Wallops launch in T-1hr!

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I don't think they intend to put any people at all in Cygnus capsules or on Antares rockets. I don't think these are intended to be man-rated.

Quite correct...

Antares is something of a kludge anyway... Russian engines (although they are quite high performance) on a liquid first stage with a solid propellant ATK second stage, and Cygnus is basically a disposable pressurized tin can for delivering stuff to ISS, designed to burn up on reentry into the atmosphere, not for recovery, unlike the SpaceX Dragon...

Basically Antares was the cheapest way possible for Orbital Sciences to get and fulfill a COTS contract for ISS resupply. It's very much a "one trick pony" and not really flexible or certainly not optimized at any rate for any other mission than delivering Cygnus to LEO. The solid propellant second stage is just about THE most inefficient way of delivering payload to orbit, but it has one benefit-- it's a "cheap and dirty" solution.

Think of it this way... SpaceX took the opportunity presented by the COTS competition and contracts to develop what is basically an updated version of the Saturn IB... (9 smallish first stage engines and single engine liquid upper stage, although of course Falcon 9 uses a kerosene powered upper stage, which is not anywhere near as efficient as the hydrogen powered upper stages used on Saturn I or IB, or Centaur hydrogen powered stages or the Delta Cryogenic Upper Stage... but even a kerosene powered upper stage is more efficient than a heavy, low ISP solid propellant upper stage). They also took the opportunity to develop a spacecraft that could not only serve as an unmanned cargo delivery module, but which could reenter and land, delivering cargo back down to Earth and even perhaps be reused.

Orbital, on the other hand, looked around for as much cheap "off the shelf" stuff they could get and cobble together into a COTS launch vehicle, hence the Russian engines (and IIRC large parts of the first stage are built in Europe and integrated in Russia) and the ATK solid propellant upper stage. Basically they chose to recreate the Jupiter or Juno launch vehicles from the late 50's-- converted Redstone or Thor liquid propellant first stages lofting cobbled together solid propellant upper stages capable of lofting the desired payloads, but not really flexible enough to grow into launching anything else in any other role... Inefficient, but "powerful enough" to get the job done... Similarly, they didn't develop a spacecraft that was adaptable to being "upgraded" into a manned spacecraft-- it's basically a recreation of the Progress freighter (only without the tanker capabilities for propellant transfer in orbit... just a pressurized can to deliver cargo... although Progress was basically a redesign of the Soyuz capsule, so it's actually a "derated derivative" of Soyuz). Upgrading the Cygnus into any sort of manned spacecraft would basically require essentially a complete redesign...

Antares and Cygnus are capable of fulfilling the COTS contract for which they were designed, and while it's possible they could be adapted or redesigned for other purposes, it's just as likely that once that contract is fulfilled, both will simply disappear and not "evolve" into any other kind of spacecraft or launch vehicle...

Later! OL JR :)
 

Interesting. Maybe Orbital can sell the engines beck to the Russians!

How many non-Anteres rockets are they going to need to buy to fly the Cygnus to ISS until they can get the replacement engines into the Antares in 2016?

I wonder what non-Antares rocket they will select. It's not going to happen, but wouldn't it be funny if Orbital contracted with SpaceX for those flights?
 
It's not going to happen, but wouldn't it be funny if Orbital contracted with SpaceX for those flights?

the article that I read said that orbital was negotiating with two American companies and one European company for launch services. That's just about all of them isn't it? The two American companies would have to be SpaceX and Boeing & Co., and the Europeans would have to be Arianespace. I don't think that there are any other players.
 
the article that I read said that orbital was negotiating with two American companies and one European company for launch services. That's just about all of them isn't it? The two American companies would have to be SpaceX and Boeing & Co., and the Europeans would have to be Arianespace. I don't think that there are any other players.

It would be very ironic to have to go to the competition to fulfill their contract.
 
It would be very ironic to have to go to the competition to fulfill their contract.

I don't think NASA would be happy with them using a SpaceX booster. One of the reasons for having two contractors was to have a backup in case of problems with one company's rockets.

-- Roger
 
**PRESS RELEASE**
November 6, 2014

Orbital Sciences Corporation (NYSE: ORB) is proud to announce a new allegiance in on-orbit lift capability. Working to secure near-term access to LEO (ISS) while simultaneously fast-tracking Antares booster redesign, Orbital is please to announce a new strategic partnership with W.M. Enterprises.

"So I got a call and my first thought was how did you get this number" said W.M. CEO T. Lehr on Wednesday. "Anyway I thought about it and I figured I've got something in the trailer that'll help. Then I thought HELL WHY NOT JUST FLY THE TRAILER."

The new interim booster will be known as CornField One. It is expected to fly only once, primarily due to the almost certain cancellation of insurance. A new launch site is being prepared in the Upper Midwest at Princeton Launch Control. "Tricky part will be finding a big enough rail" Mr. Lehr was quoted as saying.

As for the redesign of the Antares booster stage, W.M. will be taking the lead on this as well. "Why fly two Russian engines when you can fly 2,188 Canadian ones?" Mr. Lehr stated in the announcement. "My UPS guy will friggin' hate me, but I bet I get a Christmas card from Jeroen"

Mr. Lehr was last seen glassing four enormous fins to CornField One.
 
**PRESS RELEASE**
November 6, 2014

Orbital Sciences Corporation (NYSE: ORB) is proud to announce a new allegiance in on-orbit lift capability. Working to secure near-term access to LEO (ISS) while simultaneously fast-tracking Antares booster redesign, Orbital is please to announce a new strategic partnership with W.M. Enterprises.

"So I got a call and my first thought was how did you get this number" said W.M. CEO T. Lehr on Wednesday. "Anyway I thought about it and I figured I've got something in the trailer that'll help. Then I thought HELL WHY NOT JUST FLY THE TRAILER."

The new interim booster will be known as CornField One. It is expected to fly only once, primarily due to the almost certain cancellation of insurance. A new launch site is being prepared in the Upper Midwest at Princeton Launch Control. "Tricky part will be finding a big enough rail" Mr. Lehr was quoted as saying.

As for the redesign of the Antares booster stage, W.M. will be taking the lead on this as well. "Why fly two Russian engines when you can fly 2,188 Canadian ones?" Mr. Lehr stated in the announcement. "My UPS guy will friggin' hate me, but I bet I get a Christmas card from Jeroen"

Mr. Lehr was last seen glassing four enormous fins to CornField One.

Sounds like they are bringing in the experts!
 
I don't think NASA would be happy with them using a SpaceX booster. One of the reasons for having two contractors was to have a backup in case of problems with one company's rockets.

-- Roger

You might be right, but if SpaceX, Ariane, and ULA are the only choices (outside of the Chinese, Japanese, Russians, and Indian launchers) then they have to decide if they want to pay SpaceX or pay several time more for the same service. If they have a fixed budget, the bottom line could speak very loudly.
 
I don't think NASA would be happy with them using a SpaceX booster. One of the reasons for having two contractors was to have a backup in case of problems with one company's rockets.

-- Roger

Well, it sounds like that is exactly what has happened --- there has been a problem with one of the company's rockets. But I agree that Orbital hiring another company to fulfill Orbital's contract with NASA seems like something NASA would not really be happy about.

I have no idea what the details of these CRS contracts are like. I know the basic idea is to get away from NASA buying rockets and moving to buying a SERVICE instead. But you would think with the way these companies must qualify and compete to win the contracts, NASA is wanting them to provide the service in a very specific way, using specific equipment. It does not seem like you could just sub-contract out a part of the service. It would be like if you were getting your kitchen remodeled and you had two contractors bid on the project --- you pick one of them, and then he subcontracts out to the other one.

Also, if they do go with buying a launch from one of the other CRS competitors, how does that look for future business with NASA? If Orbital can have SpaceX do it for them, and Orbital still makes money, then it seems like orbital is just a middle-man in a way, and NASA would do better dealing direct with SpaceX.

This is going to be a really tricky thing for Orbital. It makes sense they want to make good on fulfilling their contract and delivering the flights they are contracted to deliver. But if the only way they can do it until they finish the changes to Antares is to buy a competitor's launch services, it does not look good.
 
I don't think NASA would be happy with them using a SpaceX booster. One of the reasons for having two contractors was to have a backup in case of problems with one company's rockets.

-- Roger

Which now appears to have been a very sound strategy. There has been a serious problem with one of the boosters, so I'm glad (and I hope they are too) that they have a viable backup option they already have a working relationship with. Sure they wanted two distinct working options, but in the absence of that this would appear to be a credit to planning.
 
So this popped up on my facebook feed as a memory.... it happened almost exactly a year ago.

12183975_480377205468411_3967156242416976872_o.jpg



I was fortunate enough to get to watch this launch from 2 miles away as the bird flies. From a plane :)
 
Hey Matt, how did you have that opportunity? Was the purpose of your flight to view the launch? That's so awesome...well, terrible for Orbital and Cygnus, but you know what I mean. Witnessing that in person must have been intense. I watched it live on my computer and it was intense!!
 
Civil Air Patrol. My Deputy Commander sent me an email that day and asked if I wanted to watch the rocket from a small plane. He had a few friends who were going to watch it and he let me have a seat in there.

TBH, I actually didn't realize it had blown up. That picture was taken through a blame telescope lens, so it looks way bigger than what I saw.
 
Civil Air Patrol. My Deputy Commander sent me an email that day and asked if I wanted to watch the rocket from a small plane. He had a few friends who were going to watch it and he let me have a seat in there.

TBH, I actually didn't realize it had blown up. That picture was taken through a blame telescope lens, so it looks way bigger than what I saw.


Aaaah. I recall you commenting about that now I think. Very cool experience!
 
Wow is that a super cool experience Matt...
I sure am sorry for the CATO but am glad for you...
This is something you will remember always...

Teddy
 
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