TARC frustration: advice needed

[cbrarick]

I think you should consider helping them. It's pretty clear they lack the mentorship from others, time to build or knowledge to get done and flying. Go in knee deep, show one, do one style. Let them fly both, take times, adjust ballast and get scores. Just don't send them in. Make this deal before you wade in, get the kids to agree that this year is for fun and learning, next year for competition. That will bring the fun back and keep the interest up. Utter failure due to lack of direction and knowledge will generally discourage students and the TARC team will fizzle.

JMHO

 

[cbrarick]

12 k

 

[Ez2cDave]

I think you should consider helping them. It's pretty clear they lack the mentorship from others, time to build or knowledge to get done and flying. Go in knee deep, show one, do one style. Let them fly both, take times, adjust ballast and get scores. Just don't send them in. Make this deal before you wade in, get the kids to agree that this year is for fun and learning, next year for competition. That will bring the fun back and keep the interest up. Utter failure due to lack of direction and knowledge will generally discourage students and the TARC team will fizzle.

JMHO

I'm located near Raleigh, NC, roughly 350 - 400 miles from them ( other than "Northern New Jersey", no city was mentioned ). That makes it impossible for me to be able to show them anything "hands-on" or be able to directly supervise them. It could be done via email, but it would probably "look" like I was telling them what to do.

From what I can tell here, they have "barely" launched a model rocket before ( except for the booster motor "fiasco" ). They certainly have never been taught anything about how to design a rocket and "barely" how to build one. Actually, by them flying an "old design", done by another TARC team, they are violating the rules. I take a "hands-on" approach to teaching Rocketry, due to the skills involved and the need for "instant feedback", at times.

Now, with that said, as long as it is NOT for "actual" TARC flying THIS YEAR, I would be happy to provide them with a "basic", competitive BT-70 design, using simple methods and materials, along with step by step building instructions, that meets the requirements of this year's TARC contest.

Personally, I'd like to know who their NAR Mentor is and hear the story from their perspective . . . These are the New Jersey TARC Mentors ( below )

Their contact information is available here : https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Mentor-List-24-Jan-2019.pdf

NEW JERSEY

Steve Humphrey - Warren, NJ
Scott Alexander - Warren, NJ
Art Treiman - Cherry Hill, NJ
Jim & Linda Szypula - Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
Bruce Canino - Williamstown, NJ
Barry Berman - Mantua, NJ
Fred Taverni - Hackettstown, NJ
Stephen Coker - West Berlin, NJ
Mike Zapolski - Bridgeton, NJ
Joe Dunay - Edison, NJ
George George - Carlstadt, NJ


Dave F.

 

[neil_w]

Thank you for the offer but I am more than capable of providing said information. However I cannot force it upon them. I try to provide helpful input when the opportunity arises. Given limited time remaining this year I don't think it makes sense to start a new rocket when the current one can be made flyable.

Also worth noting: they're in 8th grade, last year of middle school. Next year they will be at high school in a different town. To the best of my knowledge, there is no TARC team at that school. Therefore, the odds of them continuing as a team next year are small. Whether any of them would be sufficiently motivated to start up a new team next year, or go find a team somehow in a nearby town, I don't know. As far as I could tell, these were not kids that were really into this in the first place, just seemed like a fun thing to do. Which makes it even less likely that they'll want to continue next year, after the experience this year.

Nonetheless I still hope to be able to get them to attempt some qualifying launches this year, but it's gonna be tight.

 

[JJSR]

Dave
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink,,,
It's up to them to reach out in a timely manner. Mentors can't reach out not knowing what new teams are in their area.

You know that this team is not here on the forum. Right?
It's Neil a very accomplish builder trying his best to help them.
I've had 3 teams reach out this year, with no response. I don't know how to have them check their email,,, do you??
Again THEY have to reach out..
All the info is on the TARC website, it's up to them to read it.

 

[shreadvector]

 

[Ez2cDave]

Thank you for the offer but I am more than capable of providing said information.

Neil,

You started this thread 11 days ago, asking for help . . . See where I am going with this ?

QUOTE :

"I have no intention of "fixing" the team or becoming an advisor, just want to help them make sure their rockets are safe and flyable until they learn enough to be able to ensure it on their own. But I have zero TARC experience and almost all my own experience is with LPR, so there are an assortment of techniques here that I certainly know of but have never actually used"

END QUOTE :

I am done "tilting at windmills" . . . https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tilt+at+windmills

Time is short, better start providing that information, Neil.

Dave F.

 

[neil_w]

Fair criticism (sort of), but needing to fill in a few knowledge gaps is not the same as requesting that someone come in and take over for me and restart everything from scratch. At this point most of my gaps have been filled in, and my biggest obstacles at this point are logistical.

In any case thank you for your input so far.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Fair criticism (sort of), but needing to fill in a few knowledge gaps is not the same as requesting that someone come in and take over for me. In any case thank you for your input so far.

Neil,

So, who is their NAR Mentor ?

They should have been filling in those "knowledge gaps".

I'd like to hear what he has to say about the situation . . .

Steve Humphrey - Warren, NJ
Scott Alexander - Warren, NJ
Art Treiman - Cherry Hill, NJ
Jim & Linda Szypula - Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
Bruce Canino - Williamstown, NJ
Barry Berman - Mantua, NJ
Fred Taverni - Hackettstown, NJ
Stephen Coker - West Berlin, NJ
Mike Zapolski - Bridgeton, NJ
Joe Dunay - Edison, NJ
George George - Carlstadt, NJ

Of course, I could just email each of them and direct them to this thread.

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

I don't know how to have them check their email,,, do you??

Joe,

Get their cellphone numbers . . . Text them . . . Teenagers "live" on their phones, nowadays !

Dave F.

 

[neil_w]

I believe I know who it is, need to double-check. Perhaps I'll reach out to him directly. I do not know at all to what extent they were consulted during all this; if I had to guess I'd say he was consulted early on but then not so much afterwards.

Get their cellphone numbers . . . Text them . . . Teenagers "live" on their phones, nowadays !

Now this is quality advice. Email is for old people (like me)... texting them on their cellphones is the way to reach them for sure.

 

[JJSR]

Joe,

Get their cellphone numbers . . . Text them . . . Teenagers "live" on their phones, nowadays !

Dave,

I would if they included a phone number in the emails.
It gets frustrating,

 

[Ez2cDave]

I would if they included a phone number in the emails.
It gets frustrating,

Tell them your going to throw a party for the Team . . . You'll get phone numbers . . . LOL !

On a serious note . . . Contact their Teacher and get Parent contact information . . . The parents will provide the numbers, just to keep from having to "relay messages" all the time.

Dave F.

 

[JJSR]

Dude you just don't get it do you???
All I have is an email address that NO ONE REPLYS TO!!!

Maybe you could hire a private detective and track them down for me...

 

[neil_w]

I guess at some point if they don't want to be contacted (or fail to make sufficient effort to be contactable) then there's just nothing more you can do, annoying as it might be.

 

[JJSR]

We even posted on the club's contact page for people to check their spam folders for our replys. Seems our .org address gets filtered a lot.
Like I said "you can lead a horse"

 

[Ez2cDave]

Dude you just don't get it do you???
All I have is an email address that NO ONE REPLYS TO!!!

Maybe you could hire a private detective and track them down for me...

You don't know their names or the name of the school of a team you are mentoring ?

Why do they even bother entering TARC, at all ?

Dave F.

 

[mikec]

Maybe it would make more sense for the individuals involved to continue this discussion via PM or something.

Best of luck to the team the OP is involved with.

 

[JJSR]

You "seem" like a "smart" guy, why is it so hard for you to understand that on first contact "them sending me an email" I respond but they don't.
I wouldn't say I'm their mentor just cause I received an email from some kid.

"Hi my name is aboo I'm captain of our TARC team we're looking for a mentor. Can you help us"

Not much anyone can do with that,,,
But respond to the email address given.
If they don't email back there's no way to do anything for them.
I always get the team leader and teachers phone numbers. So I can get them Immediately if there is a chance of good weather on a non schduled club launch weekend and or have to cancel a launch.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Best of luck to the team the OP is involved with.

They're gonna need it . . . Poor kids !

Dave F.

 

[JJSR]

They're gonna need it . . . Poor kids !

Dave F.

You need too stop talking through your mmt,,,,

 

[Ez2cDave]

You need too stop talking through your mmt,,,,

Go play with your stuffer tube . . .

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Thank you for the offer but I am more than capable of providing said information. However I cannot force it upon them. I try to provide helpful input when the opportunity arises. Given limited time remaining this year I don't think it makes sense to start a new rocket when the current one can be made flyable.

Also worth noting: they're in 8th grade, last year of middle school. Next year they will be at high school in a different town. To the best of my knowledge, there is no TARC team at that school. Therefore, the odds of them continuing as a team next year are small. Whether any of them would be sufficiently motivated to start up a new team next year, or go find a team somehow in a nearby town, I don't know. As far as I could tell, these were not kids that were really into this in the first place, just seemed like a fun thing to do. Which makes it even less likely that they'll want to continue next year, after the experience this year.

Nonetheless I still hope to be able to get them to attempt some qualifying launches this year, but it's gonna be tight.

Thank you for doing what you’re doing.

 

[firpisto34]

we tried flying our rockets last weekend and I've attached the video of the launch. It went about 80 ft under the limit but I suspect the motor (F39-6t) was too small to get it to 856 ft. We plan on changing to an f35-8w but I've been looking at the video and I noticed something. If you look at the rocket as soon as it leaves the guard rail, you can see that the rocket doesn't fly straight up but to the left (towards the guide rail) right after it leaves the rail. I can't tell if this is because of the wind. My suspicion is that because the rail buttons and the metal parachute anchor are both attached on the left side, the rocket is tipping slightly to the left after it launches leading to a lower altitude. This is my first time building a rocket so I don't know how much of an effect this can have. Any Ideas to why it's leaning? Also the video shows the delay charge going off and I'm not sure if it going off a little too early. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Here is the video:
watching it at .25 speed makes it easier to see

 

[afadeev]

It went about 80 ft under the limit but I suspect the motor (F39-6t) was too small to get it to 856 ft. We plan on changing to an f35-8w but I've been looking at the video and I noticed something.

Was your altitude consistent with OpenRocket simulation?
What was the optimal ejection charge timing per OR?

If you look at the rocket as soon as it leaves the guard rail, you can see that the rocket doesn't fly straight up but to the left (towards the guide rail) right after it leaves the rail. I can't tell if this is because of the wind. My suspicion is that because the rail buttons and the metal parachute anchor are both attached on the left side, the rocket is tipping slightly to the left after it launches leading to a lower altitude.

How long is your launch rail, and what speed is the rocket simulated to have gained at the point of leaving the launch rail?
If below ~50 ft/s, it may be liable to "wiggle" until speeds increase, and aerodynamic stability is achieved.

How windy was it the day of the flight?
Flying into the wind (aka weather-cocking) is common, especially with "over-stable" rockets, which yours is likely to be, given the 3-eggs payload in the nose!

Also the video shows the delay charge going off and I'm not sure if it going off a little too early.

There are two ways to validate optimal ejection charge timing:
1). Run simulations in OpenRocket (free) or RocketSim (pay) for your rocket's weight and motor, and see what it should ideally be.
2). Fly with a JullyLogic-type altimeter (easy clip-onto the shock cord) that will record speed, altitude, and timing of the ejection charge. You want to ejection charge to go off right at apogee, or a second after you've hit apogee. The ejection shock will be recorded by the altimeter, and you will be able to analyze what's really going on.

HTH,
a

 

[firpisto34]

Was your altitude consistent with OpenRocket simulation?
What was the optimal ejection charge timing per OR?

the optimal ejection charge was 6 seconds which is what we used.
altitude on OR was 866 ft and the flight only went up to 179 ft

How long is your launch rail, and what speed is the rocket simulated to have gained at the point of leaving the launch rail?
If below ~50 ft/s, it may be liable to "wiggle" until speeds increase, and aerodynamic stability is achieved.

How windy was it the day of the flight?
Flying into the wind (aka weather-cocking) is common, especially with "over-stable" rockets, which yours is likely to be, given the 3-eggs payload in the nose!

I dont know how to simulate launch rail speed on open rocket. The day was moderately windy maybe 5 m/s or 12 mph and the stability of the rocket on OR was 1.8 Cal.



There are two ways to validate optimal ejection charge timing:
1). Run simulations in OpenRocket (free) or RocketSim (pay) for your rocket's weight and motor, and see what it should ideally be.
2). Fly with a JullyLogic-type altimeter (easy clip-onto the shock cord) that will record speed, altitude, and timing of the ejection charge. You want to ejection charge to go off right at apogee, or a second after you've hit apogee. The ejection shock will be recorded by the altimeter, and you will be able to analyze what's really going on.

very helpful thanks, ill look for the jolly logic type altimeter

HTH,
a[/QUOTE]

 

[boatgeek]

How long is your launch rail, and what speed is the rocket simulated to have gained at the point of leaving the launch rail?
If below ~50 ft/s, it may be liable to "wiggle" until speeds increase, and aerodynamic stability is achieved.

How windy was it the day of the flight?
Flying into the wind (aka weather-cocking) is common, especially with "over-stable" rockets, which yours is likely to be, given the 3-eggs payload in the nose!

I dont know how to simulate launch rail speed on open rocket. The day was moderately windy maybe 5 m/s or 12 mph and the stability of the rocket on OR was 1.8 Cal.



There are two ways to validate optimal ejection charge timing:
1). Run simulations in OpenRocket (free) or RocketSim (pay) for your rocket's weight and motor, and see what it should ideally be.
2). Fly with a JullyLogic-type altimeter (easy clip-onto the shock cord) that will record speed, altitude, and timing of the ejection charge. You want to ejection charge to go off right at apogee, or a second after you've hit apogee. The ejection shock will be recorded by the altimeter, and you will be able to analyze what's really going on.

very helpful thanks, ill look for the jolly logic type altimeter

HTH,
a

Looking at the video, something got messed up with the altimeter if it only recorded 179' altitude. It looks like it went quite a bit higher than that, probably up close to the target altitude. The best guess for why the altimeter read low is that it didn't get a good air sample. Do you have small holes (say 1/8") drilled in the body tube in the bay where the altimeter is? If not, that's your problem. If you do, check how you are padding/securing the altimeter to make sure it's not stopping air from getting to the altimeter sensor.

For rail speed, there is a column in OpenRocket for "Velocity off rod" in the simulation results column. RockSim should have something similar. You can set the launch rod/rail length in the Simulation Options window. Your rail length is the distance from the top of the rail to the top rail button. If you have a launch lug/rail button modeled in OpenRocket, it will do some math for you to adjust the rail length. In that case, you would set the rail length to the full rail length and OR will reduce the length by the distance from the bottom of the rocket to the launch lug/rail button. That is confusing to me and not well documented, so I prefer to not model the rail buttons and just directly input the rail length.

The amount of weathercocking in the video is pretty typical for that amount of wind and that stable a rocket.

If you have a Pnut altimeter, you can often see the ejection charge shock in the data downloaded from the altimeter. Of course, if it's not getting good data (see first paragraph), you won't get good data.

 

[neil_w]

That looked like garden variety weather-cocking to me.

 

[firpisto34]

Looking at the video, something got messed up with the altimeter if it only recorded 179' altitude. It looks like it went quite a bit higher than that, probably up close to the target altitude. The best guess for why the altimeter read low is that it didn't get a good air sample. Do you have small holes (say 1/8") drilled in the body tube in the bay where the altimeter is? If not, that's your problem. If you do, check how you are padding/securing the altimeter to make sure it's not stopping air from getting to the altimeter sensor.

For rail speed, there is a column in OpenRocket for "Velocity off rod" in the simulation results column. RockSim should have something similar. You can set the launch rod/rail length in the Simulation Options window. Your rail length is the distance from the top of the rail to the top rail button. If you have a launch lug/rail button modeled in OpenRocket, it will do some math for you to adjust the rail length. In that case, you would set the rail length to the full rail length and OR will reduce the length by the distance from the bottom of the rocket to the launch lug/rail button. That is confusing to me and not well documented, so I prefer to not model the rail buttons and just directly input the rail length.

The amount of weathercocking in the video is pretty typical for that amount of wind and that stable a rocket.

If you have a Pnut altimeter, you can often see the ejection charge shock in the data downloaded from the altimeter. Of course, if it's not getting good data (see first paragraph), you won't get good data.

im sorry i meant 179 m which is 587 ft

 

[Ez2cDave]

It was straight, off the rail. Weather-cocking is the culprit, try tipping the launch rail about 5 degrees WITH the wind. That will compensate for the weather-cocking. Of course, the angle required will vary with wind speed.

As for the actual length of the Delay, you really have no control over that.