Designing a kit, how hard could it be?

[user 35280]

I've had several people say my Space-X inspired rocket ought to be a kit, but I cannot even work up the desire to make it available, let alone go to the massive amount of effort. Even if I removed the Space-X from it to get rid of having to deal with Space-X, whew, far too much work I think, for too little return.

Can you post a picture of it?

 

[Bill S]

Downscaled version (uses a BT-55 tube):



Both full sized one (uses an BT-60 tube)and downscaled version:


Lots of balsa nosecones for the wing pods, plus transitions for the rear of the wing pods. Too expensive to even contemplate.

 

[Jeff Lassahn]

I sometimes daydream about there being a company that sells kits designed by scratch builders. A designer would work with them to bring the kit into production, and get a couple of bucks for each kit sold.
I expect such a thing is probably not possible, the work needed to make the kits manufacturable and the complexity of the relationship between the company and the designers would probably be too much.
But it would be awesome if it could happen...

 

[burkefj]

erockets has done that in the past for at least one person

I sometimes daydream about there being a company that sells kits designed by scratch builders. A designer would work with them to bring the kit into production, and get a couple of bucks for each kit sold.
I expect such a thing is probably not possible, the work needed to make the kits manufacturable and the complexity of the relationship between the company and the designers would probably be too much.
But it would be awesome if it could happen...

 

[Jeff Lassahn]

Anyway, back closer to the original topic...

It seems that decals are another weirdly expensive and painful thing to get made.

Everything I've seen available online seems to say that doing a custom run of decals will cost something like $50+ per 8.5x11 sheet. A typical model doesn't need a full sheet of decals, maybe you can fit like eight copies on one sheet. But that still puts the decal cost at like $6 or $7. Which seems unworkable.

On the other hand, custom printed and cut stickers are way cheaper, more like $1 to $2 per set if you get batches of like 20 or 50.

I've never tried using stickers on models. Anyone have any experiences? Do they actually suck really bad?

Also, are waterslide decals secretly way cheaper than I'm finding if you know the secrets?

 

[Scott_650]

Anyway, back closer to the original topic...

It seems that decals are another weirdly expensive and painful thing to get made.

Everything I've seen available online seems to say that doing a custom run of decals will cost something like $50+ per 8.5x11 sheet. A typical model doesn't need a full sheet of decals, maybe you can fit like eight copies on one sheet. But that still puts the decal cost at like $6 or $7. Which seems unworkable.

On the other hand, custom printed and cut stickers are way cheaper, more like $1 to $2 per set if you get batches of like 20 or 50.

I've never tried using stickers on models. Anyone have any experiences? Do they actually suck really bad?

Also, are waterslide decals secretly way cheaper than I'm finding if you know the secrets?

It really does depend on the type of self-adhesive decals you’re using - the “stickers” in some of the Estes E2X/ARF are really not good, thick and not very adhesive at all, barely better than what comes in a Crackerjack box - while the almost as good as cut vinyl self-adhesives in the Quest Advanced kits are close to waterslide quality. The cut vinyl that Stickershock produces are very nice, but still thicker than most any waterslides and can need a clear top coat to protect the inks.

 

[user 35280]

Downscaled version (uses a BT-55 tube):

View attachment 498040

Both full sized one (uses an BT-60 tube)and downscaled version:
View attachment 498041

Lots of balsa nosecones for the wing pods, plus transitions for the rear of the wing pods. Too expensive to even contemplate.

Great work Bill!

 

[user 35280]

I sometimes daydream about there being a company that sells kits designed by scratch builders. A designer would work with them to bring the kit into production, and get a couple of bucks for each kit sold.
I expect such a thing is probably not possible, the work needed to make the kits manufacturable and the complexity of the relationship between the company and the designers would probably be too much.
But it would be awesome if it could happen...

Contact Randy at eRockets.

 

[user 35280]

Anyway, back closer to the original topic...

It seems that decals are another weirdly expensive and painful thing to get made.

Everything I've seen available online seems to say that doing a custom run of decals will cost something like $50+ per 8.5x11 sheet. A typical model doesn't need a full sheet of decals, maybe you can fit like eight copies on one sheet. But that still puts the decal cost at like $6 or $7. Which seems unworkable.

On the other hand, custom printed and cut stickers are way cheaper, more like $1 to $2 per set if you get batches of like 20 or 50.

I've never tried using stickers on models. Anyone have any experiences? Do they actually suck really bad?

Also, are waterslide decals secretly way cheaper than I'm finding if you know the secrets?

Here’s a nice multiple set of plan pack vinyl decals,
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Rocket-Plans/Newsletter-Plans-Decal-SetAlso Sirius Rocketry has some nice water slide decals,
https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop/sirius-decal-sheets-and-supplies-10/

 

[neil_w]

It seems that decals are another weirdly expensive and painful thing to get made.

Yes.

Silk-screened or ALPS-printed decals (so you get opaque colors) are expensive. Inkjet-printed decals are comparatively cheap, but only work on light-colored paint schemes *and* you then have to either clear-coat them yourself or ask your buyer to do it. Laser-printed decals are OK for black lettering and simpler stuff, not so nice looking for full-color designs. Printed vinyl is a possibility, although it imposes some limitations on the nature of the design due to the need to match background colors, and may be a bit heavy for small models. It's not cheap but it can be manageable. Clear stickers are generally not desirable.

 

[Jeff Lassahn]

Clear stickers are generally not desirable

What's undesirable about them?

 

[neil_w]

What's undesirable about them?

Nobody likes them.

 

[Jeff Lassahn]

Nobody likes them.

Yes, I suppose that would make them undesirable, wouldn't it.
Is it that they're hard to work with? Something about the finish that doesn't look good? Are they rude if you invite one to a party?

 

[neil_w]

Are they rude if you invite one to a party?

Bingo.

 

[Jeff Lassahn]

For both inkjet decals and cardstock wraps, transitions, etc. it could be really useful to print and then laser cut. I wonder it that's workable or if registration problems get too difficult.

 

[icyclops]

Yes.

Silk-screened or ALPS-printed decals (so you get opaque colors) are expensive. Inkjet-printed decals are comparatively cheap, but only work on light-colored paint schemes *and* you then have to either clear-coat them yourself or ask your buyer to do it. Laser-printed decals are OK for black lettering and simpler stuff, not so nice looking for full-color designs. Printed vinyl is a possibility, although it imposes some limitations on the nature of the design due to the need to match background colors, and may be a bit heavy for small models. It's not cheap but it can be manageable. Clear stickers are generally not desirable.

I don’t know your printer specifics or decal paper you are using but my inkjet (canon TS8220) prints beautifully on both clear and white decal paper. The colors are intense and when printed on white decal sheet you can use them over a dark background color no problem. The trick is to use a black outline to trim into them so no white edges show and you need to allow for that in your design. Also, if you want to clear spray them for sale, just use a thick paper cut mask so the clear coat does not cover the whole page, just the color decal area. Professional model decals are printed on an offset press, then spot lacquered to achieve this effect. Decals can be made extremely well on inkjets using good decal paper and krylon clear coat spray…..no problems!

 

[thobin]

Having done it there is little to no money in it, unless you can source everything form china and even then its a thin margin. The hard part for me was the instructions, I may have put to much effort into them as I was shooting for Estes / Semroc quality. Hard to find reliable cheap art labor, one of those you get what you pay for kind of things things. Designing the rocket was the easy part, sourcing, artwork, documentation and selling was the hard part. The "You have to have money to make money." is true. I wasn't really out to make money but I wasn't willing to loose money ether. It is a real labor of love for a quite few years, it's just too small of a market, that's why Estes has to sells toys to stay in business.

TA

 

[Ez2cDave]

I still don't want to start a business, but I'm really curious about the details. How hard would it really be? What kinds of problems does a kit design need to solve that a scratch build doesn't?

A "kit" is nothing more than a "scratch-built" model, designed by someone else, with varying degrees of "pre-fabbing" ( lazer-cut fins, body tube(s) cut to length, etc. )

If you are profficient at designing rockets, the only "hard" part is writing clear, concise, cogent assembly instructions, with clear diagrams / photo's.

The thing that prevents most people from marketing kits is the inconvenience and expense of having to buy components from other companies, making it difficult to have competitive pricing and a reasonable profit margin.

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Personally, I prefer designing my own rockets and scratch-building. I avoid kits like the plague, unless there is no alternative. With the exception of Nose Cones and Transition Sections, I hate the use of "plastic" parts in rockets, particularly Fins.

Dave F.

 

[burkefj]

I personally don't find the instruction part that difficult, and I chose to put my instructions exclusively on my web page with many very large clear photos for guidance. It allows me to instantly update or fix any mistakes and I don't have the cost/overhead of printing instructions, it's easy enough for anyone to copy and print the instructions if they really want to. I have a general instruction page on my site that covers the common things that apply to all kits, components needed, launch pad construction, radio equipment, motors, how to load them, painting etc so that doesn't have to be repeated for every kit. I've only ever had one complaint by an older gentleman who did not have a printer and did not want to reference the instructions on his phone in his shop. I've not had any complaints on the clarity of the instructions. My R/C rocket glider kits I purposely design to be VERY simple in construction so that also helps, with the most difficult steps pre-done(slotting and installing spars/hinging surfaces) and much of the assembly is very similar between them which also helps. This pre-fabbing is most of my time cost in the kits. I have tried to make my parts and quantities of parts as common as possible. It is a large paint always to look for alternate sources of things as prices and inventory/suppliers come and go. Balsa Machining has excellent shipping cost for tubing and I use them almost exclusively now. I chose to work with stickershock on cut vinyl decals and he sells them direct on his web site for each of my kits, I include a link to the correct decal sets in the instructions for each kit. I send him an idea of the artwork I want, or a modification of what he currently has with specific colors/sizes and we work out a reasonable set for a reasonable cost. I usually then get one set for my prototype to be sure they fit correctly. I found many people have their own cutter, or want to do their own markings so do not want to pay for high quality cut vinyl and it wasn't worth it to include them and raise prices accordingly. Many highpower flyers are used to getting their decals separately anyway.

 

[neil_w]

I personally don't find the instruction part that difficult, and I chose to put my instructions exclusively on my web page with many very large clear photos for guidance. It allows me to instantly update or fix any mistakes and I don't have the cost/overhead of printing instructions, it's easy enough for anyone to copy and print the instructions if they really want to. I have a general instruction page on my site that covers the common things that apply to all kits, components needed, launch pad construction, radio equipment, motors, how to load them, painting etc so that doesn't have to be repeated for every kit. I've only ever had one complaint by an older gentleman who did not have a printer and did not want to reference the instructions on his phone in his shop. I've not had any complaints on the clarity of the instructions. My R/C rocket glider kits I purposely design to be VERY simple in construction so that also helps, with the most difficult steps pre-done(slotting and installing spars/hinging surfaces) and much of the assembly is very similar between them which also helps. This pre-fabbing is most of my time cost in the kits. I have tried to make my parts and quantities of parts as common as possible. It is a large paint always to look for alternate sources of things as prices and inventory/suppliers come and go. Balsa Machining has excellent shipping cost for tubing and I use them almost exclusively now. I chose to work with stickershock on cut vinyl decals and he sells them direct on his web site for each of my kits, I include a link to the correct decal sets in the instructions for each kit. I send him an idea of the artwork I want, or a modification of what he currently has with specific colors/sizes and we work out a reasonable set for a reasonable cost. I usually then get one set for my prototype to be sure they fit correctly. I found many people have their own cutter, or want to do their own markings so do not want to pay for high quality cut vinyl and it wasn't worth it to include them and raise prices accordingly. Many highpower flyers are used to getting their decals separately anyway.

Putting instructions on the website seems perfectly fine to me as long as the kit itself includes some hard-to-reproduce stuff... maybe not so good if you're trying to sell plan packs.

Letting Mark sell the vinyl directly is a mixed bag. It certainly does simplify life for the seller, and it allows the customer to decide if they want it or not. But it's also more effort for the customer that wants the "complete" kit. I understand this is already a common approach in the HPR kit world.

 

[Jeff Lassahn]

What style of instructions do y'all like?
Some designers do almost all text with few illustrations
Some (e.g. recently Estes) do almost all illustrations
Some use photos, some use line drawings

I'm partial to the style where each step has some text and a line drawn diagram. Probably because that's how Estes did it when I was young.

Also, do like to either get printed instructions or be able to easily print them out. So far this preference means I've not glued or painted my laptop.

 

[burkefj]

Yes, in my case most people aren't willing to invest in the large 6mm depron sheets which is required for my kits so they can't reproduce it and if they try a heavier foam they won't fly worth crap, and what I'm charging for the kits it's nearly impossible for people individually purchase the specific items and not have it wind up more expensive because they have to pay for shipping for all these little items/tubes... Users have to supply their own servos, receiver and battery anyway, so there isn't a "complete kit" concept for what I'm doing.

Putting instructions on the website seems perfectly fine to me as long as the kit itself includes some hard-to-reproduce stuff... maybe not so good if you're trying to sell plan packs.

Letting Mark sell the vinyl directly is a mixed bag. It certainly does simplify life for the seller, and it allows the customer to decide if they want it or not. But it's also more effort for the customer that wants the "complete" kit. I understand this is already a common approach in the HPR kit world.

 

[thobin]

I like a mix of both, if you go for all pictures you better be a good artist or you can just take pictures of the process. I only need measurements and indicate locations really, unless its hard to show some text is helpful.


TA

 

[thobin]

Here is a early incomplete draft of a set of instructions I did, all this layout stuff is not easy unless you are a pro at what ever software you publish it in, which I was not. I had five initial rockets designs ready to go, save the instructions of three of them. Before I realized this was taking way to much time and money for almost zero profit.

Two were 3/4 NC fin designs and the rest were military/NASA one being BT80 size Mercury Redstone, which I believe the build is still some where here in the LPR thread. Anyway a look into the madness, if you have the will and the way id say go for it but it does almost have to be your full time job to do it right and to be worth the while, some can do it I guess. I did have high hopes for more, lots of good designs in my head many that I have built and flown for years.

 

[Cape Byron]

I go for drawings. Clearer and easier to understand IMHO. YMMV, of course.

 

[Ez2cDave]

What style of instructions do y'all like?

Instructions that leave nothing to doubt, basically "idiot-proofed".

(1) Clear, concise text descriptions.
(2) Line drawings with dimensions ( i.e. - Engine Mount construction, Centering Ring spacing, etc. )
(3) Photographs, if more detailed views are required.
(4) A detailed list of all components, including Tube lengths.
(5) Even if fins are lazer-cut, include a full-size Fin Template, in case repairs are needed later ( Yes, I know I could trace the Fins before building ).
(6) A link to a PDF, in addition to printed instructions.

Dave F.

 

[jqavins]

Kit or plan?

That touches a bit on what I want to say. And so does this:

'Designing' kits is easy.

Your thread title is "Designing a kit, how hard could it be?" Designing a kit is probably not too hard (but certainly time consuming). The design has to be bullet proof, such that when people mess up the build a little or use the wrong engines it will still be safe and perform decently, but that isn't doesn't sound hard as long as you take it into consideration from the start.

For all the folks saying that the hard part is writing the instructions, that's not so hard for everybody; some of us have a little talent for technical writing, and writing on a particular subject type just takes a little practice.

On the other hand, producing a kit is hard. Selling a kit is hard. Running a business (and even a "hobby business" is a business) is hard.

To put that another way, designs are relatively easy; plan packs might be not so hard; kits are a whole other ball game.

 

[thobin]

For all the folks saying that the hard part is writing the instructions, that's not so hard for everybody; some of us have a little talent for technical writing, and writing on a particular subject type just takes a little practice.

I bet it's one of the hardest parts for most, like I said unless you are particularly adept at publishing. Not only do you have the difficulty of learning a new program but graphically challenging as well, writing is only part of it. You have to write clearly but draw clearly and publish it a way that it flows and is understandable to a novice. My hats off to those who have that skill, but unless that's what you do for a living, chances are this is going to be a major hurtle for most one man bands. 75% of my development time was instructions but I had to start from zero, those that don't might have an easier time of it.

TA

 

[icyclops]

I bet it's one of the hardest parts for most, like I said unless you are particularly adept at publishing. Not only do you have the difficulty of learning a new program but graphically challenging as well, writing is only part of it. You have to write clearly but draw clearly and publish it a way that it flows and is understandable to a novice. My hats off to those who have that skill, but unless that's what you do for a living, chances are this is going to be a major hurtle for most one man bands. 75% of my development time was instructions but I had to start from zero, those that don't might have an easier time of it.

TA

Ditto! A clear concise illustration is worth many words….as mentioned text only goes so far….you need illustrations as many people do not follow text well unless along with pics or illustrations.
In art school we had an assignment to just illustrate (no words or symbols allowed) a simple procedure like lighting a match from a paper matchbook…it is harder than you think.