White tip Estes Ignitors

[PhlAsh]

I regularly fly a Sunward Eruption that was given to No2son, who doesn't have time for rockets now. The rocket takes 4 18mm motors, so I bought 3 packs of Estes C6-7s the other night at HobbyTown USA. In opening the packs and transferring the contents to my field box, I noticed that the ignitors had white tips rather than black tips.

Today, we had a Cub Scout pack at our NAR Sport Launch and had numerous discontinuity and misfire issues. My Eruption flew fine on four of the white-tips, but my daughter's Sky Twister had discontinuity on the first, then lit properly on the second (white-tip) ignitor. It lawn-darted, but that was no fault of the ignitor.

Has anyone else had issues with the white-tip ignitors?
Did anyone see anything resembling a press release or announcement that Estes was going to change their ignitors?

 

[JumpJet]

Phil, the new igniters from Estes are called Starters. Their tips contain NO pyrogen so you must make sure the tip makes complete contact with the propellant grain. The good news is you can now order starters without paying a high hazemate fee. The bad news is you need to spend a little more time inserting the igniter to get proper ignition.


John Boren

 

[dave carver]

Sounds like they are canidates for "enhancing" with your favorite dip or other compound. I think my SuperGlue/Sparkler dust combo would work well

 

[Zeus-cat]

My club flew about 300 rockets a few weeks ago at the National Museum of the US Air Force's annual Spacefest. All of the rockets were flown on the white tip igniters. We had a few misfires, but nothing out of the ordinary for so many rockets handled by non-rocketeers. Our club loaded the igniters and motors, but we gave them back to the owners to carry out to the pad. We then placed the rockets on the pad and hooked them up to launch. We did not count the number of misfires, but I would estimate that we had no more than 10 misfires out of the 300 as misfires seemed rather rare.

Some good news, Estes has gone back to putting 4 igniter in each three pack of motors. We had gobs of extra igniters at the end of the day and a few of us grabbed most of the extras.

 

[Dean B]

I used a handful of the new "starters" a couple of weekends ago, just launching a few rockets on my own. My controller runs on 12 volts, and I noticed no difference between these and the old igniters. I wasn't happy when Estes announced they were dropping the pyrogen, but so far, so good. Note - I have not tried lighting a cluster with these.

 

[Daddyisabar]

I have used a mix on clusters. Clear on the new F15 and pyro on E12's and E9's and they all lit.

 

[shreadvector]

You did not have gobs of extra igniters.

You had gobs of extra starters.

Starters are not igniters.

Igniters are not starters.

My club flew about 300 rockets a few weeks ago at the National Museum of the US Air Force's annual Spacefest. All of the rockets were flown on the white tip igniters. We had a few misfires, but nothing out of the ordinary for so many rockets handled by non-rocketeers. Our club loaded the igniters and motors, but we gave them back to the owners to carry out to the pad. We then placed the rockets on the pad and hooked them up to launch. We did not count the number of misfires, but I would estimate that we had no more than 10 misfires out of the 300 as misfires seemed rather rare.

Some good news, Estes has gone back to putting 4 igniter in each three pack of motors. We had gobs of extra igniters at the end of the day and a few of us grabbed most of the extras.

 

[cwbullet]

? Nitrocellulose?

 

[chadrog]

You did not have gobs of extra igniters.

You had gobs of extra starters.

Starters are not igniters.

Igniters are not starters.

Shecterizzzzzed.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

You did not have gobs of extra igniters.

You had gobs of extra starters.

Starters are not igniters.

Igniters are not starters.

This is the kind of renaming that will never stick. The new Estes Starters are in a class of things known by rocketeers as "igniters," not "starters." They created a new kind of igniter, not a new class of things that the world outside their marketing department will ever refer to as a "starter." It would have made more sense to come up with a better marketing name for their new igniter (replace "Solar" and "Sonic") rather than try to create a new class of things that will not be accepted. Stupid move on their part.

 

[tightwad]

IIRC, when I started launching rockets waaaaaaay back in the 60's, the original Estes starters had just bare nichrome wire and you could make your own by wrapping the nichrome wire around a pencil. Is this corect?

I had more problems with batteries than I ever did starters.

 

[LW Bercini]

Shecterizzzzzed.

 

[BobH48]

This is the kind of renaming that will never stick. The new Estes Starters are in a class of things known by rocketeers as "igniters," not "starters." They created a new kind of igniter, not a new class of things that the world outside their marketing department will ever refer to as a "starter." It would have made more sense to come up with a better marketing name for their new igniter (replace "Solar" and "Sonic") rather than try to create a new class of things that will not be accepted. Stupid move on their part.

I think they did it because "igniters" have pyrogen and are regulated and "starters" have no pyrogen and are unregulated. At least that's the way I see it.

 

[Zeroignite]

So... what is the difference between a starter, an igniter, and initiator, an e-match... ?

I get the feeling a lot of it is wordplay to avoid red tape.

 

[cavecentral]

I get the feeling a lot of it is wordplay to avoid red tape.

+1

Igniters are regulated. Use non-regulated materials and call it something else.

 

[Zeroignite]

Is there a functional difference?

 

[cavecentral]

Is there a functional difference?

I doubt it unless you do something other than light rocket motors with them normally.

 

[Daddyisabar]

The first lovely little yeasty beasties I put in the wort are STARTERS! Be fruitful and multiply, eat all that sugar and poop away my little friends. Top fermentation, not bottom or core burners.

Now I have to use this lingo: "Hey der little Johnny, put dat der starter all the way up into dat shooter so we can blast off. Hopefully a usin' dat date coded E injun, it won't CATO!:blush:

Oh the absolute filth I must endure on this forum. My virgin, steely missile man, rocket scientist eyes! Pure scientific linguistic integrity lost to rampant comedians, liberal arts majors and fear of government explosives regulation. What is a savant to do?:sad:

Starter vs. Igniter, Motor vs. Engine, NO MORE! NO MORE!:gavel:

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

The first lovely little yeasty beasties I put in the wort are STARTERS! Be fruitful and multiply, eat all that sugar and poop away my little friends. Top fermentation, not bottom or core burners.

Now I have to use this lingo: "Hey der little Johnny, put dat der starter all the way up into dat shooter so we can blast off. Hopefully a usin' dat date coded E injun, it won't CATO!:blush:

Oh the absolute filth I must endure on this forum. My virgin, steely missile man, rocket scientist eyes! Pure scientific linguistic integrity lost to rampant comedians, liberal arts majors and fear of government explosives regulation. What is a savant to do?:sad:

Starter vs. Igniter, Motor vs. Engine, NO MORE! NO MORE!:gavel:

Use starters in motors, otherwise they cato.
Likewise, only use igniters in engines, lest they CATO.

Keep it straight and don't mix them up!

Safety is like semantics --- it never takes a holiday!

The rocket you save may be your own!

 

[hcmbanjo]

IIRC, when I started launching rockets waaaaaaay back in the 60's, the original Estes starters had just bare nichrome wire and you could make your own by wrapping the nichrome wire around a pencil. Is this corect?

Yep!
I used to wrap the nichrome around the extended end of a old style ball point pen tip. Wrap just below the tapered tip.
You can also wrap the wire around a straightened paper clip.

https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.mx/2014/02/making-old-school-igniters-part-1.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.mx/2014/02/making-old-school-igniters-part-2.html

 

[Daddyisabar]

Use starters in motors, otherwise they cato.
Likewise, only use igniters in engines, lest they CATO.

Keep it straight and don't mix them up!

Safety is like semantics --- it never takes a holiday!

The rocket you save may be your own!

I will try to remember that. But it won't help that the last rocket I launched suffered a CATO from an E9 with an igniter, along with blowing out the starter and not starting the F 15, resulting in an under powered flight on two E9-6 motors that did ignite, That caused a prang that the LCO and RSO had to run towards until they realized the two ejection charges had not started a fire. Thus leaving my safety semantics in tatters. Just one black tip igniter - white tip starter mixed up cluster mess.:sad:

 

[rocketguy101]

the new "starters" suck! i'm visiting my nephew and he wanted to get his kids started while "rocket uncle" was around. we went to Hobby Town and bought an Estes starter set with the 9V contoller, and a pack of A8-3 and B4-4 motors. This is my first time around the white tip igniters, but figured they should be OK...wrong! We were 0 for 5 attempts. The bridge wire gets hot, scorches the white stuff, but no- go. I made sure the igniter was in contact with the propellant, even used ols school " press-in with wadding" trick. Needless to say the kids were pretty unimpressed.

I told my nephew to take pics and contact Estes customer service. This is pretty sorry for someone totally new to the hobby, they might just chunk the whole thing in the trash.

 

[10fttall]

I haven't encountered any of these yet, but it seems this could be a problem unless you have a good insertion technique and a fresh set of batteries.

 

[cwbullet]

I launch a rocket with them this past weekend. No issues.

 

[rocketguy101]

the new "starters" suck! i'm visiting my nephew and he wanted to get his kids started while "rocket uncle" was around. we went to Hobby Town and bought an Estes starter set with the 9V contoller, and a pack of A8-3 and B4-4 motors. This is my first time around the white tip igniters, but figured they should be OK...wrong! We were 0 for 5 attempts. The bridge wire gets hot, scorches the white stuff, but no- go. I made sure the igniter was in contact with the propellant, even used ols school " press-in with wadding" trick. Needless to say the kids were pretty unimpressed.

I told my nephew to take pics and contact Estes customer service. This is pretty sorry for someone totally new to the hobby, they might just chunk the whole thing in the trash.

Update... my nephew was determined to get these in the air, so he dug around in the attic and found an old controller i built for him about 40 years ago . We hooked it up to his ATV battery and successfully launched 3 in a row, including one of the former "failed" igniters... rocket eating trees ended the fun.

Sooo, I think the new Estes controller does not have enough amps to fire white igniters. We were using a brand new 9v battery.

 

[shreadvector]

Update... my nephew was determined to get these in the air, so he dug around in the attic and found an old controller i built for him about 40 years ago . We hooked it up to his ATV battery and successfully launched 3 in a row, including one of the former "failed" igniters... rocket eating trees ended the fun.

Sooo, I think the new Estes controller does not have enough amps to fire white igniters. We were using a brand new 9v battery.

Was it an ALKALINE 9volt battery or a "super heavy duty" battery which is cheap garbage and unable to deliver required amps?

Instructions say to use alkaline. They make the bridge wire glow super red hot almost instantly.

 

[shreadvector]

And the white tipped things are not "igniters", they are "starters", just like the instructions say

 

[rocketguy101]

And the white tipped things are not "igniters", they are "starters", just like the instructions say

to me that is a marketing name, like "kleenex" is facial tissue.

...and it was an ALKALINE battery, brand new

 

[shreadvector]

If it was a new alkaline battery, then the tip bridgewire should have glowed red hot very quickly.

If the bridgewire did not glow red hot, then there is a problem. The most common problem is a battery that is not as fresh as you expected it to be. To perform "fault isolation", you simply use a voltmeter to test the battery. Free voltmeters are available from Harbor Freight (with coupon) and if the voltage on the battery is over 9 volts it is good and if it is 9.6 volts it is brand new and very fresh.

Here are my test results for voltage and amperage:
Battery tested at 9.2 volts. Voltage at the micro clips was 9.2 volts.
Continuity current: 12.5 mA
Launch current: 3.3 A dropping to 2.9 A after holding the button for 5 seconds. After a rest period it returned to 3.3 A.


"Igniter" has pyrotechnic pyrogen coating on the tip.

"Starter" has non-pyrotechnic coating on the tip.

to me that is a marketing name, like "kleenex" is facial tissue.

...and it was an ALKALINE battery, brand new

 

[XJChris]

ig·nit·er [ig-nahy-ter]
noun
1. a person or thing that ignites.

start·er [stahr-ter]
noun
1. a person or thing that starts.

It's all the same to me... In the context of our use, both words can be accurately applied to the devices we use to light the propellant in our rockets.