Upset off Newbie....(mostly frustrated)

[Antares JS]

It might be worth mentioning that Aerotech also has a few 38mm H, I, and J motors that don't require Hazmat as well.

If you're doing EX motors though, you're probably better off buying Loki cases.

 

[Tad]

+1..
There are many Loki High Power level 1 motors and even a level 2 motor that is USPS shippable = no haz mat..
Plus, Loki motor hardware id the standard of measure for mixing your own brews so to speak..
Please check here for 5 level 1 "H" motors that ship no haz--

https://onebadhawk.com/38mm--240ns-reload-kits.html
Take care,
Be safe,

Teddy

PS- I didn't find you to be whining at all,, just frustrated and speaking freely to perceived friends..

Ohh,, welcome to the forum..

Thank you so much, Teddy. Appreciate your comment. And I really appreciate the Loki info. Will be definitely looking at that option. Thanks!

 

[Tad]

It might be worth mentioning that Aerotech also has a few 38mm H, I, and J motors that don't require Hazmat as well.

If you're doing EX motors though, you're probably better off buying Loki cases.

Yup, Agreed.

 

[Flyfalcons]

Babar,
Thank you for your condescending answer. I completely agree with everything you said. Just not the way you said it. I don't want any rules changed. I am thankful for the strictness of this forum ( I actually stated that in a previous post). I am not in disagreement, I just felt like expressing my frustration....much in the same way we did in medical school when we whined about why we need to do all this ****; but we still did it knowing that it was the right thing to do and that it just makes us that much better prepared. Thank you for reminding me how condescending and "greater than thou" physicians can be. Loosen up. I was just venting.

To be fair, the way you have presented your message comes across as not completely rational. We are very protective of our hobby, don't know you from Adam, and have seen a not-insignificant number of nutballs come through this website and our launch sites.

 

[BABAR]

and have seen a not-insignificant number of nutballs come through this website and our launch sites.

This from the guy that flew a two fin guitar rocket!

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/summer-buildoff-roc-n-roll-flying-v-guitar.134436/

 

[Flyfalcons]

True! But I did try to build some trust among the rocket community before betraying everyone's sensibilities.

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

Thread summary: Guy who makes experimental motors is annoyed that forum disallows discussion of experimental motors. Other posters note that discussion of home-made explosives often get agencies like ATF, FBI too look unfavorably on the hobby. Posters note that hobby has enjoyed long regulatory support and strong safety record due to NAR, TRA declaring that only commercially made motors are allowed under their rules.

 

[BABAR]

Thread summary: Guy who makes experimental motors is annoyed that forum disallows discussion of experimental motors. Other posters note that discussion of home-made explosives often get agencies like ATF, FBI too look unfavorably on the hobby. Posters note that hobby has enjoyed long regulatory support and strong safety record due to NAR, TRA declaring that only commercially made motors are allowed under their rules.

Maybe. Or a guy gets a little loose and vents some frustration in a harmless manner. Another guy points out there are REASONS for the rules. OTHER guys jump in and welcome the guy and offer some HELPFUL advice that may help the ORIGINAL guy meet his goals easier and save some money.

I could have been a little less critical and more helpful. These are tough times with a lot of stress going on. Easy to lump someone in with the unfortunately not small number of posters that start out with, “I am going to build my first rocket to breach the Karman line......”. This guy is hooked up with Tripoli and may have some good ideas.

In any case, the OTHER posters were much better at “kindly steering” the poster toward safe, helpful, and economical options.

 

[Tobor]

Hello Tad. Welcome to TRF and Tripoli. I have enjoyed reading your posts/comments in this thread. It has resparked my budding interest in EX. Best of luck on your journey.

 

[jqavins]

There's a reason why these guys go for these slower fuels for bigger engines. Not as efficient with lower Isp but very forgiving Kn range as it pertains to chamber pressure. That's how you get a K-class with chamber pressure at a max of 321 psi.

Well, it looks like you can discuss such matters outside of the restricted subforum! Up to a point.

There's one thing no one has said so far in this thread. While you need L2 certification to fly EX under Tripoli rules, you can get access to the Research subforum with only L1. So if it's talking about it that you're interested in, L1 will suffice.

Finally, though I know it's not altogether satisfactory (or even close) you can certainly post things like:

I tested my new EX motor today. It worked, but not up to expectations. I should have got about 400 Ns and 150 N average thrust, but I only got 300 Ns, and the thrust averaged 90 N. I obviously need to increase the burn rate.​

Chewing the fat isn't as exciting as burning it, but hey, it's something. (Yes, I know, a fat and oxidizer formula would probably never be allowed by Tripoli, and probably for very good reasons, like it melts in the case.)

 

[Pariah Zero]

OP: for what it’s worth, I was chastised that propellant discussions belong in the EX forum a few months ago when I idly wondered about “snot” powered rockets.

If you’re into history, I really suggest reading Mark Canepa’s book Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships, as it covers the many struggles — over decades — that high power rocketry have overcome, including the BATFE doing its best to end the hobby.

After reading that, I understood a lot better where the strictness comes from.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Well, it looks like you can discuss such matters outside of the restricted subforum! Up to a point.

There's one thing no one has said so far in this thread. While you need L2 certification to fly EX under Tripoli rules, you can get access to the Research subforum with only L1. So if it's talking about it that you're interested in, L1 will suffice.

Finally, though I know it's not altogether satisfactory (or even close) you can certainly post things like:

I tested my new EX motor today. It worked, but not up to expectations. I should have got about 400 Ns and 150 N average thrust, but I only got 300 Ns, and the thrust averaged 90 N. I obviously need to increase the burn rate.​

Chewing the fat isn't as exciting as burning it, but hey, it's something. (Yes, I know, a fat and oxidizer formula would probably never be allowed by Tripoli, and probably for very good reasons, like it melts in the case.)

Actually a person flew a research hybrid that used sausage as the solid fuel. I don’t see a problem with using solid fat, at least with respect to the research safety code. Technical challenges are there to be solved.

 

[heada]

I know wax is used some. While not a solid fat, its not too far off. I'm sure it could be done.

 

[jqavins]

Sure, with protein binders (sausage) or super high molecular weight (organic waxes) maybe. But KN and lard? Methinks not.

 

[Tractionengines]

I am just getting back into this hobby with my kids after many years away. Just a note: My other hobby is antique equipment. (Steam engines among other things.) I have been operating and working with them since 1983. All it took was one person taking liberties with routine maintenance, and repairs then taking his unsafe machine to the Medina, OH fair in 2001. It blew up, killed the operator and others.
I now have to go to a certification class to be told what I know more about than some of the instructors, log many hours of operation being supervised, get a historical boiler operator license, have the state inspect my boilers, etc etc etc...
It only took 1 "incident" to make that hobby MUCH harder for everone else. Even 19 years later the hobby is still being scrutinized at every turn.
I am all for R&D and experimenting with rockets. (Size, shape, fuels, electronics, etc) BUT let's not give bureaucrats any reason to add "red tape".
Mike

 

[n27sb]

That was actually my first post. I live in central Florida and have been (incessantly) trying to get a hold of Tampa Tripoli to no avail. Maybe they're clickish? Spacecoast Tripoli, although further, was very attentive and immediately responded to my email. They have a vendor and I'm trying to reach out to him before launch date (mid-september). Further for sure, but, hey, I have no choice.

Tampa has an excellent club. But like most people the guys in charge all have day jobs. I suggest you go to the mid September launch and check things out. They probably have the best launch field and recovery area in Florida.
We also have a full working bathroom on site.
Feel free to contact me via PM For more details including directions. Brian the motor man is usually on site.
Their launch site is not far off I-4 in Plant City.

https://www.tripoli-tampa.com/

 

[DaHabes]

Ok, so now that I have your attention, I should warn you I've had some whiskey... it's the weekend....(explained later)...

Although I'm a newbie to this forum, I am certainly not a newbie to chemistry. I'm not some snotty nose teenager (they're not all snotty nosed) trying to try something new. I'm a nearly 53 year old doctor that has always loved chemistry. To my own credit, before it got pulled off of youtube (only because it broke laws internationally not domestically), I had the #1 youtube video for "Homemade black powder". I've also had some FANTASTIC results working with Dextrose, yeast, and wheated cereal....phenomenally delicious. (I told you it would be explained later....)

SO WHAT'S MY BEEF???!!!

Rocketry.

How frustrating.

And the best part? I can't even talk about it right now. Yup. I'm a newbie. Which means I can talk about anything except for what I am most passionate about. Chemistry. I can't talk about how frustrated I am about my numerous KNDX static tests. I can't comment on my pathetic Isp's that Nakka swears should be at a conservative 130 to 135 sec. I can't comment whether my monohyrdate dextrose was so waterlogged that it messed up my burn rate and thus my total impulse. I can't comment on whether I should attempt the anhydrous version based on the notion that I'm starting to feel like I need to pull out moisture on both oxidizer and fuel in this ridiculous Florida humidity!!! Or maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm not as methodical and diligent as I think I am. Side track: Delay grains???? The bane of my existence. But, thank the good LORD, solved that problem!!! Nakka to the rescue. (Sorry, can't comment on the specifics....) I can't even talk about my successes. Dan Pollino is amazing. I can't mention the successes I've had with flexi-fuel (although at the cost of a lower Isp but with a gratefully lower chamber pressure). I can't talk about how much I've learned from guys like R. Nakka, Pollino, Yawn, Jacob, and so many others.

Yep, I'm stuck. But I just joined Tripoli Rocketry Association (Proud member #20098) Level 0. Pay the Rocketry gods. (Not complaining here; happy to contribute to such a wonderful sport). However, I just ordered a commercial H motor whose hazmat fee was almost twice the price of the motor just to get my level 1. I built that motor for less than $4 bucks. Pffff. Then pay for a more expensive "J" motor (which I can make for less than $7) PLUS hazmat to get my level 2.

For what???

TO THEN BE ABLE TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT WHAT I'M MOST PASSIONATE ABOUT AND GET YOUR MOST VALUABLE AND NEEDED INPUT!!!!!!!!!!!

(sigh)

I could then even ask about composites? APCP? (No worries. I won't even consider it until I master my sugars).

Meanwhile, I'll just keep venting (mostly ranting) and sipping this wonderful concoction that even the most distinguished whiskey drinker swear it tastes like a very high end wheated whiskey. Pappy van winkle, anybody??

Oh, the formula???

Yeah, so sorry. I'm not allowed.

Cheers,
Tad

Love the thread, but equally interested in the whiskey. Care to share what rivals Pappy's, presumably at a fraction of the price? Always on the lookout for another whiskey (preferably bourbon) to try. Cheers.

 

[BABAR]

Brian the motor man is usually on site.
Their launch site is not far off I-4 in Plant City.

https://www.tripoli-tampa.com/

@Tad , this may be the solution or at least some of your frustrations. If @n27sb is willing to give you the name or pm you the contact information for the “motor” man, you can (potentially) arrange for your motor to meet you onsite, skip the hazmat fees, and your gonna need a waivered field and witnesses for a certification flight anyway. Of course we can still rant about Covid and mask wearing (or lack there of) and I don’t know when Tampa’s next launch is....

 

[n27sb]

@Tad , this may be the solution or at least some of your frustrations. If @n27sb is willing to give you the name or pm you the contact information for the “motor” man, you can (potentially) arrange for your motor to meet you onsite, skip the hazmat fees, and your gonna need a waivered field and witnesses for a certification flight anyway. Of course we can still rant about Covid and mask wearing (or lack there of) and I don’t know when Tampa’s next launch is....

The next launch is scheduled for Sept 19. Health safety precautions are on the website.

 

[BABAR]

The next launch is scheduled for Sept 19. Health safety precautions are on the website.

Does the “motor man” mind if his contact information is published on the forum? Or can Tad presume that the motor man will have likely have everything needed except the rocket for a Cert Flight?

 

[jqavins]

One way or another, Tad, you should contact the motor man ahead of time in order to make sure he has not just any H motor, but the actual one you want for your flight. Or alternatively, to find out what he'll have so you can sim the flight with it and make any necessary adjustments on your end.