Which mid; power kit????

[rsbhunter]

New member, looking to get a step up in power. I like the " boat tail" fin style. I'm trying to stay in the 2.6" range diameter, but could go 3". I'm really ignorant to the best, or better maker of kits. I don't want a really long (6' + ) rocket either . 4' or 5'. We don't have a NAR or Tripoli launch site closer than 120 miles, and my launch site is probably around 1/2 mile Square. Please forgive me if I'm asking stupid questions, but I'm totally confused about the different options....single deploy, dual deploy, 29mm or 38mm. Paper or fiberglass tube .... Thanks to anybody that took the time to wade through my post!!! rsbhunter

 

[Scott_650]

First my recommendation - the Balsa Machining Service 3” School Rocket is a solid choice for moving up to bigger motors. It’s 29mm powered and light enough to be flyable on bigger 24mm with an adapter. BMS offers a bunch of options that could easily let you fly your School Rocket on your Level 1 certification flight.

https://www.balsamachining.com/

As far as recovery methods go, in my opinion, sticking with using the motor ejection charge to start is a good way to go until you’re comfortable with bigger rockets and APC propellant motors. After that a good first step towards more sophisticated recovery methods would be using a Jolly Logic Chute Release. The JLCR is a self-contained unit that holds the chute in a bundle with an elastic band then releases the band via a servo when the internal altimeter hits a certain, user set, value. After that, moving on to altimeter/flight computer controlled BP ejection charges (separate from the motor ejection charges) calls for more complex rockets using electronics bays - a separate section of tube that holds the altimeter/flight computer and the ejection charges. Rocketry electronics - computers, trackers, telemetry, photography/video etc - is almost a separate hobby in itself.

As far as fiberglass construction goes, until you’ve moved up to bigger, more powerful motors that only Level 1/2/3 holders can purchase, there’s no intrinsic reason to use fiberglass tubes/rings/fins - paper and wood rockets are plenty strong enough for any motor you can buy without a certification. But if you like working with composite materials and epoxies fiberglass is a good path to take. Some folks like the sort of in between material called Blue Tube - a phenolic composite that’s stronger than paper but easier to work with than fiberglass. Each has its place - including 3D printed components which some have experimented with and had great results.

For me the whole progression from low-power “model rockets” to the high-power stuff is more about taking time to learn what worked best for me and enjoying rockets at every level - even after acquiring my L1 certification I still fly way more LPR/MPR (with emphasis on LPR) than HPR rockets.

So my final bits of advice is to build and fly as many different types of rockets as your budget allows, buy a copy of Stine’s Handbook of Model Rocketry and a copy of Westerfield’s Make: High-Power Rockets: Construction and Certification for Thousands of Feet and Beyond and don’t be afraid to try new and different ways of building and flying until you find what works best for you.

 

[rsbhunter]

John, THANK YOU!! I always have a tendency to go overkill, and money for engines is a major concern. Being retired, I now have more time than money. I think right now I'll stick with 2.6" to 3"(?) Tube size and features that let me fly up to maybe a G engine. Your reply was very insightful and thank you for taking the time and effort to answer. I've learned from other forums, that the nicest people, are mostly the most knowledgeable. THANKS AGAIN ! rsbhunter

 

[Hobie1dog]

With a limit of G motors, there are lots of kits out there which use cardboard tubes with plywood fins. Most all of the companies have several rocket kits that meet your requirements.

 

[rsbhunter]

So far, my list of possibilities include the Wildman 2,6" competitor, Madcow DX3 2.6", Mac Performance Altair 3", LOC Nuke Pro Max , LOC Explorer, LOC Sempi fi, LOC Quicksilver. Yes, they are alot alike and different. Like most people, I want maximum flexibility. The 3" with 38mm or 54mm would probably be the best IF i ever had a chance to go for level 1 certifaction. A couple guys here are trying to get permission to use the launch site where Goddard launched his rockets, but it requires red tape and local govt approval, so it's not a given. I don't know what weight can be launched on G motors, so a couple of my choices will be ruled out just by that factor.Anyway, again, thanks for the help, there's alot of knowledgeable people on here with alot of experience....rsbhunter

 

[neil_w]

I don't know what weight can be launched on G motors

Don't guess. Use thrustcurve.org and/or OpenRocket and/or Rocksim to figure out what motors will work with which rockets.

 

[Art Upton]

Without a Waivered Launch site your rocket must weigh less then 53 Oz or 1500 grams with motor and ready to go.

It would make more flexibility to have a rocket you can fly at any launch, not just one with a FAA wavier.

 

[rsbhunter]

Art, thank you. That is just the information I needed. I didn't know what restrictions there are that limit weight, max altitude of flight, etc. This info means I can go back, get the weights of each componet, and stay within the limits with some cushion. If I can get some more info ? Is it less expensive to go with one time fire engines, or reloadable. I know the initial cost of engine case is high, but In the long run? Thanks again for all of the help from all, rsbhunter.

 

[neil_w]

Reloads are cheaper in the long run. Single-use are easier to get started with.

 

[BMcD]

<< Is it less expensive to go with one time fire engines, or reloadable.>>

That depends on whether you recover the casing. Each reload is less expensive than each single use motor, but it takes some number of flights to break even on the purchase of the casing, and if you lose the casing before you get that many flights you would have been better off with single use.

 

[dhbarr]

Art, thank you. That is just the information I needed. I didn't know what restrictions there are that limit weight, max altitude of flight, etc. This info means I can go back, get the weights of each componet, and stay within the limits with some cushion. If I can get some more info ? Is it less expensive to go with one time fire engines, or reloadable. I know the initial cost of engine case is high, but In the long run? Thanks again for all of the help from all, rsbhunter.

If you have a wide open flying field and lots of eyes, you're pretty likely to get your reloadable case back.

 

[rsbhunter]

You are all phenomenal ! Yes , where I fly is flat and open. I don't mind spending the money for a engine case. This brings me to more questions...I know that the engine cases are available in different lengths. And I've read that you can use spacers to reduce the number of fuel grains to be used. How do you base the number of grains the case holds? My first thought is get the longer (not necessarily longest) case, so that as experience is gained, the number of grains can be increased. I know weight, length come into play, so , say I go with a 29mm engine casing, is there a brand and size that would cover 75% of my needs in a mid power rocket ? Just generally speaking? Again, thanks. I know it's a multitude of questions, but there aren't many people here that fly...no clubs, or goups...rsbhunter

 

[Art Upton]

This is the Hobby Line case and setup that will handle E thru G motors in one case and handle 75% of mid power needs in 29mm:

https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/aerotech-rocketry/hardware/29mm/29/40-120-hardware.html


For an H motor, you would have to use the HPR RMS series of AT cases for adapters to work and not the Hobby Line of RMS motors.

H motor case and accessories
https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/aerotech-rocketry/hardware/29mm/29/180-hardware.html

G motor case and accessories
https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/aerotech-rocketry/hardware/29mm/29/120-hardware.html

F motor case
https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/aerotech-rocketry/hardware/29mm/29/60-hardware.html

Bigger F and smaller G case
https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/aerotech-rocketry/hardware/29mm/29/100-hardware.html

 

[rsbhunter]

You have all been an incredible help!!! I have all but decided on the LOC DX3 2.6" with 29mm mount. I can't see going 38mm, adding the weight of an adapter to 29mm, when until and if I become level 1 certified, I can't buy 38mm reloads anyway. Ok, what make and size motor casing, and, can I use a screw on engine retainer with the LOC DX3 ? I know some use/used the 2 screw and plate retainer? Might contact LOC and ask..? I am so appreciative of all of the advice and input of all of you. I can't wait to decide on and order a kit! Next will be launch pad (1010 rail) and launch controller!!! rsbhunter

 

[rsbhunter]

Quick question, this states at bottom " hpr motor casings will not work with mpr parts" or something like that..? More confusion! rsbhunter

 

[Art Upton]

Quick question, this states at bottom " hpr motor casings will not work with mpr parts" or something like that..? More confusion! rsbhunter

Correct, the "Hobby Line" motor parts will not work with the HPR RMS series.

 

[Art Upton]

Your best cost effective solution is the Hobby Line 40-120 complete motor. That one case and closures will hold E-G motors with no adapters needed, as each reload you buy has a liner spacer for grains smaller then G.

 

[Art Upton]

Here are the 40-120 Hobby Line reloads: https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/aerotech-rocketry/motors/29mm/29/40-120-reloads.html

 

[rsbhunter]

Thanks!!!!

 

[AcadiaRockets]

this?
https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/2-6-fiberglass/products/v-2-2-6
and this?
https://wildmanrocketry.com/products/rms-29-40-120

 

[rsbhunter]

I typed the wrong info before, I am thinking of buying the Madcow DX3 2.6" kit, and using the Aerotech 29mm engine retainer...What is the difference between the hobby reloads and the high power reloads? This rabbit hole is getting deeper and deeper....rsbhunter

 

[David_Stack]

You may want to read through this prior thread...

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/rms-40-120-different-from-all-other-cases.175407/

 

[rsbhunter]

David, thanks...I did read that thread....very informative!! I believe I will start with the 29/40-120 assembly, as it sounds as the best and most versatile option right now. IF down the road, high power becomes an option , new rocket, new motor time!!!!! You guy's really are incredible !! Thanks again , and I will take and use ANY advice, tips, warnings, etc anybody has. rsbhunter

 

[BMcD]

I typed the wrong info before, I am thinking of buying the Madcow DX3 2.6" kit, and using the Aerotech 29mm engine retainer...What is the difference between the hobby reloads and the high power reloads? This rabbit hole is getting deeper and deeper....rsbhunter

The Madcow DX-3 is a good kit, as is any similar LOC (or NCR, or Aerotech, or any of a number of other mfgs) kit.

The hobby reloads are generally easier to deal with, and there are more of them that fit that one case. The AT 29/40-120 "hobby line" case is probably the most popular reload case for midpower, with reloads available in E, F, and G flavors. The other cases are more specialized and have fewer reloads available per case. I would recommend starting with the 29/40-120.

 

[rsbhunter]

Yes, I checked with Madcow, they have the DX3 in stock, and the 29/40-120 engine combo seems to be the ticket!!!! Hoping to order the parts in the next day or so...rsbhunter

 

[rcktnut]

Yes, I checked with Madcow, they have the DX3 in stock, and the 29/40-120 engine combo seems to be the ticket!!!! Hoping to order the parts in the next day or so...rsbhunter

Good choice, you won't regret it!!

 

[Hobie1dog]

Yes, I checked with Madcow, they have the DX3 in stock, and the 29/40-120 engine combo seems to be the ticket!!!! Hoping to order the parts in the next day or so...rsbhunter

 

[Art Upton]

Quick question, this states at bottom " hpr motor casings will not work with mpr parts" or something like that..? More confusion! rsbhunter

Further clarification is the Adapters for the HPR RMS cases only work for motors 180 and larger, so only the true HPR cases, they will not work for the "HPR Style" cases for the G and lower motors in the HPR RMS line.

IE the 360 case with the adapters can run with motors 180 and up.

 

[smstachwick]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that mid-power is quite diverse in terms of construction. In addition to the kits from Madcow, LOC, Wildman etc. that are basically miniaturized high-power kits, plenty of Estes kits with mounts sized for a D12 can take composite Es and Fs. They also offer stuff designed specifically designed for black powder Es and Fs that can also take composites. Just go easy on the thrust. You can find other brands making these kinds of kits too, I think Apogee’s Dynastar brand looks pretty attractive.

These might be worth a look for your second or third rocket in this size range.

 

[BMcD]

<<quite diverse in terms of construction>>

That's what I love about MPR. I can build two rockets that look alike, one with Estes tubing and balsa fins that can be lifted safely by a D12 and one with heavy tubes and TTW plywood that will survive a G80.