Questions about HPR and travelling...

[Tyler P]

So I'm getting closer to having my LOC Iris ready for my L1 certification flight. I've chosen to travel down to Vermont to the Champlain Region Model Rocket Club to do the flight. I'm not sure exactly what month yet.

The question has arisen about what is typically allowed to cross the border with regards to rocketry equipment, especially with HPR.

It would be nice to hear from all the experienced Canadian guys as to what you do when travelling down the USA with your gear.

This, hopefully, will be a good learning thread for all newer ones who want to travel to rocketry events.

 

[Threemorewishes]

Here's what I do and have never had an issue. Call it "model rocketry", leave your motors, black powder and igniters at home. Buy what you need of these on the field. You can bring six E motors back without paperwork.

 

[dr wogz]

Waiting for Bruce or David to chime in..

Tyler, you aren't the first to ask, nor will you be the last... (Maybe we need to make a sticky with pertinent info for Canadians travelling south..)

You are allowed to cross the US border with up to 6 BP motors, up to 'E' impulse, per adult in the car. You can cross the Canadian border with those same 6 BP motors. Nothing more (this is clearly spelled out in the Canada customs rules you can find online)

You can cross the US border with as much APCL you can typically fly in a day / week-end. You cannot bring any APCL that is above your cert level*. You must declare your motors. You cannot, however, bring any unused APCL motors back into Cananda with you. Canada has stricter rules, as described above.. You cannot bring BP over either. It's assumed the little bit that goes in the top of the motor for ejection is 'part of the motor' and is exempt. The can of FFFFG Powder is verboten. You can always ask other club mates for some powder for your ejection charges.. Certain types of igniters are also verboten (unless it came with the motor). Again, you can always ask & 'borrow' one or two..

And, I believe, technically, that any HPR motors require you to have passed the TC test to ensure you know how to transport said motors within Canada. Even if you intend to fly them in the US and have no affiliation with CAR or a Canadian club.. (This is a grey area, from what I've read / people I've spoken to..)

CRMRC doesn't have a vendor on site, so we bring ours down (or have a state-side club mate hold a few for us.) I have brought APCL motors with me when crossing over. One time at MARS (Geneseo), they didn't have a vendor on site, so I could only watch..

It would be nice if CAR had this clearly documented. It would also be nice if the US CBP also had this clearly spelled out (I had to go thru a number of people to find out, many of whom are not the ones in the little booth your drive up to..) Your best course of action her is to get, in writing, the ruling from a US customs import specialist. Then you have something to show the man in the booth you've done your homework..

Lastly, Tyler, if you are worried, I have an H I can sell you, and can lend you a case. It's up to you to build it though..

* I believe, in your particular case, the one motor is allowed as you do plan to do your cert flight. And the only way to do your cert flight is to get a motor.. But, as mentioned, the cert motor should be obtained & held by your mentor.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Waiting for Bruce or David to chime in..

Tyler, you aren't the first to ask, nor will you be the last... (Maybe we need to make a sticky with pertinent info for Canadians travelling south..)

You are allowed to cross the US border with up to 6 BP motors, up to 'E' impulse, per adult in the car. You can cross the Canadian border with those same 6 BP motors. Nothing more (this is clearly spelled out in the Canada customs rules you can find online)

You can cross the US border with as much APCL you can typically fly in a day / week-end. You cannot bring any APCL that is above your cert level*. You must declare your motors. You cannot, however, bring any unused APCL motors back into Cananda with you. Canada has stricter rules, as described above.. You cannot bring BP over either. It's assumed the little bit that goes in the top of the motor for ejection is 'part of the motor' and is exempt. The can of FFFFG Powder is verboten. You can always ask other club mates for some powder for your ejection charges.. Certain types of igniters are also verboten (unless it came with the motor). Again, you can always ask & 'borrow' one or two..

And, I believe, technically, that any HPR motors require you to have passed the TC test to ensure you know how to transport said motors within Canada. Even if you intend to fly them in the US and have no affiliation with CAR or a Canadian club.. (This is a grey area, from what I've read / people I've spoken to..)

CRMRC doesn't have a vendor on site, so we bring ours down (or have a state-side club mate hold a few for us.) I have brought APCL motors with me when crossing over. One time at MARS (Geneseo), they didn't have a vendor on site, so I could only watch..

It would be nice if CAR had this clearly documented. It would also be nice if the US CBP also had this clearly spelled out (I had to go thru a number of people to find out, many of whom are not the ones in the little booth your drive up to..) Your best course of action her is to get, in writing, the ruling from a US customs import specialist. Then you have something to show the man in the booth you've done your homework..

Lastly, Tyler, if you are worried, I have an H I can sell you, and can lend you a case. It's up to you to build it though..

* I believe, in your particular case, the one motor is allowed as you do plan to do your cert flight. And the only way to do your cert flight is to get a motor.. But, as mentioned, the cert motor should be obtained & held by your mentor.

Great post!

 

[dr wogz]

Aww shucks.. thanks!!

 

[markg]

I'll add my anecdotal experience from border crossing the past couple of years. I've probably crossed about 15 times for launches in the past three years. A mix between Detroit and Niagara.

I cross with a variety of LPR/HPR rockets. I have them in the back of my SUV, covered by a blanket. I've never had a customs agent open the trunk to take a look.

I always have a variety of motors, A->K. I have BP separated into 1-4g charges for DD ejection charges.

I also have a variety of igniters.

Each time crossing into the US I tell them I am going to a model rocket launch. After that I get a variety of questions, here's a sample :

Q. Why do you come to the US to launch?
A. There are no launches in Canada

Q. What's the biggest motor you are bringing over? (usually asked by someone interested in rockets)
A. G/H/J/K, whatever I actually have

Q. Do you have any explosives?
A. No

Q. What are the motors made of?
A. Black Powder/APCP

After those, it's usually just the 'how long are you staying/do you have any fruit/how much money do you have?'.

One time crossing at the Niagara border I had a guard who seemed a little reluctant to let me through but in the end he sent me on my way.

It probably helps that I am always travelling with my wife and two kids.

On the Canadian side, I've never had a single rocket question.

cheers - mark

(Furiously knocking on wood)

 

[hutch]

The reason that I will never even attempt to bring motors across the border to a launch in the US is that I'm too chicken. As far as I know, the US Border and Customs inspection people have a great deal of autonomous authority to make decisions. And their decisions are not open to argument or your interpretation of the rules, and are not open to appeal.

I have had friends try to cross the border, and been denied entry merely because the border guard thought that they might be thinking of trying to find work. Others have been denied because they work for a company that sells lighting equipment that might be possibly used in legal marijuana grow operations in Colorado.

Many of the border guards are not completely clear on their own rules and regulations - and if you try to tell them, many of them get offended.

I won't take the risk.

 

[Quixote]

I went online to the NRCan Website, here are a couple three documents relating to acquisition, storage, transport and what actual model and high power motors are currently available for import, sale and use in Canada.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/importation/9907
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/rocket-motors/15934
https://eservices.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/web/elms-esml/products-produits

You can see how much you can legally store, and search all current authorized product from Estes, Cesaroni
, and Aerotech.

As Paul said, you are allowed 6 model rocket motors without an import permit, but you will see that that is up to 80NS or an F. I did not see any restriction on BP only. You can import larger quantities, under an import permit, which the last time I did, back in 2010 cost $160 for the permit. Perhaps clubs might look into that. There are several regional Explosives inspectors available, that , from my past experience were only too happy to answer any questions.

On the four occasions, I traveled to the US to fly, both model and high-power, I purchased and used all product stateside, and any product that I did bring back (two occasions) was with an import permit.

Garth Illerbrun
NAR 26894 L2
CAR S04 (exp)
TRA 817(exp)

 

[Tyler P]

Thanks for posting the links. I spent a pile of time going over the aquistion, storage, and sale section last week due to questions as to whether or not I was allowed to have my H motor for my cert flight. As it turns out, totally legal and then some.

Definitely a good resource that should be stickied in this section. The CAR website was lacking a clear answer to any of these questions and as it turns out, they didn't know that the laws have been what they are for 6 years.

I'll definitely educate myself on the transporting portion of the regs.

I went online to the NRCan Website, here are a couple three documents relating to acquisition, storage, transport and what actual model and high power motors are currently available for import, sale and use in Canada.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/importation/9907
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/rocket-motors/15934
https://eservices.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/web/elms-esml/products-produits

You can see how much you can legally store, and search all current authorized product from Estes, Cesaroni
, and Aerotech.

As Paul said, you are allowed 6 model rocket motors without an import permit, but you will see that that is up to 80NS or an F. I did not see any restriction on BP only. You can import larger quantities, under an import permit, which the last time I did, back in 2010 cost $160 for the permit. Perhaps clubs might look into that. There are several regional Explosives inspectors available, that , from my past experience were only too happy to answer any questions.

On the four occasions, I traveled to the US to fly, both model and high-power, I purchased and used all product stateside, and any product that I did bring back (two occasions) was with an import permit.

Garth Illerbrun
NAR 26894 L2
CAR S04 (exp)
TRA 817(exp)

 

[Tyler P]

And, I believe, technically, that any HPR motors require you to have passed the TC test to ensure you know how to transport said motors within Canada. Even if you intend to fly them in the US and have no affiliation with CAR or a Canadian club.. (This is a grey area, from what I've read / people I've spoken to..)

From the searches I've done, I can't find anything from TC relating to transporting HPR motors. NRC seems to be the authority on that, not TC. TC does have a document for launching HPR. I read about the TC test questions on the CAR site but I'm can't find any info aside from CAR that that's a requirement. TC doesn't seem to have any info in that regard. If NRC is the authority, there doesn't seem to be any grey areas. The 2013 regs are pretty clear, it seems.

I do know that things were different in the past. It would be really great if everyone could share any knowledge and link to any pertinent info they might have, as it doesn't seem super easy to find what I'm looking for on the TC side of things.

Here's the link for the TC guidelines for launching HPR taken from the CAR site: https://www.canadianrocketry.org/files/tc_hpr_reqs_jan00.pdf

Edit: Yes, the first line of the NAR safety code does indicate that I should not possess a motor above my certification level. By law, in Canada anyway, I'm allowed to have it. But by NAR, apparently not. So, what do I do about that to satisfy NAR? Do I hand it over to someone who has their certifications?

Edit 2: So, after reviewing the NAR Section guidelines, the rule regarding holding a HPR motor is due to the US laws related to that. This is where Canada and the US differs for HPR. Chapter 2 of NFPA Code 1127 is what dictates who can hold these motors. NRC doesn't have the same rules, although I guess they did prior to 2013.

 

[dr wogz]

This may help to shed some light on the subject: (An excerpt from my 'conversation' with a senior customs agent.. [names, dates, etc.. removed] This was also then corroborated with the Import specialist. This has passed muster in 1 secondary examination, to which the response was: "You've done your homework, you seem to know a bit more than us on this." )

Garth, I think your info is out of date, as I believe "the lawsuit" from a few years ago pulled APCL off the 'banned' list. The BP 'E' is actually a Canadian Export regulation, but I can see it being an easy to apply rule.

Steve, would you have anything from "the lawsuit" to add to the conversation?

And, for the record, I cross a t little borders to avoid lengthy line-ups. And, I like quite country roads to drive on! I have had more 'rocketry related' questioning from Canadian border guards than their US counterparts.

------------------------
Paul,

In regards to your question on the personal importation of model rocket motors by non-residents of the U.S. for use at local U.S. model rocket club events, I have received the below response from the Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. See below for their response. I am still awaiting a response from our commodity specialists who would be responsible for the commodity in question but I don’t believe CBP would have any further restrictions other than those imposed for normal personal use exemptions afforded visitors to the U.S.

-----------

I received your below inquiry. The short answer is that some rocket motors are exempt from the Federal explosives regulations, while others are not. There is an exemption for certain rocket motors (listed below). If the subject rocket motors meet all three requirements, they would be exempt from the Federal explosive laws and regulations. Also, due to a lawsuit years ago, all motors that only consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) are exempt (regardless of size). Anything else is a regulated explosive material and would require a Federal Explosives License or Permit (FEL/P) to import.



27 CFR § 555.141 Exemptions.

(a) General. Except for the provisions of §§ 555.180 and 555.181, this part does not apply to:

(10) Model rocket motors that meet all of the following criteria -

(i) Consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives;

(ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams of total propellant weight; and

(iii) Are designed as single-use motors or as reload kits capable of reloading no more than 62.5 grams of propellant into a reusable motor casing.


If any of the motors is regulated, a Canadian citizen could not bring them into the United States. In fact, even if the motors were imported into the U.S. by an FEL/P, the Canadian citizen could not legally possess and/or use the motors while in the U.S.

Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks and have a good weekend!

 

[Tyler P]

So what happens if your motor has over 62.5 grams of propellant? Is it a regulated motor at that point? The H135W I chose has 82 grams of propellant.

So it looks like I should look into an H motor with 62.5 grams or less for certification. I wish we had more HPR launch sites on the Canadian side close by.

 

[dr wogz]

Tyler, the way I interpret it, (and others - and the important line)

"all motors that only consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) are exempt (regardless of size). "

so, you're good to go..

 

[Steve Shannon]

All the lawsuit did was remove APCP propellant from the explosive list. It had no effect on UN Classification or DOT Regulations.
We usually tell people to buy their HPR motors in the US. I’ve personally encountered US Customs agents who were very cautious and didn’t have a comfortable knowledge of what can be brought in. This has been a good thread- I don’t have much to offer but I’ll look into this.

 

[dr wogz]

I wish we had more HPR launch sites on the Canadian side close by.

Speak to Greg at the next ORG meeting.. He (and I, briefly) were looking into field locations in the Prescott area (Hawkesbury / Vankleeck Hill) for a suitable field. While they are hard to come by, there is possibly one or two to be had.. we just need to make the right contact!

 

[Tyler P]

Tyler, the way I interpret it, (and others - and the important line)

"all motors that only consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) are exempt (regardless of size). "

so, you're good to go..

Ah, yes, you're correct. I missed that all important line and it makes sense.

As for HPR sites, it would be amazing if we could get a site closer to home that could have a higher ceiling. It is definitely tricky to find large areas of land suitable. I'd like to chat with some of the local farmers in my area to see if there's a chance of using their fields in the fall for non-HPR usage. There are many corn fields out here that would be great for mid-power fun, and some that would be suitable for HPR if we could get the TC permissions.

I thought about putting an ad out, especially to any farmers who are leaving their field fallow for a year or two.

 

[Dipstick]

Thought I'd do some reading and try find an answer myself, alas I couldn't come to a different conclusion...there seems to be no requirement from NRCan that one be certified to hold the motor in question. The requirements come from CAR/ACF, NAR, and TRA that a mentor keep the motor.

As a Canadian who flies with CAR/ACF, that's what I went with until I finished my L4 certification.

I wonder about this statement you made Tyler, "The CAR website was lacking a clear answer to any of these questions and as it turns out, they didn't know that the laws have been what they are for 6 years."

What laws changed? I would think the CAR/ACF website is referring to their own requirements not?
Did you talk to someone with CAR/ACF?

 

[Tyler P]

Thought I'd do some reading and try find an answer myself, alas I couldn't come to a different conclusion...there seems to be no requirement from NRCan that one be certified to hold the motor in question. The requirements come from CAR/ACF, NAR, and TRA that a mentor keep the motor.

As a Canadian who flies with CAR/ACF, that's what I went with until I finished my L4 certification.

I wonder about this statement you made Tyler, "The CAR website was lacking a clear answer to any of these questions and as it turns out, they didn't know that the laws have been what they are for 6 years."

What laws changed? I would think the CAR/ACF website is referring to their own requirements not?
Did you talk to someone with CAR/ACF?

I had been told by someone who had been with CAR for a long time (and apparently had been heavily involved them for the institution of the reciprocating agreements between CAR, NAR, and TRA, that it was a federal offence for someone uncerified to hold a HPR motor. This came up after I had excitedly posted a pic of the motor in question, on Facebook, as my certification motor as I moved toward my L1. This person quoted a discussion that he was having with Greg Dietlein (President of CAR) about my "situation" and Greg also believed this to be the case.

Now I'm not sure there was ever a law against it in Canada. A few people I've chatted with say no, whereas a few others who have been, or are, involved with CAR say yes. If there was a law against it at some point, it would likely have changed in 2013, where it appears that they relaxed the rules on rocket motors and high-power rocket motors somewhat.

My statement about CAR not knowing about the law end of it stemmed from the quoting of Mr. Dietlein by the person who told me it was a federal offence. I have to admit, maybe it was me assuming (you know what happens when people do that, hehe) and jumping to conclusions in this case. No one from CAR directly told me I was in the wrong, but the quote from the president seemed to. I was also told that Mr. Dietlein believed the revision on rocket motors in 2013 to be an error and that they would be discussing it further with NRCan/ERD.

Anyhow, it startled me enough for me to go into full research mode and kept me up until 2:30am that night looking for answers. I want to do things the right way and I was more than a little concerned when I was told I was doing something very wrong.

 

[Dipstick]

Ok, fair enough. Hopefully someone can find a document that either proves/disproves the law.

 

[Tyler P]

As I was still concerned about following the NAR guidlines, I reached out to the NAR High Power Chair. He said it was fine for me to have the cert motor and bring it to the cert attempt. He did think it might not be worth the potential trouble at the border crossing dealing with border staff that might not be fully versed in rocketry motor regs.

Given what I've learned so far, I'm probably going to take some time to educate myself on the US regulatory end of things on importing, so I can quote them if I need to, or even just print a copy of the info I need so I can show it if there are questions.

I'll link to whatever I find. Hopefully we can all learn a thing or two and make it easier moving forward.

 

[Crayok]

The CAR website was lacking a clear answer to any of these questions and as it turns out, they didn't know that the laws have been what they are for 6 years.

Not sure what you mean here Tyler.

David

 

[Crayok]

Yes, the first line of the NAR safety code does indicate that I should not possess a motor above my certification level. By law, in Canada anyway, I'm allowed to have it. But by NAR, apparently not. So, what do I do about that to satisfy NAR? Do I hand it over to someone who has their certifications?

First and foremost the one document that overrides any organization rules is the "Requirements to launch HPR in Canada" that you linked. It is the base standard. Organizations, CAR/ACF, TRA and NAR can have more stringent rules that need to be followed but not less than the TC document. One of the reasons we do not have EX launches above 40960 Ns, don't have "homemade" motors, and the like.

Also TC only deals with what goes into the air not ground transport. ERD by way of NRC deals with transport logistics and category assignment of explosives and also the motor certification is guided through them. It does make things more complicated. The anomaly TC has to deal with is Hybrids and they are responsible for the certification of those types of motors.

Hope this helps
David

 

[Tyler P]

Not sure what you mean here Tyler.

David

Sorry, slightly erroneous statement on my part. Their wasn't obvious info relating to federal laws against possessing a motor above your cert level. The reason for this is that there isn't any law against it. I should edit my post.

EDIT: If you didn't read post #18, that spells out where things went a little wonky with regards to my statement.

I definitely didn't mean to sound like CAR doesn't have a handle on things. It just took a bit of digging to find the answers I was looking for, and had been led a bit sideways by somebody else.

 

[Tyler P]

First and foremost the one document that overrides any organization rules is the "Requirements to launch HPR in Canada" that you linked. It is the base standard. Organizations, CAR/ACF, TRA and NAR can have more stringent rules that need to be followed but not less than the TC document. One of the reasons we do not have EX launches above 40960 Ns, don't have "homemade" motors, and the like.

Also TC only deals with what goes into the air not ground transport. ERD by way of NRC deals with transport logistics and category assignment of explosives and also the motor certification is guided through them. It does make things more complicated. The anomaly TC has to deal with is Hybrids and they are responsible for the certification of those types of motors.

Hope this helps
David

Yes, as I've been researching this a lot, I now understand these things pretty clearly, now.

Very nicely spelled out, though. Good post for sure.

 

[KoboldMeister]

Can you purchase HPR rocket motors in Canada and drive them back to the US?

 

[Tyler P]

Can you purchase HPR rocket motors in Canada and drive them back to the US?

Good question...I believe you probably could, as you can bring as much as you can fly into the USA if you're coming from Canada, but can't go back with it into Canada. So if you're coming from Canada to a US launch and your launch is scrubbed, you would have to sell the motor off before coming back. That's why most of the guys I know just buy on-site when going to US launches.

But the other way around, I'm not 100% sure.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

If you bring a Canadian K-Motor down to a U.S. launch; does it then only have a J-Motor's total impulse?

 

[Tyler P]

If you bring a Canadian K-Motor down to a U.S. launch; does it then only have a J-Motor's total impulse?

Lol, maybe! The US exchange is pretty rough, haha.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Good question...I believe you probably could, as you can bring as much as you can fly into the USA if you're coming from Canada, but can't go back with it into Canada. So if you're coming from Canada to a US launch and your launch is scrubbed, you would have to sell the motor off before coming back. That's why most of the guys I know just buy on-site when going to US launches.

But the other way around, I'm not 100% sure.

I don’t believe an individual user can bring high power motors into the USA from Canada. We never were able to coming back from RocLake.

 

[Tyler P]

Canadians can go to the US with motors for sure, but maybe not so with US citizens coming back into Canada? But we can't come back into Canada with them.