Upset off Newbie....(mostly frustrated)

[Tad]

Ok, so now that I have your attention, I should warn you I've had some whiskey... it's the weekend....(explained later)...

Although I'm a newbie to this forum, I am certainly not a newbie to chemistry. I'm not some snotty nose teenager (they're not all snotty nosed) trying to try something new. I'm a nearly 53 year old doctor that has always loved chemistry. To my own credit, before it got pulled off of youtube (only because it broke laws internationally not domestically), I had the #1 youtube video for "Homemade black powder". I've also had some FANTASTIC results working with Dextrose, yeast, and wheated cereal....phenomenally delicious. (I told you it would be explained later....)

SO WHAT'S MY BEEF???!!!

Rocketry.

How frustrating.

And the best part? I can't even talk about it right now. Yup. I'm a newbie. Which means I can talk about anything except for what I am most passionate about. Chemistry. I can't talk about how frustrated I am about my numerous KNDX static tests. I can't comment on my pathetic Isp's that Nakka swears should be at a conservative 130 to 135 sec. I can't comment whether my monohyrdate dextrose was so waterlogged that it messed up my burn rate and thus my total impulse. I can't comment on whether I should attempt the anhydrous version based on the notion that I'm starting to feel like I need to pull out moisture on both oxidizer and fuel in this ridiculous Florida humidity!!! Or maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm not as methodical and diligent as I think I am. Side track: Delay grains???? The bane of my existence. But, thank the good LORD, solved that problem!!! Nakka to the rescue. (Sorry, can't comment on the specifics....) I can't even talk about my successes. Dan Pollino is amazing. I can't mention the successes I've had with flexi-fuel (although at the cost of a lower Isp but with a gratefully lower chamber pressure). I can't talk about how much I've learned from guys like R. Nakka, Pollino, Yawn, Jacob, and so many others.

Yep, I'm stuck. But I just joined Tripoli Rocketry Association (Proud member #20098) Level 0. Pay the Rocketry gods. (Not complaining here; happy to contribute to such a wonderful sport). However, I just ordered a commercial H motor whose hazmat fee was almost twice the price of the motor just to get my level 1. I built that motor for less than $4 bucks. Pffff. Then pay for a more expensive "J" motor (which I can make for less than $7) PLUS hazmat to get my level 2.

For what???

TO THEN BE ABLE TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT WHAT I'M MOST PASSIONATE ABOUT AND GET YOUR MOST VALUABLE AND NEEDED INPUT!!!!!!!!!!!

(sigh)

I could then even ask about composites? APCP? (No worries. I won't even consider it until I master my sugars).

Meanwhile, I'll just keep venting (mostly ranting) and sipping this wonderful concoction that even the most distinguished whiskey drinker swear it tastes like a very high end wheated whiskey. Pappy van winkle, anybody??

Oh, the formula???

Yeah, so sorry. I'm not allowed.

Cheers,
Tad

 

[dvdsnyd]

Hi Tad,
Welcome.
I get your frustration.
One place you can freely talk about sugar motors is the SugPro email list.
R. Nakka is part of it, and is active.
https://www.freelists.org/list/sugpro

Also, have you checked out Scott Fintel? He isn't doing anything right now, but you can access his stuff via the wayback timemachine. One of my favorites.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160607184454/http:/www.thefintels.com:80/aer/supportequipment.htm

Dave

 

[Tad]

Oh, wow. Awesome. Wasn't aware of those resources.

Thank you.

 

[heada]

The restrictions this forum places on EX are just plain silly.

The I motor is still HPR level 1. To get level 2 you need a J/K/L motor.

 

[Kelly]

A couple things...
First, genuinely, I feel your pain. Rocketry, being what it is, sometimes requires you to jump through a lot of hoops and do some (arguably) meaningless things before you can do the things you want to do. It sucks, but if you want to use other peoples forums, insurance, launches, etc. then you need to play by their rules. I had been involved in chemistry, pyro, and motor building for many years, but was frustrated by how/when/where I could actually do launches. So, I went the Tripoli route, and jumped through the hoops (including getting an L2 cert so that I could launch mid-power motors). Seemed silly at the time, but in the end it was worth it.

Second, its not required to do all that to talk about motor building. There are other forums for doing so, such as SugPro (which I see someone else mentioned, as I was typing this). It's not even required to do all that to launch your rockets - you just need to find a launch and/or site which isn't administered under Tripoli or NAR guidelines. That can be much more fraught with difficulties, but it is possible. Depends a lot on where you're located.

Welcome to the forum, and to Tripoli.

 

[Tad]

The restrictions this forum places on EX are just plain silly.

The I motor is still HPR level 1. To get level 2 you need a J/K/L motor.

yup, you're right. I meant J motor for level 2. My 6 grain Binder Design casing can pull it off. But commercial it is.

 

[Tad]

A couple things...
First, genuinely, I feel your pain. Rocketry, being what it is, sometimes requires you to jump through a lot of hoops and do some (arguably) meaningless things before you can do the things you want to do. It sucks, but if you want to use other peoples forums, insurance, launches, etc. then you need to play by their rules. I had been involved in chemistry, pyro, and motor building for many years, but was frustrated by how/when/where I could actually do launches. So, I went the Tripoli route, and jumped through the hoops (including getting an L2 cert so that I could launch mid-power motors). Seemed silly at the time, but in the end it was worth it.

Second, its not required to do all that to talk about motor building. There are other forums for doing so, such as SugPro (which I see someone else mentioned, as I was typing this). It's not even required to do all that to launch your rockets - you just need to find a launch and/or site which isn't administered under Tripoli or NAR guidelines. That can be much more fraught with difficulties, but it is possible. Depends a lot on where you're located.

Welcome to the forum, and to Tripoli.

Thanks, Kelly. Yes, it reminds me a lot of my journey to my doctorate. Many hoops that feel meaningless but, in the end, are worthwhile. I'm glad I joined Tripoli. The links earlier will be carefully investigated. Thank you.

 

[NateB]

I understand your frustration about Ex motors. It is also important to note that Triploi only allows Sugar motors and APCP motors to be launched as research motors. I have made BP and spiced up BP motors, but they can only be flown under a pyro permit with the firework club and that brings a few other hoops to go through to stay on the right side of the law.

 

[Tad]

NateB,
I hear you. Faced that with BP manufacture for BP rifles and revolvers. Yes, always on the right side of the law. Even if it seems ludicrous. Law doesn't care.

 

[Kelly]

Oh, one other thing to be aware of: Tripoli rules don't allow many of the things that sugar users often work with: No PVC casings; only dextrose/sorbitol/erythritol can be used as the primary fuel, etc. Be sure to read the code at
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/ResearchSafetyCode - 2017.pdf
before going too far with something you plan to fly under Tripoli.

 

[Tad]

Yep, Kelly. Read that already. Thanks. That's exactly the reason I want to get KNDX down in a repeatable successful manner. But Tripoli really should consider Pollino's flexi-fuel. The Kn to psi chamber pressures are somewhere between Sorbitol and erythritol; both of which they accept. Safe enough to use in PVC. Even if Tripoli doesn't allow for PVC, (which is understandable), they should consider blends like flexi-fuel. Has it's place in bigger, longer, single grain motors. Just saying...

 

[OverTheTop]

There is also a research section of this forum. If you are a US resident you can apply to the forum moderators to be admitted to that area.

 

[crossfire]

Ok, so now that I have your attention, I should warn you I've had some whiskey... it's the weekend....(explained later)...

Although I'm a newbie to this forum, I am certainly not a newbie to chemistry. I'm not some snotty nose teenager (they're not all snotty nosed) trying to try something new. I'm a nearly 53 year old doctor that has always loved chemistry. To my own credit, before it got pulled off of youtube (only because it broke laws internationally not domestically), I had the #1 youtube video for "Homemade black powder". I've also had some FANTASTIC results working with Dextrose, yeast, and wheated cereal....phenomenally delicious. (I told you it would be explained later....)

SO WHAT'S MY BEEF???!!!

Rocketry.

How frustrating.

And the best part? I can't even talk about it right now. Yup. I'm a newbie. Which means I can talk about anything except for what I am most passionate about. Chemistry. I can't talk about how frustrated I am about my numerous KNDX static tests. I can't comment on my pathetic Isp's that Nakka swears should be at a conservative 130 to 135 sec. I can't comment whether my monohyrdate dextrose was so waterlogged that it Messed up my burn rate and thus my total impulse. I can't comment on whether I should attempt the anhydrous version based on the notion that I'm starting to feel like I need to pull out moisture on both oxidizer and fuel in this ridiculous Florida humidity!!! Or maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm not as methodical and diligent as I think I am. Side track: Delay grains???? The bane of my existence. But, thank the good LORD, solved that problem!!! Nakka to the rescue. (Sorry, can't comment on the specifics....) I can't even talk about my successes. Dan Pollino is amazing. I can't mention the successes I've had with flexi-fuel (although at the cost of a lower Isp but with a gratefully lower chamber pressure). I can't talk about how much I've learned from guys like R. Nakka, Pollino, Yawn, Jacob, and so many others.

Yep, I'm stuck. But I just joined Tripoli Rocketry Association (Proud member #20098) Level 0. Pay the Rocketry gods. (Not complaining here; happy to contribute to such a wonderful sport). However, I just ordered a commercial H motor whose hazmat fee was almost twice the price of the motor just to get my level 1. I built that motor for less than $4 bucks. Pffff. Then pay for a more expensive "I" motor (which I can make for less than $7) PLUS hazmat to get my level 2.

For what???

TO THEN BE ABLE TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT WHAT I'M MOST PASSIONATE ABOUT AND GET YOUR MOST VALUABLE AND NEEDED INPUT!!!!!!!!!!!

(sigh)

I could then even ask about composites? APCP? (No worries. I won't even consider it until I master my sugars).

Meanwhile, I'll just keep venting (mostly ranting) and sipping this wonderful concoction that even the most distinguished whiskey drinker swear it tastes like a very high end wheated whiskey. Pappy van winkle, anybody??

Oh, the formula???

Yeah, so sorry. I'm not allowed.

Cheers,
Tad

Welcome
Where do you live? If you have a club launch you can attend and they have a vendor attend the launches you can purchase motors and pay no shipping

 

[heada]

Now that you're a Tripoli member, put together your case for adding flexi-fuel to the approved EX formulations and ask that it be added. It's possible to get things added but you do have to have a case and safety is a major concern.

 

[heada]

Welcome
Where do you live? If you have a club launch you can attend and they have a vendor attend the launches you can purchase motors and pay no shipping

Depending on the manufacturer, you can get some motors haz-mat free. Loki Gs, Hs, most Is and even 2 Js are haz-mat free. As an added bonus, Loki cases are great for EX uses.

 

[Tad]

Welcome
Where do you live? If you have a club launch you can attend and they have a vendor attend the launches you can purchase motors and pay no shipping

That was actually my first post. I live in central Florida and have been (incessantly) trying to get a hold of Tampa Tripoli to no avail. Maybe they're clickish? Spacecoast Tripoli, although further, was very attentive and immediately responded to my email. They have a vendor and I'm trying to reach out to him before launch date (mid-september). Further for sure, but, hey, I have no choice.

 

[Kelly]

But Tripoli really should consider Pollino's flexi-fuel.

Tripoli (at least under their most recent president, who is an active participant in this forum) has shown a remarkable willingness to consider changes to the safety code, provided safety can be maintained. Bring forward a proposal, with data, and it should get a fair hearing.
That said, the limitation on sugars has more to do with the autoignition temperature of the propellant, given that the most common processing technique involves heat. Chamber pressure doesn't figure in, as that is more a function of Kn than the fuel.

 

[Tad]

Now that you're a Tripoli member, put together your case for adding flexi-fuel to the approved EX formulations and ask that it be added. It's possible to get things added but you do have to have a case and safety is a major concern.

Heada,
That's great to hear. I would love make a case for flexi. We have some good data with safety as our main concern. There's a reason why these guys go for these slower fuels for bigger engines. Not as efficient with lower Isp but very forgiving Kn range as it pertains to chamber pressure. That's how you get a K-class with chamber pressure at a max of 321 psi. Although I wouldn't, even PVC can handle that. (hope I didn't break rules...)

In regards to the cases, Those are great brands. I have Binder Design. I was thinking of just going the commercial route for level 1 and 2. Then, go from there.

 

[Tad]

Tripoli (at least under their most recent president, who is an active participant in this forum) has shown a remarkable willingness to consider changes to the safety code, provided safety can be maintained. Bring forward a proposal, with data, and it should get a fair hearing.
That said, the limitation on sugars has more to do with the autoignition temperature of the propellant, given that the most common processing technique involves heat. Chamber pressure doesn't figure in, as that is more a function of Kn than the fuel.

Yes, I understand. Nakka and others have shown the affects of overheating common sugar propellants. Sorbitol, and dextrose, for example, simply become charred. Accidental ignition during casting is highly improbable. Similar studies need to be done for others as well. Probably with similar results. Agreed.

 

[Kelly]

It's been a while since I saw any conversation on Flex-fuel (Dan used to be an active participant on the SugPro list), so I went and looked it up. It's possible that it might be legal under Tripoli rules, since the sucrose in this is only a minor component (and it helps that the processing never goes above 100C). But, more discussion would probably need to be moved to the research forum.

 

[Steve Shannon]

First, welcome to Tripoli!
Second, tell me what Flexi-fuel is please. My understanding is that sucrose is not totally prohibited, but the three listed sugars must be the primary fuel.
Finally, yeah, all certification flights must be done using certified motors.
If you have any questions please feel free to reach out. I’m no longer Tripoli’s president but I’m still involved.
Steve

 

[BABAR]

I am an American a Citizen and NAR member (not Tripoli, no place local and I don’t fly high power.). I am not even L1.

For what is is worth, I am glad that The Rocketry Forum restricts discussion of EX motors and that NAR and Tripoli have rules on experimental motors. There are both kids who have no business having access to this information, and once in a while some real “bad guys” who should in no way be assisted or encouraged (I tracked @cwbullet Vatsass brothers thread, and on their thread they were in email communication with a guy they reported to FBI who turned out to be a probable terrorist. We get the occasional suspicious post here, most commonly a newbie with no model Rocketry experience asking about making motors.......)

I’m a doctor too, and to be honest making my own motors scares the meconium out of me. Looks to me like the research forum is a good resource IF you are an appropriate candidate and that Tripoli is more than willing to work with you if you can assure them that you are safe.

Stop whining and accept that when you are involved in an activity that has potential for significant risk to your life, the lives of those around you, and personal and public property around you, there are going to be some rules. The ones in place on this forum and in the NAR and Tripoli seem eminently reasonable to me.

 

[BABAR]

One more thing. We all owe a great debt to those who fought legal battle with government to allow us to enjoy the hobby with relatively few restrictions compared to what certain members of the government wanted. Those Rocketry individuals as well as they rest of us who fly have a vested interest in keeping the hobby safe to deny the bureaucrats from messing with us again. That’s WHY the rules you complain about are in place. To keep inexperienced or reckless people from doing stupid things that get the government coming down with a can of whoop-butt on all off us.

As a physician, you were REQUIRED to surround yourself with experienced people to learn the skills you now use to help and possibly even save the life’s of the people you care for. You didn’t just look it up on the internet or figured it out by email. Dealing with explosives really IS rocket science. Get to know and actually fly with people who have DONE what you want to do. Most likely you will enjoy it, and assuming you demonstrate a good and positive attitude they will likely save you a lot of time and money, and potentially save you and those around you a lot of grief.

Enjoy your concoction. Please don’t drink and build motors/fly rockets at the same time.

 

[cwbullet]

One more thing. We all owe a great debt to those who fought legal battle with government to allow us to enjoy the hobby with relatively few restrictions compared to what certain members of the government wanted. Those Rocketry individuals as well as they rest of us who fly have a vested interest in keeping the hobby safe to deny the bureaucrats from messing with us again. That’s WHY the rules you complain about are in place. To keep inexperienced or reckless people from doing stupid things that get the government coming down with a can of whoop-butt on all off us.

As a physician, you were REQUIRED to surround yourself with experienced people to learn the skills you now use to help and possibly even save the life’s of the people you care for. You didn’t just look it up on the internet or figured it out by email. Dealing with explosives really IS rocket science. Get to know and actually fly with people who have DONE what you want to do. Most likely you will enjoy it, and assuming you demonstrate a good and positive attitude they will likely save you a lot of time and money, and potentially save you and those around you a lot of grief.

Enjoy your concoction. Please don’t drink and build motors/fly rockets at the same time.

Concur 100%. Rocketry is a trade that we mentor safely. It is very similar to how mentor young physicians or medical students. We have to maintain some control or the right will be taken.

 

[Tad]

Babar,
Thank you for your condescending answer. I completely agree with everything you said. Just not the way you said it. I don't want any rules changed. I am thankful for the strictness of this forum ( I actually stated that in a previous post). I am not in disagreement, I just felt like expressing my frustration....much in the same way we did in medical school when we whined about why we need to do all this ****; but we still did it knowing that it was the right thing to do and that it just makes us that much better prepared. Thank you for reminding me how condescending and "greater than thou" physicians can be. Loosen up. I was just venting.

 

[Tad]

First, welcome to Tripoli!
Second, tell me what Flexi-fuel is please. My understanding is that sucrose is not totally prohibited, but the three listed sugars must be the primary fuel.
Finally, yeah, all certification flights must be done using certified motors.
If you have any questions please feel free to reach out. I’m no longer Tripoli’s president but I’m still involved.
Steve

Thanks Steve. Very pleased with Tripoli. Going for a level 1 in a couple of weeks over in the Spacecoast.
I don't think I can get into any of the specifics of flexi-fuel here. But if you look at Jacob's Rocketry page, he explains it to some degree.

 

[Tad]

Concur 100%. Rocketry is a trade that we mentor safely. It is very similar to how mentor young physicians or medical students. We have to maintain some control or the right will be taken.

Agreed.

 

[BABAR]

Babar,
Thank you for your condescending answer. I completely agree with everything you said. Just not the way you said it. I don't want any rules changed. I am thankful for the strictness of this forum ( I actually stated that in a previous post). I am not in disagreement, I just felt like expressing my frustration....much in the same way we did in medical school when we whined about why we need to do all this ****; but we still did it knowing that it was the right thing to do and that it just makes us that much better prepared. Thank you for reminding me how condescending and "greater than thou" physicians can be. Loosen up. I was just venting.

Fair enough. Apologies if I offended. I wish you many successful and safe flights.

 

[Tad]

Thank you. You as well.

 

[Onebadhawk]

Depending on the manufacturer, you can get some motors haz-mat free. Loki Gs, Hs, most Is and even 2 Js are haz-mat free. As an added bonus, Loki cases are great for EX uses.

+1..
There are many Loki High Power level 1 motors and even level 2 motors that is USPS shippable = no haz mat..
Plus, Loki motor hardware is the standard of measure for mixing your own brews so to speak..
Please check here for 5 level 1 "H" motors that ship no haz--

https://onebadhawk.com/38mm--240ns-reload-kits.html
Take care,
Be safe,

Teddy

PS- I didn't find you to be whining at all,, just frustrated and speaking freely to perceived friends..

Ohh,, welcome to the forum..