Virtual Book Club Thread: "Project Hail Mary" by Andy Weir (Spoilers)

[Marc_G]

Hi folks,

From the "What are you reading?" Thread I see that this seems to be a popular book here, which is no surprise given our general interest in science, space, and general nerdiness.

I wonder if there is interest to discuss the book, in a virtual book club manner? I've got some questions and observations after having finished the book. To those who haven't read it yet, I recommend doing so before reading this thread. There will definitely be spoilers. It's a fun book, with some interesting twists and turns, and I don't want the thread to ruin anything for you.


So, I'll start. Note that all of my observations are good-natured, recognize that this is a work of fiction, and not intended to bash an author that is climbing my "favorite author" charts.

So, after we get to the part where the basic nature of astrophage is revealed, essentially as a space-borne bacteria, they were described as having mitochondria. But, bacteria don't have mitochondria... or any other membrane bound organelles. You have to get to a much more complex eukaryotic organism before mitochondria show up... mitochondria are believed to be sort of a remnant of bacteria living symbiotically in other cells. Since this is a pretty basic thing that science writers would know I was hoping that it would lead to some sort of big reveal, but that never happened.

Next, while the project to send the Hail Mary to understand what was going on at Tau Ceti made sense, it didn't seem to me to be the only solution, and I'm surprised Straat and the scientific establishment didn't have other projects for remediation going on. Learning how to breed astrophage opens up essentially unlimited energy. Space-borne astrophage farms, enabled by initially breeding enough on Earth to bootstrap a thriving near-Earth space capability, would make energy extremely easy to come by. If the fundamental problem is a reduction in sunlight causing a cooling of the Earth, a very practical solution would be to farm astrophage in bulk in orbit (or, near-Earth space in constant sunlight), then send the astrophage down to earth and have continuous release of astrophage energy into heat at many points on earth. Basically, astrophage driven heat engines warming the atmosphere. The physics of doing this would be pretty basic, given the experiment that was done showing a tiny amount of astrophage melted the giant block of ... silicon or whatever. This could easily overcome the lack of heat from insolation. Alternatively, with lots of energy and essentially no worry about fuel mass getting in the way, it would be easy to build a giant reflector to add to the amount of light hitting the earth.

I've got other things but first I'll wait and see if there is interest in this discussion

 

[user 13]

I skipped past your post, this book is next on my kindle to read. I've been looking forward to it very much.
I enjoyed The Martian and Artimis VERY much.

I've been mired down re-reading Asimov's Foundation books in anticipation on the mini series coming soon.

 

[user 13]

I'm just over 1/2 way through.

This book seems to be missing something that his first 2 books had, having said that I can't put it down!

This book is much more science fiction than his previous 2, not a bad thing.

 

[BEC]

I've listened to the audiobook version three times now and bought a print copy just so I could see how some of what was done in the audiobook was written down. I loved it at least as much as I loved The Martian. (Because of all the bad reviews, I have not read/listened to Artemis—yet). The audiobook was splendid and I think was better done than either of the two audiobook versions of The Martian.

Farming astrophage in Earth orbit would require a source of carbon dioxide for them to consume before/as they breed so that they would stay there, rather than go to Venus and then back along the Petrova line to the sun.....

The book didn't say astrophage were bacteria.....so I was willing to accept that they had mitochondria. They clearly weren't any sort of terrestrial organism, at least until some were recovered from the Petrova line by the ArcLight probe.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

I'm not sure it would be possible for any intelligence that has evolved on a world with twice Earth's gravity to put anything into orbit using anything less than nuclear bombs for propulsion.
You simply can't get enough specific impulse from any chemical fuel, remember, they are working with the same elements as we are and thus the same fuel possibilities.
Then there's the fact that Erids atmosphere is so much denser that Earth's; would it even be possible to push something through that with the velocity necessary to achieve orbital speeds?

 

[Marc_G]

I have a big nit to pick but will wait until @mach7 finishes the book; it would give away a lot of the last act.

 

[Marc_G]

I'm not sure it would be possible for any intelligence that has evolved on a world with twice Earth's gravity to put anything into orbit using anything less than nuclear bombs for propulsion.
You simply can't get enough specific impulse from any chemical fuel, remember, they are working with the same elements as we are and thus the same fuel possibilities.
Then there's the fact that Erids atmosphere is so much denser that Earth's; would it even be possible to push something through that with the velocity necessary to achieve orbital speeds?

I would think a "rockoon" would be practical, using buoyancy to get a platform high enough to get over most of the atmosphere then taking it from there. Since radioactive elements are part and parsel Erid's ecosystem, I assumed they had nuclear rocket propulsion for lift as needed.
Ain't scifi grand?

 

[mjennings]

Finished a few weeks ago. Very fun. I really enjoyed the Martian and wanted to like Artemis (smart main character who always makes dumb decisions gets old after a while). Definitely more like Martian. The flash back revels worked really well. My favorite character is probably Demitri, I wished there were more of him. The two Astronauts who were in a relationship was funny,

 

[boomtube-mk2]

Then you have to ask the question; would a species living in virtual darkness and "Seeing" by sound ever come to realize that there is anything beyond their atmosphere?
They can't "See" the stars or the sun or their moon using sound, so how would they know to even look for such things.
It would be like a deep-ocean life form living around a Black-Smoker to glean the existence of the Grand Canyon and such.

 

[Marc_G]

OK, I'll put in my nit to pick, but anyone who hasn't read the last chapter or two should skip this post!

So, the protagonist Ryland Grace eventually heads home to save Earth. But he finds out that his portable tank of astrophage was eaten by contaminating taumoeba. Uhhh... whatever happened to conservation of energy? Even a tiny amount of astrophage popping puts out a HUGE bunch of heat (recall the experiments done on earth, out in the middle of the ocean, where they slagged a giant block of silicon or somesuch with small amounts of astrophage, leading to adoption of the astrophage-based drive system.

So, if a bit of taumoeba got into that tank of astrophage and was able to consume it, the Hail Mary would have gone up like a nova from energy release pretty early in the consumption phase. Ryland would be simply an expanding vapor cloud. And I believe this would have also been an issue earlier on... if I recall (it's getting dimmer over time) he had contamination in some fuel tanks earlier and needed to get replacements made.
To put it bluntly: where did all the energy go?

 

[user 13]

Ok, I just finished the book. Literally 10 min ago.

Time to digest the book a bit.

Lots of tiny discrepancies, but overall very well thought out.

As I said it's much more Science Fiction than the other books.

Speaking of the other books, Am I the only one who liked Artemis?

Yah, the Hail Mary would not be the only mitigation effort, A constellation of orbiting Astrophage Microwave power transmitters comes to mind, as does an Astrophage powered large asteroid to graze the atmosphere dumping heat. Maybe a huge solar mirror put in orbit or in one of the trojan points to shine more sun at earth.

The fact that both the primary and back up science astronaut would be in the same lab, let alone the same complex is gross negligence.


Weir is one of my favorite authors, and these are very small nit-picks!

A great read overall.

 

[Marc_G]

I enjoyed Artemis!

 

[BEC]

I guess I'll have to try Artemis, then. I have more Audible credits to spend.

The Eridians didn't have to use chemical rockets to get to orbit, they built a xenonite space elevator. As to how they were aware of other planets and such, not sure.

I agree, the question of where the energy went when taumoeba ate astrophage....you're right, that's a head scratcher. Kind of related, I didn't get how they got astrophage to give up their energy to make spin drives (and whatever the Eridians used for an astrophage-based drive) to work. Maybe I need to re-read/re-listen to Demitri and the spin drive test on the carrier.

 

[Marc_G]

I guess I'll have to try Artemis, then. I have more Audible credits to spend.

The Eridians didn't have to use chemical rockets to get to orbit, they built a xenonite space elevator. As to how they were aware of other planets and such, not sure.

I agree, the question of where the energy went when taumoeba ate astrophage....you're right, that's a head scratcher. Kind of related, I didn't get how they got astrophage to give up their energy to make spin drives (and whatever the Eridians used for an astrophage-based drive) to work. Maybe I need to re-read/re-listen to Demitri and the spin drive test on the carrier.

I think the spin drives use lasers to pop the astrophage, releasing the energy.

 

[user 13]

The whole astrophage deal is pure science fiction, unlike his other 2 books.

The "Martian" and "Artemis" seemed to me to be more "what if we did this" rather than pure Sci Fi.

I kind of treat astrophage as hyperdrive or warp drive in classic science fiction, necessary to the story but the reader has to suspend belief.

Weir does do a good job of explaining the science of astrophage, but let's face it, its basically magical.

Some issues I had.

1. Grace allows the 1st cylinder from Rocky's ship into his life support system. Really! I would quarantine that so fast! Who knows what it contains! The aliens might not be hostile, but bad things can happen by just taking it into you ship without some basic testing.

2. Communication. Yes Rocky is smart, Grace is smart, and math is universal, but 2 very different evolutionary paths led to humans and erids. How can we assume that thinking/ thought structure/ syntax would be so similar.

3. This is not so much about "Hail Mary" but I just finished reading Nivens "Starborn and Godsons" It seems Panspermia is making a comeback? At least in science fiction. Not to drift too far, but to date we have found zero evidence of life off of the earth. We have VERY limited data points, but so far science is not proving it.

4. If I were Grace, I would have fired off a beetle as soon as I found the existence of Taumeobas, Send what you know so that earth will at least know where to start. And there is the small point about discovering intelligent alien life.

Which leads me to point 5.

I guess there is no prime directive. Just give the entire knowledge of the human race to an alien race. I would bet that the law of unintended consequences would have a field day with that!
Luckily we don't share a common biome or the Eridians might invade! ;-)

Again, these are nitpicks of a VERY good read.

Thanks Andy Weir, keep the books coming! This begs for a sequel.

 

[Donnager]

When it is fiction, we all have to pull back our critical thinking, because some of the (technical) writing is nonsense.

That said, this book is pretty good for tech nerds....like me. Lots of "boots on the ground" type descriptions of small issues. The small tech issues seem reasonable and relevant, and for me, very entertaining. The phage/magic is OK, because it makes the story work.

Loved this book.

 

[PayLoad]

Is Sport Rocketry Dying?

 

[user 13]

Oh lord,

I just read that MGM has the film rights to the book, and Ryan Gosling will star in it.

I can't think of a worse choice.

 

[Marc_G]

Oh lord,

I just read that MGM has the film rights to the book, and Ryan Gosling will star in it.

I can't think of a worse choice.

Ryan Gosling as Ryland Grace? No way!
(He could be the guy in the Erid suit though )

 

[user 13]

Would that it were, but sadly ....no. He will be Grace.

Back to the book. I wonder what happened to Stratt. My guess is she fortold her own future and she did end up in jail.
From how the character is portrayed, she probably turned herself in for putting Grace on the mission without his consent.
After the Hail Mary was well on its way of course.

My guess is that if there is a sequel Dimitre will have a strong roll, possibly launching a rescue mission to tau ceti.

 

[Marc_G]

Love the idea of a rescue mission but probably time / distance too great.

And, to someone else's comment, I thought it was ridiculous how quickly Ryland picked up the Eridani spoken language. Ensign Hoshi, basically.

 

[mo2872]

Just read this on a whim a few weeks ago, picked it up at Sam's Club as a "oh, that's the guy that wrote The Martian!" impulse purchase. Enjoyed it, but like Marc G, the speed of picking up the Eridani lingo........made me go "hmmmm".....but, they say mathematically minded are often also musically inclined, so, feasible, I suppose.

I think my biggest beef with this book was that it wasn't as BELIEVABLE as The Martian, for lack of a better term for what I was feeling as I read Hail Mary. Which was generally a sense of, "I call BS.....and I'm not even that smart."

Going to have to give Artemis a try.

 

[user 13]

Love the idea of a rescue mission but probably time / distance too great.

And, to someone else's comment, I thought it was ridiculous how quickly Ryland picked up the Eridani spoken language. Ensign Hoshi, basically.

As for a rescue mission, I suppose Dimitre could figure out some way to harvest astrophage from Venus or breed it faster allowing for a rescue mission leaving but the timing would be critical. Either the rescue mission would have to leave within 3 months or it would have to boost at 2+Gs for it to make a difference.

Earth could send an unmanned fuel tank/supply ship to Tau Ceti with the message to sit tight, a rescue mission is coming.
They Probably could get 1-2 years of food/supplies on it and it could boost a probably 5-10Gs to cut the transit time down.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

The Eridians didn't have to use chemical rockets to get to orbit, they built a xenonite space elevator. As to how they were aware of other planets and such, not sure.

You can't build a "Space elevator" from the ground up, there first has to be something in geosynchronous orbit that "drops" the first "thread" down to the surface upon which everything else is built around and outwards to counterbalance the mass.

Arthur C. Clarke's "The Fountains of Paradise" describes this in detail.

 

[BEC]

Fair enough. I haven't studied how to do 'em though what you describe certainly makes sense.

A space elevator-like device was just the explanation in the book for what the Eridians had done to get off the planet...but it wasn't detailed.

 

[user 13]

You can't build a "Space elevator" from the ground up, there first has to be something in geosynchronous orbit that "drops" the first "thread" down to the surface upon which everything else is built around and outwards to counterbalance the mass.

Arthur C. Clarke's "The Fountains of Paradise" describes this in detail.

While the process that ACC presented in "The Fountains of Paradise" was from orbit down, I can think of no reason a space elevator could not be built from the ground up.

Granted I've only expended about 10 min thinking about it, and it would be much harder to build from the ground up.

Having xenonite makes it easier I would think. It goes from impossible to just improbable, and since PHM is basically a buddy book, Grace needs a buddy, so Rocky has to get to Tau Ceti.

Like astrophage I accept it for the sake of the story.

More troubling is where do the Eridians get their power from?
I cant imagine fossil fuels being available to "burn" (and in an ammonia atmosphere?)
We know they don't understand about radiation, so nuclear is out.
Solar, not with that atmosphere.
No rivers/oceans for hydro.
Maybe geo thermal or wind?

Any advanced, scientific society needs a power source to progress beyond the tribal/agricultural phase.
On earth is started with wind/water power but progressed to fossil fuels.

Thoughts?
Are my basic assumptions wrong?

 

[Marc_G]

Good points! But, maybe they do understand radiation, just not the kind that happens due to high speed transit through the not quite vacuum of space.

They have lots of radioactive elements handy so maybe they had nuclear reactors for a while.

And, interesting question, how do they pop their astrophage in their version of spin drives? I don't think this was addressed.

I forget... Did they not have a concept of EM radiation at all?

 

[user 13]

Thanks for the reminder on radiation, I had forgotten that it was the cosmic ray radiation that killed Rocky's crew.

I'd have to go back and read it again, but I thought Rocky's ship used IR heat to excite the astrophage, just not lasers.
And I believe they knew about EM radiation, but did not fully comprehend it. Rocky did use the light to shape screens to "see" what was on the Hail Mary's video screens.

 

[Charles_McG]

The technical handwave that keeps coming back to me is the super-adsorption/reflection of the astrophage. Going from perfectly black to perfectly white. That would be a pretty neat trick for terrestrial algae to pull off, too - except the ability to harvest all wavelengths isn't immediately obvious to me - the photons need enough energy to shift election, or split water to be bio-useful.

But the astrophage pulls a second hat-trick. It's cell wall is apparently also a metamaterial in the weak nuclear force (as well as electromagnetism) so it can capture neutrinos. That's a nifty idea. Now that I've written it out, I suppose it would be an electroweak metamaterial. But active at energy ranges where the weak force is separate from e-mag.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

While the process that ACC presented in "The Fountains of Paradise" was from orbit down, I can think of no reason a space elevator could not be built from the ground up.

A "Bean Stalk" isn't built from "orbit down" it is built along its entire length simultaneously centered around that first thread dropped from orbit.
It has to be done this way because it is the outward centripetal force of the outreaching mass of the Bean Stalk that counterbalance the force of gravity attempting to drag it down, much like a vertical suspension bridge.
Earth's GEO is apx. 35,800 kilometers altitude and with Erid's gravity being twice (More?) that of Earth's its GEO would be even farther out.
Nothing self-supporting, which is what you would have if you built entirely from the ground up could possibly accomplish that, no matter what magic material you built it from.

So the Eridians would have to have had space travel first and then they could build their Elevator.