The coming death of model rocketry as we know it

[Starcommander]

I'd buy that for a dollar!

Dang, you outbid me!:surprised:

 

[spacecadet]

You have 20 seconds to comply.

 

[dave carver]

It doesn't matter how high a rocket goes in a ballistic flight, that wasn't the point. A rocket(or bullet) will only travel out a distance equal to it's potential altitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajectory The math in this page is beyond me but some here can proof my statement.

Or, you can take out your copy of October Skys, fast forward to the part where Homer Hickam is explaning to the principal why the rocket that was found could not be theirs'.

 

[shreadvector]

I'd buy that for a dollar!

https://new.wavlist.com/movies/299/roboc-dollar.wav

 

[Indiana]

The math in this page is beyond me but some here can proof my statement.

I'll take a stab.

Basic projectile math:
Initial velocity = 100m/s


Altitude (Ymax)Ymax= Y0 + V0t-(1/2)at^2

Y0 = 0

S0

Y=V0t-(1/2)at^2

t = (V-V0)/a (gravity ‘g’ in this case)

V(at apogee) = 0

so t=-V0/g

so

Ymax= V0*-V0/g –(1/2)g(-V0/g)^2

Ymax=-V0^2/g-(1/2)g(V0^2/g)^2

Ymax= -V0^2/g –(1/2)gV0^2/g^2

Ymax= -2V0^2/2g – V0^2/2g

Ymax = -V0^2/2g (g is working against us so g = -9.8m/s^2


For V0 = 100m/s
Ymax = (100m/s)^2/(9.8m/s^2)

Ymax = 510.2m

Horizontal distance (Xmax):

Xmax = X0 + V0t – (1/2)gt^2

I’ll skip all the manipulation this time and skip right to:

Theta (the launch angle ) = 45 degrees

Xmax = (V^2 sin(2 theta))/g

Xmax = ((100m/s)^2 sin (2*45))/(9.8m/s^2)

Xmax = 1020.4

Twice as far.

 

[flight4]

I believe your distance traveled is correct since for the simple case of a 45 angle the equation simplifies to d = v^2 / g.

I'm having more trouble with the max height (for a projectile) but at 45 degrees shouldn't this be about 1/4 of the distance?

 

[ddmobley]

Terry, you have to remember that early on in the hobby, G. Harry had considerable objections to overcome himself. He perservered and the hobby grew. You have your own set of objections to overcome here, and my recommendation is to follow G. Harry's lead — take the objections in stride and keep pressing forward. Regular communication with your parks department illuminating the safe nature of the hobby can overcome the intial objections. Lobby some town council members, win their support and then take it back up with the city. Point out the benefit the town can enjoy in developing a new generation of American scientists and engineers. In time, you can perservere too.

 

[SCE to AUX]

Fortunately for G. Harry Stine, he was promoting the hobby at a time before the country became overpopulated with lawyers, and when developing a new generation of scientists and engineers (particularly in aerospace) was seen as a pressing issue of national security, not to mention national pride.

Nowadays, we aren't quite so lucky. If model rocketry were just being invented today, it would be sued out of existence, and the founders packed off to Gitmo for "training future terrorists" or something...

 

[doug_man_sams]

If model rocketry were just being invented today, it would be sued out of existence, and the founders packed off to Gitmo for "training future terrorists" or something...

I'm not quite that cynical, but I'm afraid there is indeed more to overcome than just the false perception of fireworks. In many cases, I'm sure the anti-MR rules are rooted in irresponsible MR flying. Either some ignorant adults or undisciplined teenagers likely launched when there were too many non-participants in the area, and the mayor and parks department had to enact the rule because of all the complaints. IOW, another case of the few spoiling it for the many.

And in some cases, it's not just individuals. When clubs overfly their fields, they invite these kind of restrictions, too.

That said, I also get a little frustrated by society's willingness to take away everyone's rights in order to deal with just a few who are causing the problems. I really do wish rulemakers would think long and hard before enacting bans. Too bad they can't find middle ground such as having rules against "unsafe flying" instead of against "all flying" I suspect this is where the lawyers have really caused the problem. The rule was in the gray zone, and they argued that their clients weren't being unsafe. So the rulemakers had to outlaw it altogether.

Nevertheless, I encourage persistence. No reason the parks department or city council can't allow organized (club) launches on fields that are otherwise off-limits to individuals.

Doug


.

 

[Mikus_Superfly]

There are a lot of rules on the books that are not followed to the letter of the law until someone complains. If it were me I would go launch rockets unless some authority came and told me not to do it. Back in the old days (1970's) my brother and I launched our rockets from a school parking lot. I don't know if it was legal but no one ever complained.

Howdy. When I was a kid we used to launch at that park across from Tascosa HS back in the 70's because we lived basically next door to it on West Lawn. No problems whatsoever.

Man were things easier back then.

 

[SpartaChris]

Howdy. When I was a kid we used to launch at that park across from Tascosa HS back in the 70's because we lived basically next door to it on West Lawn. No problems whatsoever.

Man were things easier back then.

Well yeah, that was before the days when people came to the realization that they could extort money out of you by merely alledging that something happened. Heaven forbid they actually have to *prove* it. No, they simply have to make the claim. Next thing you know, you're settling out of court simply because it's cheaper for you to pay someone off than to fight it.

 

[Handeman]

I have a suggestion that might work. Since school grounds are not normally considered "parks" and don't fall under the Park and Rec. Dept., check out the school grounds.

Middle schools would probably be the best, because if they are like the ones here, the Science/Technology courses build and launch model rockets as part of the course study. Most principles can give you permission to launch. If you do need to go to the school board, it is still hard to ban an after school activitiy that is being done during school hours, if it is safe during school with all the kids around, why isn't it safe after school when the kids are gone?

If the school doesn't have a rocket launch section for their science course, you can always work with the science teachers/prinicple to get one put in place. That way, everyone wins.

 

[Mikus_Superfly]

On cue, a new (or reborn) rocketeer came upon the scene at the right time and offered his family's property (nearly 90 acres) down in Needville, TX (yes, he's a regular on this forum).

God bless him too!

 

[Bazookadale]

I have a suggestion that might work. Since school grounds are not normally considered "parks" and don't fall under the Park and Rec. Dept., check out the school grounds.

Middle schools would probably be the best, because if they are like the ones here, the Science/Technology courses build and launch model rockets as part of the course study. Most principles can give you permission to launch. If you do need to go to the school board, it is still hard to ban an after school activitiy that is being done during school hours, if it is safe during school with all the kids around, why isn't it safe after school when the kids are gone?

Just don't tick off the soccer moms, they own the school - or think they do!

If the school doesn't have a rocket launch section for their science course, you can always work with the science teachers/prinicple to get one put in place. That way, everyone wins.

That is the best approach but even the principal will lose a fight against soccer

 

[dwmzmm]

Howdy. When I was a kid we used to launch at that park across from Tascosa HS back in the 70's because we lived basically next door to it on West Lawn. No problems whatsoever.

Man were things easier back then.

When I got started way back in the summer of 1969, I (we) launched our
model rockets on the grounds of CW Ruckel JR. High School in Niceville, FL.
We encountered no problems during the many times using this field. Here's
a few pics taken during the good old days.... (yes, start dreaming)

Sorry if the pics are a bit blurry; they come from the old slides my Dad took.
The third pic shows me (then 13 years old) with my very first launch, the Estes Astron Alpha on the Electro Launcher. Never forgot that moment....

 

[jflis]

I have a suggestion that might work. Since school grounds are not normally considered "parks" and don't fall under the Park and Rec. Dept., check out the school grounds.

Middle schools would probably be the best, because if they are like the ones here, the Science/Technology courses build and launch model rockets as part of the course study. Most principles can give you permission to launch. If you do need to go to the school board, it is still hard to ban an after school activitiy that is being done during school hours, if it is safe during school with all the kids around, why isn't it safe after school when the kids are gone?

If the school doesn't have a rocket launch section for their science course, you can always work with the science teachers/prinicple to get one put in place. That way, everyone wins.

All very good points. My exposure to several area schools gives me many potential launch areas which is great for testing out new designs.

As Handeman says, if they don't already have such a program, find a way to start one (it doesn't take much time, a couple hours a week for a few weeks is all). And you will then be known as "rocket man" and have a field for life

 

[terryg]

It all depends on where you live. We launch at the counties modiplex park build for RC flyers and other hobbies on land used for the CAP water project. In the city there is a hobby oriented park. It has a lake for rc boats, facilities for control line aircraft and a couple of areas for rocket pads.

 

[Fred]

Well yeah, that was before the days when people came to the realization that they could extort money out of you by merely alledging that something happened. Heaven forbid they actually have to *prove* it. No, they simply have to make the claim. Next thing you know, you're settling out of court simply because it's cheaper for you to pay someone off than to fight it.

A very sad state of affairs that extends further north then you might think.
Cheers
fred

 

[Fred]

All very good points. My exposure to several area schools gives me many potential launch areas which is great for testing out new designs.

As Handeman says, if they don't already have such a program, find a way to start one (it doesn't take much time, a couple hours a week for a few weeks is all). And you will then be known as "rocket man" and have a field for life

I concur. It's how i do it
Cheers
fred

 

[Peartree]

I am working on talking to local science and math teachers but sadly, particularly for a rural school in a farming community, our schools don't have much open space. Everything they do have is baseball dugouts and chainlink fences...

 

[Handeman]

Back in the day, I went to an organized rocket launch, my first an only one back then.

I don't know who organized it, but they had 10 ten rods on a 2x4 that was set up at home plate at a little league diamond. Flyers had to stay behind the fence until ready to launch or recover. You lined up in one dugout area before going out to the pad. Then went and waited in the other dugout until the rack was launched, then you went out and recoverd. Worked very well.

 

[Thrasher]

Our Jr/SR High School had a rocket club and we launched on the football field and there were fields around it. One time we went to a church to launch because it was surrounded by open farm land. That was the late '70's and early '80's. I still go to local parks and schools to launch. I've had no problems. I don't go when there are any games going on. The fields here are small and there are lots of trees surrounding. Most of my launches are at METRA in NY.

 

[Handeman]

I haven't used parks, because there really aren't any close that are large enough. The ones that are big enough are wooded with hiking trails.

I do my LPR launches at the middle school my kids used to go to. That's what actually made me a BAR. My son came home with a rocket he had built and launched in class and wanted to launch it again.

I've never had a problem at the school. The sheriffs have shown up twice when someone called about "someone launching fireworks". When I explained what I was doing, and demonstrated a couple of rockets, they wished me well, told me to be safe, and left, leaving me to launch in peace.

 

[Micromeister]

I have to concur with Jim:
Working with School systems is a great way to gain access to thier fields.
Many High School Military Cadet programs have a rocketry wing, at least the ones sponcered by the airforce. My son (and most of my equipment) were used all 3 years he attended Ballou Hi School in SE Washington DC, so don't let the fact your dealing with an inner city school system foil you contacting them. My second addition of G. Harry Stines "Handbook of Rocketry" ended up staying with the school
We had a wonderful time those years, putting on several special launches for the school system in a simple football field statium. 1/4A -D motors right in the heart of a busy city

I also Added Model Rocketry to our Troop BSA program, including a first every Model Rocket field day, a weekend 300 cub and 160 scout (12 troop) Camporee that saw over 1000 models flown over the two days in featuring open spot landing and a duration competition on 3 levels.
This Comporee was held at a Maryland State park, but believe me it took as I recall more than 6 meetings, and BSA council honchos as well as myself to get the parks premission and all the insurance stuff ironed out.
It was then I became aware there are Written regulations that for the most part DO NOT Allow most flying model sports in ANY city, State, or National Park. At least that goes for my reigon DC, Maryland and Virginia.

We've also flown from Masassas Battlefield Park Picnic Grounds for awhile with our Novaar buddy until they decided Nothing could be done at the grounds that are "Out of Period". so nothing flying but kites
Parks as someone said eariler are owned by everyone but are regulated by local authorities who are charged with the safety and enjoyment of everyone using the park. Ours is a hobby that requires unsuspecting by-standers to be fully aware of what is about to happen. We all know that is NOT going to happen in most general use parks.

I don't see the hobby dieing because Parks are not allowing model rocketry, it frankly make a lot of sense.
Fly on private land, at a school or with a Mod-roc group. it's really that smarts way to go.

 

[jcsalem]

I'll echo the comments about working with the local schools, scouts, etc. and about trying different agencies. I prefer face to face meetings because (1) it's harder for people to say "No" in person, and (2) the officials will (hopefully) be more confident by meeting you in person.

For awhile, every time I drove by a big field (there's not many in New England) I'd follow up by figuring out who owned it and how I could approach them. There are a lot of land owners who enjoyed rockets as a kid or who want to encourage local kids' education.

In my town, the Rec department has been very supportive. I've also gotten permission to use some of the town's conservation land (farm fields) for TARC launches. Explaining how I was mentoring the local high school kids in a rocketry competition made it a pretty easy sale.

Good luck, all!!!

Jim Salem

 

[AKPilot]

Terry, here's your answer here - but, get your favorite beverage and allocate yourself about an hour to read.

AKPilot Wins Against City Parks Commissioner

You have rights and can pursue them in a legal, nonconfrontational manner. The City Parks Manager/Commissioner isn't the final say - your Mayor and City/County Council are. To be honest, even the city Police Chief at one point told me that if I showed up again, he'd arrest me - until I asked him what ordinance he was citing.

For me it was a long haul and tough at times, but now we have it in writing and on city video that launching model rockets from our local 100+ acre park is permitted and legal. Since this incident over two years ago, we've had steady free access to this park for launching up through G motors. The icing on the cake is that beings we're considered non-profit, they don't even charge us for reserving all the fields at one go - but the soccer people pay $4 per hour, per field.

 

[luke strawalker]

With the internet available as a miracle tool nowdays, you might have a pretty good chance of finding someone nearby who flies rockets and has access to some wide open spaces (farmland, etc.) pretty close, or they might know someone who does. Co-workers, friends, acquaintances, etc. may also have 'a friend of a friend' nearby with some acreage that would be suitable.

The next best bet would be to go for a joyride outside town in the country nearby and look for farmers or ranchers out and about on their place. If you see a nice place that looks promising and the guy is out cutting hay or disking fields or something, park and walk out to the end of the field and have a chat with him when he gets back to that end of the field. Farmers are friendly folks and it can't hurt to ask. Worst that can happen is they say no, and you're no worse off than when you started. Tell him what a nice place he has and ask him if he has any hobbies, make a bit of small talk, and then explain to him why you'd like to use his place. If it's planting or harvesting season, he's chasing cows, or rain is threatening and he's trying to get work done, ask if you can call him later and discuss it with him (you'd be amazed how much time pressure is on a farmer when the work HAS to be done and the weather is threatening... he'll REALLY appreciate it that you value his time). Anyway, explain a little about rockets, the NAR safety code, make sure he knows you have insurance if you're a NAR member, how often you'd like to fly, etc. and if you plan on bringing anybody with you, etc. and stress that you'll not leave anything behind (fly with dogbarf or lettuce wadding and not trash the place up) and ask him to come out and watch or bring the kids or grandkids or whatever, offer to show him a demo flight or something if he's never heard of rocketry before and see what he says. Worst that can happen is he says 'NO' and you're no worse off than before. If you get a no keep looking; sooner or later you'll probably find someone fairly close that's willing to let you launch, especially if you throw in some incentives like cool beverages or offer to 'rent' the field for the afternoon for a small amount, or something like that. Explain to him why you'd like to use his field and how Uncle Sam won't let you use the park; farmers know ALL about Uncle Sam getting in the middle of something and making life hard.

Most landowners are mainly afraid of liability; this is where NAR insurance is a big plus. Knowing they are indemnified from damages if something happens is probably the largest concern folks will have. Be sure you always call before using the place, unless you have an 'understanding' with them and they don't care. Treat the place as your own and keep it clean, don't cut ruts or make a mess, stuff like that. Farmers/ranchers and landowners really hate guys just blowing across their property on four wheelers, cutting ruts or damaging crops, cutting or damaging fences, and doing stupid stuff like that which is not only dangerous but disrespectful. Most farm folks are 'old school' and respect and a good faith effort goes a LONG way with them. If it's a pasture you're looking at, make sure you close the gates and stuff-- chasing recalcitrant cows off the highway at inopportune times is NO fun!

It is getting harder to get access to parks and land, but you have to put some effort into it and do some research and some politicking and sooner or later you'll find a nice place to launch. Good luck! OL JR

 

[AKPilot]

Something interesting to note . . .

I was reading through AMA magazine this past week and there was an article on their new Park Flyer membership. Basically, it's for those that like to fly in parks, versus the typical glow or gas fuel 2-4 strokes.

Anyhow, in the article the author also noted that it's getting tougher and tougher for the r/c airplane guys to also find a place to fly. He noted that many clubs are having to move farther away from things (hence the start of the Park Flyer program).

So we're not the only ones under the crunch. Little comfort, in the ways of finding fields, however we're not alone in the quest.

Two final things to keep in mind:

1. My situation, above, came about because I asked the question if I could fly or not. While I was temporarily banned from flying, my effort and persistence paid off. From what I understand this was a-typical. Since then I've asked, via phone, for the same privileges in nearby cities and have also been met with the 'wall', we don't allow "rockets". Yes, I could go the same route with each city, but I don't reside there and it's very-very labor intensive.

So I'll give some sage advice, "If you ask the question (can I fly rockets in this park), be prepared to receive an answer (which you may not like)." Prior to my 'asking', a friend and I had been flyign for nearly a year with Park Rangers watching/talking to us all throughout. It only became an issue when I asked.

2. If you're really strapped for flying space, be prepared to travel to an established club. OR, and this was my second feather in the hat, get an Aviation Lawyer to support you in your quest to secure launch rights in a park. Fortunately, my aviation lawyer was also my representing Alderman at the time. He assisted me in my effort Pro-Bono, as part of his civic duties. Had he not been able to give me pro-bono support, I was prepared to hire an Aviation Attorney for an hour or two. The cost $150-$300 would've been a small price to pay - as my field (100+ acres) is only a 1/2 mile away from the house.

Had I not won, a genuine possibility, I would have had to travel to another family friendly club that's approximately 120 miles away. Or launch with a closer, non-family friendly club much closer. Would I have done it? You bet!