US to be banned from the ISS?

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Russia does not launch any of our military satellites. WE launch our own. What the Russians do is fly our crew to the ISS.
 
This is old news... been discussed before...

Just Russian saber rattling, because they're PO'd about the Ukrainian sanctions mess...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Yeah-about that....ever bought a Russian car? Kitchen utensil made in Russia? T-shirts, flip flops, microwave or blender? Noooo. Take my word, they need the money! This is just noise like Luke says.
 
The Telegraph is a scandal-sheet UK tabloid, not credible as a news source.

Also, even the most pessimistic projections say the US will have an operational manned orbital vehicle well before 2020.

If there was suddenly an urgent reason we had to have one immediately, we could probably have one within six months.
 
The ISS is a waste of money, and I am pro space. We should defund it, and then deorbit it. See how the Russians like that- that is what we get for do business with communists.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
The USA is the Animal House of the ISS, that's why we got banned.
 
The ISS is a waste of money, and I am pro space. We should defund it, and then deorbit it. See how the Russians like that- that is what we get for do business with communists.

Great idea :clap: One question, because of the size of the ISS, I am sure some parts will survive re-entry and impact earth. I can think of several places that I would like to see it impact :wink:
 
The ISS is a waste of money, and I am pro space. We should defund it, and then deorbit it. See how the Russians like that- that is what we get for do business with communists.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

I couldn't agree more...

The ISS was another "make-work" program that has held the entire US space program hostage for the last 20-odd years, and will continue to do so until it finally either 1) experiences some sort of failure, forcing its abandonment or 2) FINALLY becomes so old, decrepit, and expensive to operate that it has FAR outlived its usefulness (at that point).

ISS was born essentially in 1992 in the wake of the Soviet collapse. When shuttle was originally approved in 1972, it was to be part of a program that would see the shuttle developed for the purpose of orbiting parts to build a space station, and then supporting that station through resupply and crew rotation... the secondary purpose of shuttle was to provide "cheap, frequent, reliable" cargo launch capabilities (for satellites). The shuttle got approved, the station was deferred "indefinitely", ie, not approved. NASA figured what the h3ll, build the shuttle and the station will naturally follow, so they weren't upset. Fast forward to 1986... The Soviets, after successfully flying a number of their "Salyut" space stations (and a couple "Almaz" military station IIRC), they took the next step and orbited their "Mir" space station, which coupled a Salyut core with a multiple docking "node" to which a number of secondary modules could be launched and attach to. The US had nothing like it-- we had flown a converted Saturn V third stage turned space station (Skylab) in 1973, then abandoned it in orbit during the stand-down while shuttle development was completed. Reagan, wanting the US to be seen as "leading" in space (and in his constant bid to "outcompete" the Soviets, ala "Star Wars" Strategic Defense Initiative (missile defense), arms buildup, etc.) directed NASA in a TV speech reminiscent of Kennedy's call for the nation to "send a man to the Moon in this decade and return him safely to the Earth", called for "Space Station Freedom" (SSF), a "permanently orbiting outpost", which Reagan called for NASA to complete "within a decade". Instead, NASA spent the next five years in constant redesign, Congressional wrangling over budget, descoping the SSF's science objectives and capabilities to meed the reduced budgets, and dealing with Congressional infighting because NASA descoped the science capabilities and objectives, due to Congress cutting the budget. SSF went through several incredibly expensive redesigns, over and over again, while the budget cutters fought, NASA descoped trying to fit the budget, and then was called to task for eliminating science capabilities of the station in their attempts to fit the reduced budgets. It became a vicious circle and at one point, SSF survived cancellation by ONE VOTE in Congress. It was 1992, and NOTHING had been built yet, even the designs weren't finalized, and NASA hadn't even started work on the real "nuts and bolts" of a space station, a "service module" that would be capable of providing the reboost propulsion and other services needed to keep a station resupplied, the atmosphere conditioned, provide power and stabilization, etc. NASA also didn't REALLY have much of a clue on how to do it, either-- they had NOTHING to adapt or fall back on, since the Apollo hardware that could have possibly been adapted for such purposes was LONG dead, and so basically it was ALL going to have to be new hardware and systems development, which meant it would be VERY expensive and take a LONG time...

This just so happened to coincide with the tumult of the Soviet collapse in the recent past (previous three years) and the worries over the Soviet nuclear stockpile possibly being proliferated to rising "rogue nations" seeking missile and nuclear technology, particularly in North Korea, Iran, and elsewhere. As the Soviet space program was nearing collapse due to lack of funding, highly skilled Russian space technicians and scientists were doing good just to put food on the table in Russia, while the possibility for them to emigrate to these "rogue states" offering sumptuous salaries and bonuses for experienced engineers, scientists, and technicians capable of helping their development of missile and nuclear weapons was very alluring, and very troubling to the West. So, a political decision was made in the Clinton-era State Department and Administration-- bring Russia in as a partner on SSF, and rename it "the INTERNATIONAL Space Station"... There were several reasons for doing so...

First, Russia needed the money, BADLY. "Buying" products and services from the Russian space program, keeping their engineers, scientists, and technicians gainfully employed building Russian and "international" space hardware, would serve Western interests by keeping them at home, rather than seeing them emigrate to rogue states to work on missiles and nuclear technology. It would also allow the Russians to "save face" in the wake of the Soviet collapse and the reduction of their once-proud space program to a shadow of its former self due to the funding crisis in Russia.

Two, it would "bypass" the need for the US to fund a massive development program to create the capabilities that would be needed for a viable "permanent" space station-- a 'service module' for the station capable of provide periodic reboost of the station, in-space propellant transfer capabilities, a "tanker" capability to bring up propellants from Earth to the station (presumably aboard shuttles) and other such services. The Soviets had developed, during the late 70's and early 80's, just such capabilities for their own Salyut station program, and had carried it over into the Mir program-- The Soviets had perfected fully automatic docking, in-space propellant transfer, and developed a fully-automated resupply spacecraft (Progress) based on their Soyuz design to act as a resupply vehicle and propellant tanker, capable of automatically docking to the station, transferring its propellant load to the Salyut or Mir station's propulsion system (itself adapted from the Soyuz service module propulsion systems), and providing pressurized cargo capability (for experiments, foodstuffs, water, and supplies) ferried up aboard it from Earth, and finally acting as a "trash dumpster" for waste materials to be placed into before it detached from the station and burned up in the atmosphere. Skylab, the only US station to that point, when it was converted from a third stage of Saturn V, had its oxygen tank converted into a sort of "septic tank" on the bottom of the station, into which waste materials were dumped via a waste airlock installed in the bulkhead between the unpressurized oxygen tank (acting as the 'septic tank' of the station) and the hydrogen tank, which was the pressurized, converted main living area of the station. Also, Skylab launched with all the supplies and materials necessary for the planned three crew visits, with no provision made for regular resupply, and of course the oxygen tank "septic tank" was not a viable solution for "permanent" waste disposal either, since it would inevitably eventually fill up if more missions flew to it. The Soviets had muddled through on their first Salyut stations by making the entire station expendable, only serving for a couple or three missions before being replaced. It was soon apparent that better use could be made of launches and equipment by resupplying and reboosting existing station modules rather than orbiting new ones, and hence the "Progress" tanker/resupply/trash vehicle mode of operations was created.

SO, the Clinton Administration ordered NASA to cooperate with the Russians and bring them aboard as "international partners". It also negotiated an agreement to "rent" space aboard the aging Mir space station in a cooperative agreement with the Russian space program by having a number of shuttles "visit" the Mir complex, depositing a US astronaut aboard it for "research" and to provide "valuable experience" in long duration space operations which the US had pretty much abandoned at the end of the Skylab program in the early 70's. It was make-work, and there were plenty of "old hands" around NASA that realized as much-- they'd had their experience with working with the Russians and the secretive and Byzantine Soviet space program during the run-up to the 1975 "Apollo-Soyuz Test Project" "handshake in space" program that saw the last Apollo launched to link up with a Soviet Soyuz in orbit for a few days of "joint operations" and PR... a program which was hoped at the time would lead to follow-up "cooperative" ventures, but which coincided with the cooling of "détente" between the superpowers and thus became a one-off event. NASA had mainly learned from their experience with the Soviet program that it was technologically inferior and safety was secondary to objectives, and their program hierarchy was arcane and needlessly complex, and vague. Its operational ideology was almost completely reversed from US operational concerns and methodologies as well. Folks who had invented the "Apollo way" of operating the US program were horrified at the risks and indifference to safety issues prevalent in the Soviet program, and some were pretty vocal about their skepticism of the "value" of any experience US astronauts might gain on Mir, or the value of cooperation with the Russians at all. They were swept aside and/or forced out (most notably, legendary Apollo flight director Gene Kranz, among many others). In the end, no US astronauts died aboard Mir, though there were some pretty close calls, and the Russian methods and attitudes clashed with some of the US astronauts markedly, causing a lot of friction and difficulties, which were well covered up by both sides for the sake of PR. The shuttle also delivered tons of water to Mir, which was in more or less constant short supply, as a waste product of the shuttle's fuel cells generating electricity for the orbiter (Progress flights brought up only enough water for basic needs-- the rest was dedicated to propellants and resupply cargo).

NASA "paid" the Russians to complete work on what became known as the "Zarya" and "Zvezda" modules for ISS-- these were essentially the "Mir 2" core modules, which were intended to have been replacements for Mir when it grew to old and feeble to continue operating, but which had remained unfinished since the Soviet collapse. Now they'd be finished with US monetary assistance to serve as the "service modules" of ISS, just as they would have for Mir 2. At about the same time, the USAF was proceeding with a program to retire and replace Titan IV with a new "Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle" (EELV), competing out a pair of new rockets from US aerospace contractors for a redundant national security payload launch capability. Titan IV had proven to be about as expensive as the manned shuttle on a per-launch basis, and that was already TOO high, and at any rate was only a single system, so if any serious accident led to a stand-down of the program (similar to those experienced by the shuttle in the wake of the Challenger and Columbia disasters) the USAF would have been hard pressed to launch vital reconnaissance assets... hence the need for a pair of redundant EELV's. This coincided with the "opening" of the Russian aerospace sector to international trade, and thus the proposal for a successor to Atlas, using kerosene propellant, ended up buying Russian RD-180 engines, since the US had virtually abandoned large kerosene engine research in the early 70's, with the shuttle decision, instead choosing large solid booster rockets for raw-thrust early-flight boost capabilities requiring only relatively low-ISP performance, but capable of delivering extremely high thrust for boost off the pad.

TBC... OL JR :)
 
Hey it's fun to watch flying overhead....it's got that going for it.
 
Continued...

ISS has been a "dog and pony show" from then on... US science objectives, both on SSF and its successor ISS, have been continually downsized from the very beginning. In the wake of the Columbia disaster and the decision to retire the shuttles at the end of the ISS construction phase (which began in 1998 with the launch of the Russian Zarya module aboard Proton and the linking up of the US "Unity" node launched by Shuttle, and was deemed "complete" 13 years later with the last shuttle flight in 2011, after it became clear the shuttle program limitations and funding problems would leave a number of planned-for modules "in the parking lot"). The SSF and ISS were designed around the shuttle's capabilities, with the intention of the shuttle being the (sole) launch, construction, crew rotation, and resupply vehicle. With the Russian agreement to come on board the ISS program, they brought their Progress resupply vehicle capabilities in with their part of the program. Shuttle was to be the main construction, crew rotation, and resupply capability for the US/IP (international partners, in this case the Japanese and Europeans, specifically) part of the program. In the wake of Columbia, however, the additional services of resupply vehicles from the EU and Japan, the ATV and HTV respectively, launching aboard their Ariane V and H-IIA vehicles, respectively, became extremely important to the continuation of the ISS, with shuttle's lifetime dwindling and being mostly dedicated to finishing construction of ISS. The Russian Progress capabilities also became far more important, as did the Russian crew launch and return capabilities-- the US efforts to develop a "crew return vehicle" (CRV) "lifeboat" for ISS had been canceled years before, and nothing had really replaced it. To provide additional supply services in the wind-down and subsequent to the retirement of shuttle, NASA got approval for the COTS program, which helped bootstrap efforts for commercial space providers to provide an independent COMMERCIAL resupply capability outside NASA, which has come down to Orbital Science Corporation's Antares rocket and Cygnus resupply vehicle, and the SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket and Dragon capsule.

Originally, the US planned to have a minimal stand-down post shuttle-retirement until it began launching its own astronaut crews to ISS aboard the Orion spacecraft, launched by the Ares I rocket. As the Constellation Program jumped off the tracks and development of Ares I became more and more problematical and expensive and the schedule overruns became obvious, and Orion became mired in much the same difficulties (many of which were induced by problems with Ares I), and the costs of Orion flights ballooned to the point it was obvious that it would be too expensive for crew rotation and "lifeboat" capabilities for ISS, and with the subsequent cancellation of the Constellation Program, ISS crew rotation fell "indefinitely" upon the shoulders of the Russian partners and their Soyuz vehicles. The US began a halfhearted (and perpetually underfunded by Congress, who wants to reward their political pork-barrel lobbying big-aerospace contractor buddies, not upstarts like SpaceX and others) program to develop commercial crew capabilities for launching astronauts to ISS, much like the commercial resupply contracts. These efforts are still ongoing-- neither NASA nor their masters in Congress seem to put much priority on the program, or else they'd have funded the thing at the higher levels the Administration has proposed funding it at pretty much all along. Constellation, before it was canceled, had originally proposed having the capability to send astronauts aboard Orion to ISS by 2014. By the time it was canceled in 2010, that had slipped to 2017 at the earliest, more likely 2018. Currently, Commercial Crew program plans state they should be able to send astronauts to ISS by 2017. That remains to be seen however... even the COTS program experienced delays in the beginnings of operations past the original planned-for dates.

The COTS program itself isn't immune from Russian involvement, either. While the SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket is powered by SpaceX's US designed and built Merlin rocket engines, the Orbital Sciences (OSC) Antares rocket launching their Cygnus spacecraft is powered by refurbished, modernized versions of the Soviet NK-33 kerosene rocket engines originally built for their massive failed N-1 moon rocket program in the late 60's/early 70's. Rights to these engines were bought by OSC and Aerojet, which will be producing the engines for OSC as renamed "AJ-500" engines, with a possible upgrade engine planned as the "AJ-1000" having higher thrust. The OSC rocket is also a "one trick pony" in that it's designed very much around meeting the specific requirements of the COTS contract, and ill-suited to other uses... it uses a pair of the NK-33 derivative kerosene engines on the first stage, a solid propellant upper stage built by ATK (which is highly inefficient from a performance standpoint-- solid propellants with their extreme weight, heavy casings (dry weight), and low-specific impulse propellants are exactly the opposite of what you want for optimized performance of a rocket upper stage-- minimum dry weight possible and highest ISP performance from the propellants possible, which is why hydrogen is the propellant of choice for upper stages). Also, the Cygnus is essentially a pressurized tin-can, designed to deliver cargo to the station and then burn up in the atmosphere, where the SpaceX Dragon is designed to reenter and be recovered and eventually for reuse. Dragon and Soyuz are the ONLY vehicles capable of returning anything from ISS to the ground, and space is extremely limited on Soyuz due to crew requirements. Everything else is designed to burn up upon reentry (Cygnus, Progress, ATV, and HTV).

ISS originally was planned to have a crew of 7 astronauts working on the station, with periodic visits by shuttles expanding that to 14 during the shuttle's roughly 2 week stay at the station. With the cancellation of the US CRV "lifeboat" for ISS, and subsequent retirement of shuttle, the ISS crew capability has dwindled to three. It was hoped that Orion would allow for 6 astronauts on ISS, staying docked to ISS to provide a lifeboat capability, but Orion's problems and expense have ruled it out of the ISS program altogether. Most of the astronaut's time aboard ISS now is spent maintaining the station and servicing its systems, with maybe a couple or three hours a day actually dedicated to scientific experimentation, and most of that is tending experiments that, for the most part, COULD have been designed to operate remotely or autonomously on unmanned spacecraft. Very little research is actually conducted that absolutely REQUIRES the presence or participation of humans in-situ, of all the research that is conducted aboard ISS. Much of the research being conducted is specifically aimed at "health effects of long-term human exposure to the microgravity space environment" and such, which the Russians have been conducting more or less continuously since the early 1970's... (Of course the US space medical establishment within NASA has pretty much totally dismissed the value of this Soviet "research" due to the antiquated and Byzantine and haphazard way in which the Soviets and Russians have conducted their medical research; their materials and methods usually "contaminated the data" to the point of rendering the data and findings worthless to US scientific interests and purposes).

The ISS program seems now, just like shuttle before it, to have become the "main driver" of the US space program, and its "main reason for existence". NASA's former Administrator during the Constellation Program, Mike Griffin, had planned for NASA to end its involvement in the ISS program after 2016, in order to free up funding currently tied up sustaining the ISS program for development of the Ares V and other "exploration systems" that would be required for the return to the "Moon, Mars, and Beyond" called for in Bush II's VSE... The outcry from the "international partners" (IP's) at these US "unilateral" plans to pull out of ISS in the mid-teens caused Congress to shoot down those plans, rendering the Constellation Program completely untenable anyway. The US space program has now become "trapped" in the ISS program-- it's become the "main reason for existence" of the entire US manned space program-- much like the shuttle was before it. ISS was designed around shuttle, in fact to REQUIRE the shuttle to launch its modules and help construct it at the very least, in large part to give the shuttle program "something to do" and require it be maintained to perform its essential functions for ISS. The two became entwined and co-dependent. Just as NASA became totally dependent on keeping the shuttle going, to keep the workforce and contractors and others with a vested interest in the 'status quo' happy, even though the shuttle had basically outlived its usefulness and should have been replaced (although designing ISS to REQUIRE shuttle for construction gave it a "requirement" to exist throughout the rest of the 90's and the first decade of the 2000's, and would have continued to do so until at least 2020, per the NASA plans in place before Columbia essentially "forced" Shuttle's retirement in 2011). In the same manner, ISS now holds the US program hostage... there are too many "vested interests" in the US, and especially in the IP's programs, all of which want the ISS to continue to "keep the gravy train rolling" and "get the most out of their 'investment' in ISS" to allow it to be shut down. Likewise, the US has NEVER had the money to develop a new "replacement" program for an existing one (properly) while conducting operations of the existing program... Shuttle wasn't begun in earnest until the Apollo missions were largely paid for and complete, and the hardware bought and paid for and put into storage for the remaining Apollo missions (the Skylab flights and ASTP), and during the Shuttle era a LONG chain of canceled programs designed to replace or augment Shuttle litter the roadsides of its history... So it is with ISS... Just as we could not afford to design and build a replacement for the Shuttle so long as shuttle was flying (Ares I threw another log onto that fire), neither can we afford to "do" anything in space *BUT* ISS so long as the ISS program is still operating. That was a fundamental requirement of the Constellation "pay as you go" program, and it still remains so today. ISS absorbs about $300 million a year in operations (IIRC-- been awhile since I read that) and that's money that's NOT available for "exploration" missions, hardware or module development, rocket stage development, etc., all of which is REQUIRED before we can do any MEANINGFUL exploration missions beyond either 1) test flights or 2) ridiculous stunts (like this 'asteroid retrieval mission' nonsense).

It's just that simple. We can EITHER have an exploration program, or an ISS program-- NOT BOTH. Because of the vested interests here and abroad, ISS is likely to become just like shuttle-- the "program du jour", for all intents, *permanently*, until its abandonment is *FORCED* by outside influences... Remember the Russians continued Mir far beyond the point where it really made any sense to do so, because of "national pride". ISS has soaked up well over $100 billion dollars in US space program funding since its inception... likely to be well over $200 billion before it ends. That "sunk cost" argument will likely keep it alive and going well beyond the point where it is actually of ANY scientific or experiential value to the US OR the IP's, simply due to "program inertia", again, just like shuttle. Had Columbia not disintegrated over Texas on reentry in early 2003, and had no other shuttle been lost subsequently to that (highly likely one would have-- it was just a matter of time), NASA would STILL be operating shuttles with NO plans to retire them or replace them til at least 2020... those were the EXISTING plans prior to the Columbia disaster... Similarly, we see the same pattern being repeated again and again with ISS... first ISS was to be retired in 2020, recently it was extended to 2024, and serious talk is already afoot to continue it to 2028-- at least, until this recent Russian proclamations of their intent to "pull out of ISS" in 2020...

Actually, that's probably the BEST thing that could happen. By 2020, ISS will have been in orbit, at least the Russian modules and "Unity", for *TWENTY-TWO YEARS*... Mir was first launched in 1986, and was falling apart by 2000 when it was deorbited-- a mere FOURTEEN YEARS after it was launched. Granted, "lessons learned" were applied and improvements made on Zarya and Zvezda, but still NOTHING LASTS FOREVER. Basically, by the time of the Shuttle/Mir program, the Mir was experiencing so many maintenance problems and breakdowns that MOST ALL of the Russian crew's time was spent just keeping the thing operational and habitable, and somewhat safe. Even the US "guest astronauts" were called upon to assist in maintenance operations, which caused considerable friction on the part of some of the US astronauts, who felt they were there for their OWN research programs, not to help the Russians keep the thing from falling apart. At SOME POINT, ISS is going to become the EXACT SAME WAY-- systems will grow old, start to fade, failures will become more commonplace and more severe, repairs required more frequently and become more complex, and habitability and safety will erode as capabilities and time dwindle. Most of the time of the three-astronaut crew will be taken up just keeping the station operable and somewhat safe and habitable-- precious little to virtually NO time will remain for conducting experiments or research beyond "man-tended" projects operating mostly autonomously, or requiring only infrequent periodic observations or participation. Heck, there's precious little time for research as it is-- IIRC it stands somewhere at about 15% of the actual work time on the station currently, and that's WITHOUT age-related station system failures and issues to deal with!

The other issue is, basically, the Russian proclamations are right... If the Russians pulled out of the ISS program tomorrow, and declared their intention to 'jettison' the remaining ISS "IP" modules (including the US modules) from "their" space station, they could, and we couldn't really do ANYTHING about it. The Russian modules CAN operate independently, and provide a core capability for a new space station to be constructed from additional modules launched by the Russians, Chinese, Europeans, Japanese, India, etc... if they so chose. Heck I could see negotiations with the Europeans and Japanese to keep their modules "attached" the "new Russian station" and merely jettison the US components, and the Russians offering a deal to the Chinese to dock their "Tiangong" ("Heavenly Palace") space station (or a successor to it) to the Russian modules to form an "ISS 2", freezing the US out... Heck even invite India to send up a module-- they've stated their intention to pursue manned spaceflight. Our modules are COMPETELY RELIANT upon the Russian modules for essential services-- the reverse is NOT true... the Russian modules CAN operate independently-- ours CANNOT. The US would have NO choice except abandon our US modules in orbit, left to tumble without power and eventually fall into an uncontrolled reentry and burn up somewhere on Earth... We cannot even maneuver or stabilize our modules without the Russian modules. We would have to power down our systems (since we rely on the station being stable to point the solar arrays at the Sun) and shut them down (which both the US and Russia maintain independent control over the systems in their modules, and we wouldn't simply "abandon them to the Russians" if they refused to launch any more of our astronauts... Perhaps our modules could be put in some sort of "deep hibernation" mode and then "cut loose" from ISS, and with a crash program, some sort of capability developed to create a "service module" for our part of ISS to dock with it and keep it alive until we could reconstitute it into a US station, or even an "international station" if the Europeans and Japanese wanted to continue their cooperation. It's basically a longshot, though... NASA doesn't do ANYTHING quickly anymore, and within months or possibly even weeks, the US segments of the station could prove irretrievably damaged due to cold, lack of power, lack of essential services, or tumbling out of control in an increasingly unstable and lowering orbit due to air drag, culminating in uncontrolled reentry.

THAT is the sad state we find ourselves in and will continue to find ourselves hostage to... what's that old saying?? "A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with"... Very fitting...

Personally, I hope the Russians DO pull out of ISS in 2020... by that point, ISS will be 22 years old. Any real scientific contribution it will have made will have been realized by that point, if it ever will at all. It will be getting "long in the tooth" by that point, and if it's continued to 2024 or 2028 or 2030, at that point it will be either 26, 30, or 32 years old, respectively, and will be SURELY suffering the effects of old age ravaging its systems, and will be LONG past any point of real scientific contribution WORTH THE EXPENSE OF MAINTAINING IT... it will also become more expensive to maintain as these inevitable failures mount, hastening the day it made more sense to decommission it and deorbit it than to continue operating it, though without some outside influence, it will continue FAR, FAR beyond that point! In all likelihood, it will require some *outside* event to FORCE ISS to be decommissioned and deorbited... either getting holed by space junk, some sort of serious accident or serious system failure, or some serious political falling-out causing the withdrawal of the Russians or the US... It's unlikely that, barring any of those situations, that ISS will end "of it's own accord"-- Remember that even though the Russians were already hip-deep in ISS, they STILL argued to keep Mir alive and in orbit, even proposing moving it to ISS and joining it up with ISS... that national pride thing at work... even though Mir was FAR beyond the point of being "scientifically valuable" in terms of the maintenance costs to sustain the station and the program... (Plus, the US INSISTED that the Russians deorbit Mir; they saw it as a strong distraction and "money sink" from the ISS program (money which at that point was largely flowing from the US into the Russian space program to fund their "contribution" to the ISS-- the Russians couldn't even meet their own "obligations" to ISS development and deployment, instead relying on US cash infusions to fund their own funding shortfalls while they still spent part of the precious little money they did have on the aging Mir... The US also felt at that point that Mir would be more of a liability to ISS than an asset, given its safety and maintenance issues, and adding another bunch of Russian modules would make it more of "Russian" space station, than an "International" one, and make the US contribution look smaller, and argue for more "Russian control" over the station, something the US didn't want to happen...)

TBC... OL JR :)
 
ISS was a grand experiment, and it's got some life left to it, and for now, we should continue with it... but by 2020, when *supposedly* we'll have SLS and Orion test-flown and ready to do other things, by which point we should have commercial crew capabilities (if all holds well as presently planned) to conduct independent US orbital operations (whatever they may be) I think ISS SHOULD be retired and deorbited... let subsequent "mini-stations" orbited by operations like SpaceX or Bigelow, either as commercial enterprises or even as contract customers of NASA (say for a Gateway Station at a LaGrange Point behind the Moon, or in lunar orbit, or even a follow-on research station in the post-ISS era, to continue medical research, artificial gravity, or as a proving grounds for potential Mars mission hardware or systems) be the extent of US involvement in space stations... Let NASA do EXPLORATION, which it should have been doing ANYWAY....

Later! OL JR :)
 
The Telegraph is a scandal-sheet UK tabloid, not credible as a news source.

Actually, the Telegraph is one of the longest established most respected Broadsheet newspapers in the UK, ranking alongside The Times and the Guardian. It is as far from a tabloid as it is possible to get. If you're going to try to discredit sources, it pays to check your facts first...
 
It's built to look Fragile for a good Reason, it represents a Shameful and Fragile Race of Beings.
 
We could pull our components out of the station we paid for, and ignore it. Send no more money for any support for it. We should not do anything involving technology transfer with the Russians or Chinese. Simple.

NASA is too much of a political foot ball. Perhaps it's time has come too. No real vision for exploration, or at least know where near the budget to pull it off.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Actually, the Telegraph is one of the longest established most respected Broadsheet newspapers in the UK, ranking alongside The Times and the Guardian. It is as far from a tabloid as it is possible to get. If you're going to try to discredit sources, it pays to check your facts first...


Well, if we want to be really brutal about it, **no** mass media sources in the U.S. or U.K. are truly "credible." You have to read all of them with the understanding it's all agenda-driven BS dictated by corporate suits in a beautiful office somewhere.
 
We could pull our components out of the station we paid for, and ignore it. Send no more money for any support for it. We should not do anything involving technology transfer with the Russians or Chinese. Simple.

NASA is too much of a political foot ball. Perhaps it's time has come too. No real vision for exploration, or at least know where near the budget to pull it off.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

This is true... we could do that... it's not so much about "technology transfer" with the Russians... as I said, there's definitely parts of ISS the Russkies don't get to see "behind the panels" and there's certainly parts of their hardware up there we don't get to see either... that's part of the reason we have duplicate control rooms for ISS in both Russia and the US at JSC... redundant capability, sure, but part of it is, we maintain control over our part, and they maintain control over theirs...

We could certainly pull out of the program, and that would be that... h3ll if we weren't paying for it, there'd be no ISS... the European, Japanese, and Russian "contributions" are a small fraction of the actual operating costs and requirements... but of course they want to maintain that "gravy train" since the Europeans subsidize their space programs and contractors via work for ISS just as we do, it's a 'national pride' thing as well, and they have plenty of "vested interests" (contractors, workers, contracts, managers, etc) all wanting to "keep their jobs" doing what they're doing, which of course requires an ISS program to work on... if it goes away, so do all those lucrative contracts, jobs, management positions, etc... Part of the reason it's not going away until reality FORCES it to go away, most likely... once those "vested interests" are there, getting them to "turn loose" or "give it up" is well nigh impossible.

I think NASA and their masters in Congress learned a few big lessons from ISS... First, they learned how NOT to do a large space station (or large space mission project like going to Mars)... orbital assembly from 20-odd ton chunks takes too long and is too expensive and complex... it can be done, but the expense is HUGE... better to send up 100+ ton modules or launch the mission with as few "assembly" flights as possible... hence the pressure for Ares V or SLS, a big, shiny, new super-heavy lift rocket that's all NASA... (though I think that's about THE worst way to do it... I'm not opposed to a big super-heavy lift rocket, per se, though sheer expense and the low flight rate leading to exhorbitant costs argue strongly against it, and if NASA is engineering it, it will become more of a "political animal" that will be exceedingly expensive, since it will be forced to use "selected favorite contractors" products (like ATK SRB's, SSME's, etc), instead of the most operationally and cost efficient design possible... That's why I'd like to see ALL rocket design "bid out" to the contractors with competing designs, much like the military procurement process works... ie, if Elon at SpaceX says he can build a Saturn V class launcher for $3.5 billion bucks in development money in about 3-5 years, let him present a plan-- open it up to the other contractors to bid on as well... reward the best proposal with a development contract... quit having NASA design everything "in house" and then paying contractors billions to build it in cost-plus contracting, which only rewards falling behind and going overbudget. Put NASA in an "approval mode" only-- let the contractors build it without NASA direct oversight and red tape. NASA gets the final "thumbs up, thumbs down" at various steps along the way, and can assist is requested or required, but get out of the d@mn rocket building business! Rocket design and construction has been focused in industry for the last 30 years-- no need for NASA to attempt to recreate, at great expense and waste of time, money, and manpower, that which already exists in industry and that is far more efficient and experienced and not so vulnerable to political pressure and control).

The second big lesson NASA learned is that reliance on international partners is not a good thing. Basically, by the time we finished bailing out the Russians with more cash infusions and time lost on the development of their "contribution" to the ISS, we could have basically spent that money here and developed our own versions of those systems (ISS service module, refueling capability, resupply/trash removal capabilities, etc.) and not had the 'hassle' of dealing with the Russians AT ALL... Congress doesn't exactly like being "held hostage" by the IP's either, and their "desires" and having to smooth over ruffled feathers when things go awry, like when Mike Griffin was planning to torpedo ISS in 2016 to pay for "exploration systems development" and the IP's started screaming about all their 'lost investment' due to the retirement of ISS (which IIRC was ORIGINALLY planned for retirement around 2016 ANYWAY, with a POSSIBLE extension to 2020... now it's planned to fly to AT LEAST 2020, probably 2024, and possibly FAR beyond that! Course nobody really figured it'd take THIRTEEN YEARS to build the d@mn thing in orbit, either... was originally only supposed to take like 4 years IIRC... course that's how "NASA planning" works... the ORIGINAL plans for shuttle, from a book I read from the mid-late 70's, stated shuttle was PLANNED to be operated from about 1977 (which slipped to 79 in short order, and then finally ended up being 1981 before it actually flew) until the MID-90's, when shuttle was to be RETIRED in about 1994-96 and replaced by a successor vehicle and system. Course we all know how THAT turned out! Shuttle was kept creaking along for another FIFTEEN YEARS past that! In all likelihood, so will ISS...

NASA has become a bloated gubmint bureaucracy, plain and simple. It's a victim of its own success. The powers that be (PTB) have become SO entrenched to the point that they're "sacred cows" and what's good for them goes well above what's good for the program... the program exists to serve THEM, NOT the other way around as it should be! Congressvermin love the big aerospace contractors and their lobbyists, who keep them wined and dined and produce fat contributions to their reelection campaigns... they love waving the flag and making pretty speeches in a Kennedy-esque way every time something "space related" happens, and they love the high paying, high tech jobs back in their home States and districts, and they're going to make D@MN sure that the projects that ARE approved keep the money flowing in the same directions it's been flowing, that is, into their favorite contractors and facilities in THEIR home State or district... whether it's good for the country, or for NASA, or even makes half-teaspoon of sense, who cares! Just as long as the gravy train keeps on a rollin'!!!

There's been those who talk of breaking up NASA, including former astronauts and space program luminaries, and some of their ideas DO have merit... NASA, as one "all encompassing" super-agency has become FAR too much a political animal to actually do what needs getting done. Any time there's talk of "streamlining NASA", or "improving things" or "cutting costs", the entrenched PTB's come out of the woodwork and kill it outright... when the cry "Ten healthy centers!" becomes more important to NASA's future than actually doing anything or going anywhere, there's something BAD WRONG! (This was the rallying cry during the Goldin Era, when Dan Goldin, as NASA Administrator, was considering closing and consolidating certain NASA centers as a cost-cutting measure, much as the "base closing committee" activities during the Clinton Era caused so much contention... the PTB came out of the woodwork, both inside and outside NASA, and killed the idea almost immediately... to this day NASA is more concerned about "ten healthy centers" than it is about actually what it needs to complete the programs it's been charged with... there's a LOT of make-work within NASA, just to give certain centers "something to do" and "a vital part in the program" to justify keeping it open regardless of the value or importance of the actual contribution, or the capability of the work being rolled into work being done elsewhere at a different center. Of course there's also a lot of perpetual infighting inside NASA between the rival centers... most easily illustrated between the constant warring over "who's king of the mountain" between Johnson Space Center in Houston, and Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville... and to a lesser extent, between the manned spaceflight centers (JSC, MSFC, KSC) and the "robotic" side of the program (primarily JPL, but also parts of LRC, LaRC, etc... then there's the battles over aeronautical research, primarily at Lewis, Goddard, and NASA Glenn, as well as Dryden, or rather Armstrong Research Center now). All these conflicting interests fighting against each other inside the same agency... the battles between HQ, MSFC, and JSC during the SSF/ISS program were highly illustrative of the problem... (read ISS-capades by Beatty if you really want the whole blow-by-blow account) really highlighted the constant infighting and backbiting, the constant waste of resources and conflicting interests and shuffling of personnel and resources back and forth, wasting tremendous effort and money... just sickening!)

Personally, I think it would be better to divide NASA up into three agencies-- one for robotic exploration and unmanned scientific probes and missions, a second for the manned space program, and a third for the aviation research aspects currently under the NASA umbrella. As it stands, the MANNED program is all that NASA's PTB's REALLY care about... that's where the BIG MONEY PROJECTS are, the big billion dollar plus development contracts that last for a decade, the big employment numbers, the big managerial and manpower requirements, the big Center infighting over control and influence (and thus funding) from a given program, etc... and invariably, it's the MANNED program that has the greatest funding requirements and gets into the most trouble financially... and when it does, NASA hides or shuffles its problems by robbing Peter to pay Paul, diverting funding from the unmanned robotic program (which actually does virtually ALL the "real" exploration of the unknown, exploring the solar system and increasing our scientific knowledge of the universe around us, whether it be via Hubble or any of the myriad probes operating in the solar system (and beyond now that Voyager has left!) The manned program has basically just been doing "peeing in jars and looking at stars" over and over again since 1972, truth be told, yet they get the vast lion's share of the funding, and when they hit the rocks, they rob the funding from the unmanned and aeronautical parts of NASA's budget to the extent possible without raising TOO much Congressional ire... (and since those areas are funded at a small fraction of the manned program anyway, nobody gets TOO upset when they divert funding and bring the unmanned program and even aeronautical programs to a virtual standstill for lack of funding-- a few political favors back and forth usually will buy the votes or hush the opposition to a tolerable level anyway).

If NASA were three separate agencies, with separate line-item budgets, then this sort of constant "robbing Peter to pay Paul" stuff couldn't go on, at least not without being extremely visible by having to be done in Congress, instead of on a NASA balance sheet and disbursement of appropriations... What that would mean for the actual budget for these different "agencies", who knows, but it would provide some much-needed STABILITY, and prevent robbing the cookie jar every time a NASA manned project goes overbudget or over-schedule or runs into some big technological snag, or simply when they overextend their reach and do a project that they KNOW will take a LOT more funding than it's appropriated.

Anyway, that's what I'd do... If I were king, anyway...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Well, if we want to be really brutal about it, **no** mass media sources in the U.S. or U.K. are truly "credible." You have to read all of them with the understanding it's all agenda-driven BS dictated by corporate suits in a beautiful office somewhere.

Absolutely true... :) OL JR :)
 
Wow, some people are still so stuck in the 50's...
 
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How so??

Later! OL JR :)



Luke, my comment was not aimed at you. It simply fell in behind your post. I would prefer not to comment further for fear of inciting a riot. I was simply amazed how some people still have not made it all the way to the 21st century...
 
I realize your comment was aimed at me, and that is fine. There is competition in the world, and not all nations are our friends. Make no mistake about this- Vlad Putin was KGB, and a communist. He is not a friend of the US or Europe, and unless you are not paying attention he is expanding by taking over Crimea and well on the way with the Ukraine. Wake up, the Cold War is alive and well, but the so called leaders of the US and Europe have not yet caught on to this.





Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
The lobbyists aren't the problem the politicians are... Anyways even if they could ban us it's whatever... Last I checked Russia was full of Freedom haters...

(I'M A LIBERTARIAN AND DO NOT CONDONE BUYING POLITICIANS COUGH LAST 54 years)
 
The USA is the Animal House of the ISS, that's why we got banned.

Without the benefit of double secret probation? That's against the rules of the PanGalactic Council! Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!
 
Without the benefit of double secret probation? That's against the rules of the PanGalactic Council! Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!

What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

[video=youtube;q7vtWB4owdE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE&feature=kp[/video]
 
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OK, this is now right on the precipice of going over the edge to becoming a political thread.

- George Gassaway

This thread was political the moment ISS was mentioned. It was always much more a political endeavour than a technological one.

The the use of phrases such as 'communist' an 'cold war' in 2014 is just bizarre.
 
Luke, my comment was not aimed at you. It simply fell in behind your post. I would prefer not to comment further for fear of inciting a riot. I was simply amazed how some people still have not made it all the way to the 21st century...

Ah, ok...

I'm not really concerned about the politics... I have my own and that's enough said on that subject... I'll leave the subject by saying that I trust Putin more than the present occupant of the White House... although, strangely enough, he's ATTEMPTED to do more to set NASA right than any other President in recent memory... just to throw something relevant to the original discussion of space policy brought on by this thread.

@ Alethins-- don't doubt for a second that the lobbyists aren't a HUGE part of the problem... If you want to know why things are the way they are, just FOLLOW THE MONEY... "We have the best government money can buy."

@ valley-- Absolutely true... ISS is far more a political exercise than a technological or scientific one... As for the use of the phrases "communist" and "Cold War", well, there's an old saying... "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..." As Shakespeare put it, "Would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet?" The Bible phrases it as, "By their fruits you shall know them." and "A thistle does not produce figs."

IOW, call it what you want, but the simple fact is that Russia's aims and interests usually do not align with ours... now that they seemed more determined to pursue their own interests, that will doubtlessly lead us into conflicting positions. Pretty much sums it up.

@ George-- Who's holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to read this again?? I must have missed you being appointed pope to decide what is a political discussion... Sorry I forgot to genuflect, what with this trick knee of mine... LOL:) Seriously, move along and go read a more "rocket related" discussion if this is bothering you for pity's sake... :eyeroll:

@ mark-- good points, but considering the fumbling, bumbling pattern of decision making and the handling of situations by our own gubmint, is it any wonder why a smart guy like Putin is emboldened since he's been able to do an end run around us at every turn?? Remember the Syrian crisis?? We were well on our way to a world war had Putin not pulled the chestnuts out of the fire by talking Assad into talks... all because certain politicians in the US went shooting their mouth off without thinking and couldn't bear to lose face... Our interests are opposed to be sure... Do we think the Russians can't or won't stand and fight for their interests if threatened any less than we ourselves would??

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Russia ending work on International Space Station in response to sanctions

https://thehill.com/policy/internat...ional-space-station-in-response-to-sanctions/
“The decision has been taken already, we’re not obliged to talk about it publicly,” said general director Dmitry Rogozin, the head of Russian space agency Roscosmos, according to Bloomberg, citing state media.

“I can say this only — in accordance with our obligations, we’ll inform our partners about the end of our work on the ISS with a year’s notice,” he added.
 
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