Ok, what to do with a kit & no fins?

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FishnBeer

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I got a rocketarium kilter arm kit a little while back. Started on it, built/installed motor mount and tail cone and then the fin templates walked off somewhere, I think the kid had something to do with it.

So I want to go with a different fin profile. I like the look of the mim-23 Hawk missiles. How do I figure out the size of the fins? I got some 1/8 basswood, do I just eyeball it/trial + error? Its a BT60 tube, 14" long. Where do I go from here?
 
Have you tried asking Rocketarium for help? They have some fin sets for other kits on their site - maybe they can do something similar for yours.
 
Alright I said screw it and went ahead and made up some fins out of 3/32 basswood. No real planning went into it, I had a style in mind and kinda eyeballed it to a somewhat scale size. I still need to add some fillets all around but it looks good.
So how do I figure out how much weight to add? I know there are programs out there but I do not have access to a PC and from what I can tell there is no free android based rocket software.
 
That image of the simulation can guide you. The CG looks like it should be just at the forward fin's root tips when the motor is loaded

Id counsel you to make the noseweight adjustable. That way you can load the motor in, and add weight until it balances at the front of the fins
 
All sims start without a motor.

You are of course correct. All sims start without any parts at all.

But the purpose of a rocket simulation is to see if the rocket is stable. And without a motor, a model rocket isn't a rocket. It's a static display.
 
You are of course correct. All sims start without any parts at all.

But the purpose of a rocket simulation is to see if the rocket is stable. And without a motor, a model rocket isn't a rocket. It's a static display.

I think his point in sharing that snip was just to provide the fin outlines.

Personally, I think the dry sim is most useful since it shows the neutral unloaded CG and the CP. If you know a good estimate of the CP, you can balance it for any motor.
 
I think his point in sharing that snip was just to provide the fin outlines.

Personally, I think the dry sim is most useful since it shows the neutral unloaded CG and the CP. If you know a good estimate of the CP, you can balance it for any motor.

Balance it with how much weight? That's the advantage of a sim, it allows you to put in any motor... and optimize the design.
 
Im aware Lake, I do the same when I actually make a sim. But Titan posted 1 snip of his sim in order to show the fin profiles for the OP's benefit.

The OP just mentioned he doesnt have access to a computer. Without access to a sim program, his best bet is to either build the thing and balance it as I mentioned above. He can do that experimentally, or he can calculate it by hand using lever laws
 
String test then add NC weight until the rocket stops flying backwards.
The above will result in a very nose heavy rocket.


That image of the simulation can guide you. The CG looks like it should be just at the forward fin's root tips when the motor is loaded

Id counsel you to make the noseweight adjustable. That way you can load the motor in, and add weight until it balances at the front of the fins
^^^^^^^ do the above.

Using a swing test to add nose weight will make a very heavy nose. Remember that a swing test is only valid if the rocket starts with a normal angle of attack.
 
Some years back I purchased the original Centuri 1/100 scale Saturn - V; it stayed in the box for many years until I finally got around to building it 2005 or so. Only then I discovered several of the vacu-formed plastic fins were missing (2 to be exact). No problem, I simply used the fin pattern of the Estes 1/100 (K-36) scale Saturn - V using balsa as a substitute. Worked just fine. I even flew it (the Centuri Saturn) once without the clear slip on fins (having added a little more weight in the forward section) and it flew just fine, but a bit squirrely. 1611978171079.png1611978339913.png
 
Thanks. Why do a simulation, without a motor? Kind of counterproductive.
If the dry sim doesn't have a CG to CP of something greater than 1, then you need to add nose weight. You add nose weight, then you sim with motors to see how the caliber changes. You keep adding weight until the caliber is at least one or the rocket is so heavy it just sits on the pad like one big chuff. Then you name it "Going Nowhere" and add that to the bad rocket name post.
 
If the dry sim doesn't have a CG to CP of something greater than 1, then you need to add nose weight.

A simulation, without a motor, tells you nothing about stability of the rocket.

On a BP rocket, what is a "dry sim"? That's a term I haven't seen before, except for liquid propellants.
 
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[I see you've edited your post]

We've gotten into subjective territory here Lake. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Perhaps thats because when you build mid and high power rockets, there's a large range of motors (and motor weights) so your simmed front mass can change for each motor.

Dry means without the motor/fuel/gas/boom-juice/whoosh-generator
 
If by "dry" sim you mean a rocket without a motor, your comment is incorrect. Many folk design such that the simulation, with the motor, has a stability of +1.

A simulation, without a motor, tells you nothing about stability of the rocket.
My comment is not incorrect when taken in full context of the post, sorry. I stated that after you did the dry sim for an initial estimate you added nose weight if needed (or you lengthen the design or you make the fins bigger, they all affect stability) and "then you sim with motors to see how the caliber changes". That was in the second sentence. Duh! If you read the post from beginning to end, it was actually attempting to add a bit of humor to the conversation. Alas, it failed miserably on you.

Everyone needs to design for a caliber of 1+ with a motor installed, unless, of course, it's fat and stubby (.75 is usually sufficient) or has tube fins, or finless rockets using Gas Stabilized Induction for which you will never get a decent sim (because the CG will always be behind the CP but will fly just fine if you understand the physics and built it right). Sims with motors don't always tell the full story; sims don't cover all the bases (unless you only fly 3FNC - boring!).

My method is what you do during a build to get an early read on CG/CP. If you aren't using standard parts in the DB (and a LOT are not in the parts DB), you weigh each part and update the model in the software. What attachment points are you using for your recovery harness on the top centering ring? A single welded eyebolt? Two u-bolts for a Y harness? No two builds are the same. Many things can change those CG/CP locations depending on how the individual does the build (and seemingly small adjustments in the design can have big affects on stability), especially if it is a scratch build or a kit bash (and I kit bash virtually everything). For example, I cut off the butt end of any plastic nose cone on models 2.6" or greater and custom build a removeable bulkhead design, so I can add a tracker and/or weight in the finished model. Essentially, all of my bigger birds are custom.

Some folks try to build light and strong for altitude, some overbuild for survivability. I'll guarantee if you use a Rocksim or OpenRocket file from someone else's build and you make it with the exact same parts, it is not going to weigh the exact same nor have the CG/CP in the same locations. One build could fly fine on a big motor and be unstable with the same motor in a seemingly identical bird. For example, there are a zillion ways to fillet a fin can and how you do it will change the weight (e.g., injection for internal fin can fillets vs. keeping the rear CR off until the very end). Which epoxy you use and how much can make big differences. I tend to fly with a wide range of motors in any given model, starting low and slow to see how it performs and ramping up if it passes muster. So, I know I need a dry sim caliber greater than 2, maybe even 3, from the get-go. That comes from experience. I weigh, update, evaluate as I go. I'm an engineer by training. My build method comes with the territory.

Finally, when I'm done with the build, I weigh the finished (DRY) model, find the real (DRY) CG, do a (DRY) swing test if I need reassurance of the CP and put overrides into Rocksim. THEN, I rerun all of the motored sims.
 
[I see you've edited your post]

We've gotten into subjective territory here Lake. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Perhaps thats because when you build mid and high power rockets, there's a large range of motors (and motor weights) so your simmed front mass can change for each motor.

Dry means without the motor/fuel/gas/boom-juice/whoosh-generator

Edit to Live, Live to Edit. ;)

Nytrunner, pretty sure we are in agreement, at least as I see it.

.... when you build mid and high power rockets, there's a large range of motors (and motor weights) so your simmed front mass can change for each motor...

So you run a simulation .. "Using A Large Range Of Motors"

That's my point.. without entering those motors in the simulation, you don't know how much to change the front mass.

Again I state:"

A simulation, without a motor, tells you nothing about stability of the rocket.

And it's not just mid and high power. Here's a screen shot of the OR sims for my x-wing. One is a D12, another a C6-5 using a different nose ballast and a motor adapter. For the ballast changes I used a threaded stud so I can change the number of steel washers.

Open Rocket Sim X-Wing on a C6-5.jpgOpen Rocket Sim X-Wing on a D12.jpg010.JPG24 to 18 Motor Mount.JPG
 
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My comment is not incorrect when taken in full context of the post, sorry.

Apology accepted. :computer:

Just kidding. The lengthy description of your design and post build process, with very few exceptions, defines what I do also.

Check out some of my build threads links are below in my sig line.
 
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Whenever I dig out the reloading scale I can get an idea of overall weight. I did not know about the string method, I had to look that up. Good to know!

Heres what I am workin on. It has a paper tail cone... anything I can do to add some strength to it? Let some thin CA glue soak into it?20210131_171706.jpg
 
Thin CA is a decent way to get the tailcone to be more rigid as mentioned above. Note that I have had CA start smoking like (enter bad word here) when soaking in a lot, so if you're new to putting a lot of CA on paper, cotton or other materials, start slow and be prepared for tons of fumes and even real heat.

As far as a the swing test, in my opinion, it is something many people read about and never try. With modern sim tools, it is likely unnecessary, but it can be fun and can be a learning experience.

Given how long your fins extend up the tube body, it will probably be difficult to get the string at the CG, as fins will be in the way, but maybe not.

If that's the case, I would encourage you to take some scrap, build something with somewhat small fins, put a C6-5 motor in it and do the swing test. Hopefully it tumbles all over the place. Then put in an A8-3. Maybe it won't tumble, maybe it will. Add some noseweight, repeat, switch motors, extend the tube etc. - literally just go in the yard and swing a cheap, small rocket around on a string for an hour. It actually can be fun. Once you're done, you might never do it again, but I like looking at old-school techniques to help broaden my education/experience. At times, it can really help.

Cool looking rocket, BTW. It should be fun to fly.

Sandy.
 
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