X-20, Space Shuttle, X-37 and Buran RC BG discussion

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burkefj

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Here are a couple of snapshots of my two latest, an X-20 and a shuttle, both for Aerotech 24mm reloads and RC. The X-20 has flown, the Shuttle needs the bottom painted black and test flight. The Dyna-soar is 32" long and weighs 11 oz rtf with motor, and the shuttle is 35" long and looks like it will weigh 13.5 oz rtf.

Link to dyna-soar flight video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMqW5S2MqXU

Enjoy.

Frank

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shuttle-almost-done.jpg

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As usual, awesome models, Frank!

You know, something just occurred to me....in all the years I've built/flown delta gliders, I've NEVER done a Space Shuttle Orbiter!

It appears that yours is a full bodied craft and NOT your typical X-formed flat surfaced deal, right? Of course, you can bend Depron into a BIG body and save gobs of weight. Especially if it doesn't have to bear much flight stress, and your prop/E6 boosts aren't.

Can't wait to see a vid of the orbiter flying!
 
Yes, these are scratch builds, 6mm and 3mm depron sheet foam. Yes, these are full fuse, there are a few designs that work better as a full fuse than a profile, and I've been experimenting with those. For the shuttle, I had to do some bending of the foam around formers, so I learned a bit doing that. In all my builds I try to trade off look with simplicity so that anyone could replicate these easily and have success.

I had to extend the rear end a bit to support the motor mount and still give the bottom view the shape I wanted, so the OMS and vertical tail are longer lengthwise than scale, and a few other concessions for simplicity of the build, the nose is pointier than I wanted, but I was too lazy to do a bunch of compound curves and slicing...and I'm not a great carver of solid blocks. The SSME nozzles are too small, I just used what nose cones I had laying around, and I'll swap them for some foam cup based versions when I run accross some. The OMS shrouds can be done many ways to approximate their shape, I don't know if I'm entirely happy with what I did, but for a first time they aren't terrible.

The full fuse, once you get them curved and glued, are extremely stiff and strong, sort of a stressed skin construction. I still use a profile center to take the thrust of the motor.

Thanks for the compliments.

If interested the plans link for everything I've done is at the top of my blog, except for the shuttle since I haven't confirmed the flight cg yet. Lots of build threads and pictures there are as well so you can see how they go together.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=118173


Frank


As usual, awesome models, Frank!

You know, something just occurred to me....in all the years I've built/flown delta gliders, I've NEVER done a Space Shuttle Orbiter!

It appears that yours is a full bodied craft and NOT your typical X-formed flat surfaced deal, right? Of course, you can bend Depron into a BIG body and save gobs of weight. Especially if it doesn't have to bear much flight stress, and your prop/E6 boosts aren't.

Can't wait to see a vid of the orbiter flying!
 
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Frank

I never flew an RC "anything" for that matter. When the boost glider reaches it's Apogee how long do you have to wait before the RC controller sends a signal and you take over the glider and fly it down. What's the range?
 
Very COOL. I grew up where they (not me, I flew rockets) flew alot of RC. This is the best of both worlds. again...VERY COOL!!! :clap:
 
RocketManDan, I'm flying them the entire time on RC. The xmitter is always on and the rx is always listening. They boost as they are and there is nothing that is ejected. I give small steering commands to keep them vertical on the way up(the boost is pretty mild for a rocket and it is pretty straight forward to control them) then I pitch over as the motor burns out to keep up air speed, and flip my gear switch on the xmitter which I pre-program to have some up trim to compensate for the nose heavy condition after burnout, then I just drive them back home.

Range on the receivers I use is at least a half a mile, you can't get more than 800 feet or so normally before they get pretty small and hard to see.

If you have low cloud cover, you can pitch over early and fly them around or do aerobatics under boost.

Frank


Frank

I never flew an RC "anything" for that matter. When the boost glider reaches it's Apogee how long do you have to wait before the RC controller sends a signal and you take over the glider and fly it down. What's the range?
 
Frank,
Those look great!. I am super jealous of your website content. I love all the models!

With your skills, you should be able to do a nice X-37/X-40. I haven't forgot about you on those control throws, I just haven't been out. The last time I had a CG issue which I believe I fixed. I'll keep you posted. I have not flown the second set of numbers. I changed all the mixing to explore more configurations.

I can't wait to see your Shuttle fly. Get some video for us!

Scott

Screen shot 2011-11-04 at 8.08.54 AM.png
 
Scott, I'm glad to hear from you, I'm starting to think about the X-37, but was waiting to hear from you on the tail only results before I start the build. No hurry, I need a break anyway:) I'ts pretty easy to add in the servos for the ailerons anyway, and hinge the surfaces so I can always add them after I start building, and it's only about 3/4 of an ounce in the end.

Frank


Frank,
Those look great!. I am super jealous of your website content. I love all the models!

With your skills, you should be able to do a nice X-37/X-40. I haven't forgot about you on those control throws, I just haven't been out. The last time I had a CG issue which I believe I fixed. I'll keep you posted. I have not flown the second set of numbers. I changed all the mixing to explore more configurations.

I can't wait to see your Shuttle fly. Get some video for us!

Scott
 
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Had two successful test flights today. CG was spot on. It was a bit windy so the boosts weren't as high as I'd hoped, I think on a calm day it will go higher. My boost trim was a bit off, so it wanted to pitch onto the back and my glide trim was too far up as a result as well, so it was a bit slow on the glide. I adjusted for the second flight and the wind still pushed it a bit toward the back, it was easy to just push over a bit and keep it straight. My daughter, who was doing the video, over-compensated a bit on the boost and it makes it look like the pitch toward the back was worse than it was. In all, very docile, easy nose down glide keeping speed up and just steer it where you wanted and flare at the end. I don't think rudder would do anything for you on this model.

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWEn_qoBItE
 
Here is a sneak peak of the X-37C(165% upscale of what Scott did) 41" long and 25" wingspan. Slightly less wing than the shuttle, but a bit longer.

Frank

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Here is how far I got today, sub-structure together, lightening holes and control mechanism in place with nose cap. Need to sheet the sides and top.

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Awesome! I double checked the CG measurement for you that I put in the spread sheet above. Its good. We did fly it on the aft number (13.6) but it got into a deep stall a few times. Pumping the controls eventually broke it most of the time. A few times it 'fell' all the way to the ground stalled. Its light enough it didn't hurt it. Favor the 14.3 position when you scale it up. I also flew it on the middle rates. It had plenty of throw. It was easy to over flare on landing but we wanted the throw. It may get reduced as I fly it more. You can do the math or set up a little test piece to get the angle for the larger one.

I realized I had added a decorative cover for the parachutes on the aft end and didn't re-adjust the CG. The stupid depron cover with a cardstock photo moved it aft a quarter inch! I added some ballast to get it back to where I was flying it without the cover.

I'm anxious to get out and fly it again. As soon as the weather cooperates and I get a competent pilot to go, I'll fly it some more and try to get video.

Scott
 
As always, great stuff Frank.

Question for you guys.
A lot of rocket gliders emply a pop pod to eject the motor and weight forward lead in the pop pod (as with Estes SR-X, my Wasatch/Gassaway SST that uses G/H motors) or they drop some ballast weight (as with George''s Bell X-1) to change from launch/boost CG to glide CG.

I suspect some of these delta wing projects manage to keep the spent motor inside during glide and that is either due to the spent fuel being enough to change the CG for glide, or, delta's are tolerant of wide CG range (like Kallend's Ladyhawk or the Delta Star?).

Any insight into this?
 
Here is how far I got today, sub-structure together, lightening holes and control mechanism in place with nose cap. Need to sheet the sides and top.

Very curious about the CL /thrustline of the motor location shown here..

I had considered just doing these kinds of projects as parasite gliders and not wory about the thrustline or changing CG...but this seems to work for you.
 
MaxQ, I've done about 15 different non pod-boom rc bg's for the 24mm aerotech motor, and I've never had to eject the motor, nose weight, or drop ballast. With the size that they are for their light weight, I can compensate with slight tail heavy at launch, and get enough up trim to compensate for glide, and still have plenty of throw for flare.

Even with profile planes that just have a normal wing and tail and no lifting surface from the fuse, it has still worked out fine.

I do run a lot of control throw, and normally use full flying surfaces which I think are more effective.

Of course carrying that weight has a glide penalty but I'm not trying to set any records, just trying to make cool looking models that are easy to fly and are simple. You could do any sort of ballast dropping arrangement but I think the weight added to contain/drop it would be adding some initial boost weight, and given the total fuse/wing area I don't know that you would gain a whole lot. Especially on the shuttle, it's just draggy, you can see in the video it doesn't have a terrible sink rate.

BTW, the book is called X-planes X-1 to X-45, covers everything "X" related.


Frank


Very curious about the CL /thrustline of the motor location shown here..

I had considered just doing these kinds of projects as parasite gliders and not wory about the thrustline or changing CG...but this seems to work for you.
 
Scott, did you try some flights with just using rudder/elevator and no aileron? I've got mine set up and are holding to button it up till I see what you say.

Frank


Awesome! I double checked the CG measurement for you that I put in the spread sheet above. Its good. We did fly it on the aft number (13.6) but it got into a deep stall a few times. Pumping the controls eventually broke it most of the time. A few times it 'fell' all the way to the ground stalled. Its light enough it didn't hurt it. Favor the 14.3 position when you scale it up. I also flew it on the middle rates. It had plenty of throw. It was easy to over flare on landing but we wanted the throw. It may get reduced as I fly it more. You can do the math or set up a little test piece to get the angle for the larger one.

I realized I had added a decorative cover for the parachutes on the aft end and didn't re-adjust the CG. The stupid depron cover with a cardstock photo moved it aft a quarter inch! I added some ballast to get it back to where I was flying it without the cover.

I'm anxious to get out and fly it again. As soon as the weather cooperates and I get a competent pilot to go, I'll fly it some more and try to get video.

Scott
 
Well, I did four test flights of the X-37 today. I had finished the fuse covers and just left the top of the nose with taped on pieces so I could adjust CG. I did a bunch of glide tests and had the CG pretty well bracketed.

We had a cold but relatively clear morning so I decided to do some test flights before I did the finish work.

Results were not great, and were a bit strange.

I needed to add about 2.5 ounces for CG so auw was round 14 ounces. A bit more than my shuttle.

I did add some 1.25" wide strips to the wing TE to help with CG and lift area as a last minute addition.

1)boost was ok, I pitched over early to keep out of the fog, I tried to counter roll and keep the nose up, it was starting to react, but then stalled and snapped suddenly and landed inverted, I repaired the one broken stab with tape. It did not seem to want to react to pitch control, as if it was extremely nose heavy, but then suddenly snapped.

2)Added another half ounce of nose weight, since it snapped, thought maybe it was still a bit tail heavy. Boost was kept vertical, control was ok during boost, clicked in up trim for glide, maintained about a 30 degree nose down attitude and pitch up didn't seem to have any effect, no damage, landed at the same 30 degree down angle.

3) Feeling maybe it was too nose heavy since not enough pitch control(I was running a lot of throw on both rates), removed some weight and moved battery back, boost was ok, but it was definitely tail heavy, not much pitch reaction, another snap but landing was relatively flat.

4)Moved battery back forward, boost was ok, once burnout happened, I kept the speed up, no up trim, kept nose down about 20 degrees, however flare never happened, as if pitch control was not happening, no damage but landed hard, nose down.

So, my construction is pretty sturdy, and the tail controls were very robust to take the abuse and not slip, the rolled fuse cover worked great and the airframe took the abuse with zero damage.

Based on the flight response, it appears that under vertical boost, control is ok, however once in a slower speed angled decent, that the fuse flares at the rear, or the wing is sort of blanking the tail and the pitch control is not happening. Then eventually I get so much throw it pitches up suddenly (sort of like a speed break effect)and stalles and snaps, or never really pitches up.

It's interesting as Scott has gotten his to glide and found that it was very pitch sensitive. I am not running ailerons, however I didn't seem to have any roll issues, the plane stayed relatively flat and the snaps seemed to be under mainly pitch command when they happened.

I'm going to set this one aside for a bit and see if some suggestions here or eureka moment happens and go back to it.
 
Well, I decided to cut off the rear end of the X-37, reprofile the nose, add a new former and tail at the rear, cut off the old wing, add a new one, and voila, Buran, very close to scale dimensions.

Test flew today, perfect boost, after needing just a push toward the nose after leaving the rod, up trim post boost was identical to my space shuttle and the glide was hands off except for rolling it to line up where I wanted and a gentle flare. This came out a 13 oz rtf with motor, a half an ounce lighter than my shuttle.

I just need to paint the bottom black and add the flag details...

Frank

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Bob, actually, a couple of months ago, I emailed Tom Beach, and I'm currently working on an article for the profile X-15 that is the easiest to build and would have the highest success rate. I think if that is well received, I could so something similar for one of the full fuse models.

Frank


Frank,

Maybe you should take one of these 3D models and write it up for Sport Rocketry magazine.

Bob
 
I put the little sickle and hammer and star on the flags, sort of a hack job with an exacto and trim monokote but there she is in all her glory:)

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Frank,
I don't know what your technical background is but I'll toss out a few ides. Flew mine more on Friday. We got about 20 more flights on it. Got some video but haven't got it from the guy that took it. Just sent him a note to try to get it ASAP. I'm sure he is hung over but I'll keep trying him today.

It doesn't like to fly slow. Pitch control goes away. This is probably a function of running a forward CG for stability. If the tail gets blanked out, aircraft usually pitch nose down. Due to pitching moments (for a normally balanced aircraft), that tail is always producing a down force so this is probably not happening. Also at these slow (flying) speeds, the air flows pretty well around the wing and is probably not blanking the tail until the stall actually occurs. I think if it gets too slow, particularly with an aft CG, the flow separates completely off the wing and DOES blank the tail completely. We had this happen several times. It just sunk straight to the ground from a few hundred feet with no control at all! On a few occasions, we went to an emergency high rate elevator and pumping the controls got it to break and start flying again. Aft CG.....

My CG range on the 1/10 scale X-40 is less than 1/4 inch from too nose heavy to too tail heavy. I learned this when I added the decorative cover to the rear. I have played with it and you can really tell the difference just moving it 1/4 inch!

It also needs speed to flare. We learned this with hundreds of flights on the little Guillows shuttle which works out to a very similar wing loading. A few clicks of elevator trim make all the difference in the world to a a nice approach vs one too slow for flare. We played with this on Friday on the X-40. If you come in at a typical model airplane approach speed, there is nothing for flare and it just flies into the ground. Like the Guillows shuttle, if you keep a steep approach or dive into the final approach, you get the elevator authority to flare but it also gets real pitch sensitive. Its VERY easy to over flare and get the violent pitch up you experienced. As the speed bleeds, you need the throw to get a smooth touchdown so you really can't reduce the total throw. It just takes a delicate touch. Four people have flown my X-40 and it has taken each one of them, including me, a few flights to get the knack of it. Once you get it, you can make good approaches and nice flares to touchdown.

We didn't play any more with Expo. I didn't try rudder but one of the other pilots said it didn't turn with it. I remember it did so I still need to get you a better answer here.

Hope some of this helps. I'll keep calling my buddy with the raw video and see if I can get my hands on it today.

Scott
 
That Buran looks awesome! Of course all your models do...

This could be a fun thread. I'll gather some more videos of shuttles and link to them here also.

Do you hand cut the tab slots or do you use a CNC machine?

Scott
 
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I hand cut everything. However I seem to have a pretty good knack now for just cutting them undersize and they press fit together nicely, most of the time.

Frank


That Buran looks awesome! Of course all your models do...

This could be a fun thread. I'll gather some more videos of shuttles and link to them here also.

Do you hand cut the tab slots or do you use a CNC machine?

Scott
 
Scott, It might be with this particular model with such a small CG range that It is too sensitive for the rocket pre-post burnout CG shift, usually on my models of this size the CG shift is about 1 1/8" from rear to forward CG positions. I could definitely tell when it was too aft CG, it just seemed with too forward CG that it never had pitch control once it was horizontal, initial boost pitch seemed ok.

Frank,



My CG range on the 1/10 scale X-40 is less than 1/4 inch from too nose heavy to too tail heavy. I learned this when I added the decorative cover to the rear. I have played with it and you can really tell the difference just moving it 1/4 inch!




Scott
 

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