requirements and restrictions set forth they should be able to fly motors of this nature.
 
Bob;

In the way you quoted Mark I get the impression that you are saying LOX/Methane motors should not be allowed at allowed to be flown at any TRA sanctioned event to include a Research Launch??

Then theoretically PhD level students (DaveyFire's Roommate) who with the backing of a college could not attend Balls (after petitioning the BoD and getting approval) with their LOX/Methane fueled rocket for a test flight.

With that I disagree. Like Mark said



While most colleges have the facilities for static and test firing motors they do not have the facilities to actually launch a rocket. Should they follow the rules and seek BoD approval and follow the requirements and restrictions set forth they should be able to fly motors of this nature.
So basically the use of liquid rocket motors is prohibited by the TRA Research Safety Code, unless the TRA BOD says it's cool.

Let's agree that we disagree, and leave it at that.​

Bob​




 
I am designing a concept for a large reusable lunar lander that would land on its belly using four methane/LOX engines. Fully loaded, it would mass about 50,000 kg. So each engine would need about 30,000 lb of thrust. It also needs to be throttleable. Does anyone have an idea if any such rocket engine exists worldwide?
 
Curious: why are you looking at 120,000 lbf for a lunar lander with a mass of only 50,000 kg? Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting you, that's about 1.1g of acceleration for something that's landing in 1/6 gravity. (for reference, the LEM fully loaded was about 15,000 kg and had a maximum thrust just under 10,000 pounds - about 1/3g acceleration). A total thrust of about 35,000 pounds would give your 50,000 kg craft the same acceleration performance as the LEM.

And with regards to NOFBX: Every time I see a presentation I get more hopeful they've hit on something cool, especially with those quoted vacuum Isp numbers. But I still get the willies thinking about premixed ox and fuel. I wouldn't want to be one of the engineers facing a safety panel...
 
You have to read their stability testing papers. Good work. They also use 0.1 um sintered metal combustion quenching fiters to prevent flashback into the propellant tank....

Bob
 
Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting you, that's about 1.1g of acceleration for something that's landing in 1/6 gravity.

You are correct. My mistake completely.

The point of my concept is to create a reusable cis-lunar transportation system based upon harvested lunar ice. LH/LOX would be the easiest to produce but I prefer liquid methane due to its better storage and handling characteristics.

For size, the LEM isn't the best analogue. It was much smaller than my lander which does not have to take return fuel to the lunar surface. Also, all of the lander would lift off the Moon. Nothing would be left behind. Also, no propellants could be used unless it could be used in an engine that can run on fuel produced from lunar resources. The goal is to open up the solar system permanently by bringing ice-derived fuel from huge Moon to LEO.

So I guess I should be looking for a methane/LOX engine of about 20,000 lbf. Is that your understanding?
 
Well, this is an interesting thread. :pop:

In all seriousness, though, I agree with Bob Krech. Liquid-fueled rocketry projects should not be mixed with hobby rocketry. There are excellent existing locations and places for safe and 'easy' launching of amateur liquid cryogenic biprop rockets to 50kft; higher than that, and I'm guessing you have the money to get facilities and permits on your own, and don't need to work with amateurs at all. RRS and FAR are examples of such facilities.

It's not that I don't trust the university teams etc. that want to do liquids at BALLS; it's that 1) it's explicitly prohibited by the TRA research code, and B) I don't trust the average BALLS attendee (potentially including myself) around liquid biprop projects. Hobby rocketry, for better or worse, doesn't have the safety-oriented culture (or the fundamental knowledge, probably) that seems necessary to safely operate liquid motors. Edit: consider the frequency of solid motor catos... and how often the fail in violently unsafe ways (ripping the tube apart) rather than popping the ends off.

Also, I freaking love that .gif. :)
 
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Curious: why are you looking at 120,000 lbf for a lunar lander with a mass of only 50,000 kg? Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting you, that's about 1.1g of acceleration for something that's landing in 1/6 gravity. (for reference, the LEM fully loaded was about 15,000 kg and had a maximum thrust just under 10,000 pounds - about 1/3g acceleration). A total thrust of about 35,000 pounds would give your 50,000 kg craft the same acceleration performance as the LEM.

And with regards to NOFBX: Every time I see a presentation I get more hopeful they've hit on something cool, especially with those quoted vacuum Isp numbers. But I still get the willies thinking about premixed ox and fuel. I wouldn't want to be one of the engineers facing a safety panel...

Why are you guys mixing up units?? Why discuss thrust in lbs/force and mass of the vehicle in metric tonnes?? Makes little sense. (and NASA splashed a probe on Mars from conversion goof ups).

If you're interested, look up the horizontal lander concepts done by Lockheed (IIRC). It would use an RL-10 for deceleration down to near the lunar surface, then switch over to thrusters to land horizontally.

Why 50,000 kilos?? You realize that's 50 metric tonnes, which is 110,000 lbs or thereabouts... Even as a 'wet weight' this is a MASSIVE lunar lander, and as we all know, the larger ANY spacecraft is, the more expensive it is. While a reusable lander is laudable, and has been looked at (and some design work done-- suggest you start by looking on NASAspaceflight.com/forums or searching NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS), it's putting the cart before the horse.... there is NO lunar propellant pilot plant experiments being done, to say nothing of actual "commercial scale" operations to produce the propellants for such a lander.

Seems THAT should be the first priority-- proving that the reserves of water ice at the lunar poles are present and commercially produceable reserves (which tends to get overlooked... just because there's oil or gas in a place, even here on Earth, DOES NOT mean that it's actually PRODUCEABLE... there's a LOT of various substances here on Earth that are QUITE valuable, either in quantity or quality, but cannot economically be produced, and therefore will remain where they are... it most certainly remains to be seen whether lunar ice will be present in a form that will be easily accessible enough and that machinery can be constructed to collect and process it in a way that actually makes sense to use it versus other alternatives.)

NASA isn't even committed to robotic exploration of the lunar polar regions... and what is being bandied about isn't even delving into the problems of ISRU... more like rovers simply capable of operating in the environment and testing to see if the hypothesis is true (lunar ice from orbital hydrogen readings, which is all we have at present), IOW, to verify that there is actually water ice present in permanently shaded lunar craters. The problems of ISRU aren't even being addressed-- problems like mining, transport, processing, and storage all remain to be solved, and they are formidable issues considering the native conditions at the lunar poles...

Good luck with your project, but seems to me you need to do TONS (or is it TONNES) more research...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Why 50,000 kilos?? You realize that's 50 metric tonnes, which is 110,000 lbs or thereabouts... Even as a 'wet weight' this is a MASSIVE lunar lander

That is the approximate size that can be fit onto a Falcon Heavy which will likely be the cheapest $/kg to LEO.

there is NO lunar propellant pilot plant experiments being done, to say nothing of actual "commercial scale" operations to produce the propellants for such a lander.

Shackleton Energy Corporation is developing such a plan and Dr Spudis and Tony Lavoie have suggested such a plan. Astrobotic is developing the lunar polar rover to conduct a prospecting mission which will likely determine if the ice is recoverable. The LCROSS mission suggests that it might. IIRC, NASA will be paying Astrobotic for the information about the lunar ice. So, since others are addressing the lunar ice recoverability issues, I would like to look into the transport question.

But...would anyone care to address my question???

Edit: I'm sorry Bob, Looks like your link did address it adequately. Thanks.
 
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A very backwards (NASA) way of doing things-- (the rocket can carry 50 tonnes, so I designed the payload to be-- wait for it-- 50 tonnes... (like there's no such thing as weight growth, etc). Plus, how exactly do you plan to get this mega-lander to the moon?? You're going to need a cryogenic stage on orbit at least the size of a fully fueled S-IVB to push 50 tonnes to the moon... or are you planning to send it out there via a SEP stage spiralling out on a 60 day trajectory unmanned and rendezvous in LLO??

As for the other, lets just say "I'll believe it when I see it".

NASA has been "studying" how to return to the moon and go elsewhere for the last 40 years... the NASA contractors have as well... I doubt you're going to come up with anything they've overlooked. These commercial companies have been putting out a LOT of hot air for a VERY long time already (at least 20 years now) and virtually NONE of it has come to pass... kudos to SpaceX on their Falcon 9 and Dragon to ISS, but they're the ONLY ones (so far) and they don't have THAT many launches under their belt... plus, all this talk of lunar prospecting and all that is WAY past their experience base... It's akin to Kennedy's "moon speech" when we had the sum total of 15 minutes of suborbital spaceflight experience... only difference was, Kennedy had the power and resources of the US Gov't behind him... commercial companies, not so much....

Hopefully you're right and the companies will take up where NASA and the gubmint has dropped the ball... BUT, then again, companies have one thing they have to worry about that the National Astronautical Study Administration doesn't have to worry about... TURNING A PROFIT. Unless spaceflight becomes an order of magnitude (at least) cheaper, there will NEVER be a viable BEO "space resources" venture that will turn a profit, period... if the moon were made of platinum nuggets there for the taking, it STILL wouldn't be profitable to fly there, pick them up, and bring them back...

Press releases are cheap... actually doing this stuff, is VERY VERY HARD (and even MORE expensive!)

Later! OL JR :)
 
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