Space Shuttle and other rockets

[Giggles]

Hi everyone,
I am teaching a class about space and thought it would be fun to have scale rockets to show the kids, from the Mercury Redstone to the Space Shuttle and the Saturn V. Trouble is, they don't make them all the same scale! Well, the modeling companies do, but not the rocket companies. (I can see why, given the vast differences in size, but still I think it is important to give kids an appropriate sense of scale in learning.)

So my thought is to purchase a space shuttle kit, since it would be the toughest one to clone, and then make the Redstone and Saturn to match.
I like the Estes Space Shuttle #1284, but it is out of production, not to mention my budget. The Dr. Zooch Space Shuttle and Saturn V are both "ant scale," but that would mean making the Redstone as a micro. Could be done, but not very impressive for the class. Plus, the Dr. Zooch Space Shuttle involves a lot of paper construction, which is a pain in the butt in my experience.

The Estes model looks cooler. But since it isn't popping up on eBay, I was considering purchasing a plastic 1/144 scale model and converting it to fly as a rocket. Then, I would scratch build the other two. (Am I in over my head here?)

So my question is: What would you do?
Does anyone have any experience with plastic model conversions and could point me in the right direction?
Has anyone scratch-built any of these models before?
I am primarily concerned with making all three models (and possibly others in the future) the same scale, but I want them to fly, not just sit there on a shelf and collect dust. I appreciate any suggestions you might have.

Enthusiastic newbie,
Giggles

 

[JStarStar]

The closest thing to a "comprehensive set" of U.S. manned spacecraft all in the same scale is the AMT "Man In Space" 1/200 collection -- they can be found online starting for about $25 or so.

Although not included in the same series, 1/200 kits of the Space Shuttle can also be found online.

If you wanted, you could buy one of these sets and try to fly them all as PMC (plastic model conversion) models.

As you noted, modeling at 1/200 scale means the Mercury-Redstone is very small (MMX scale) and the Mercury-Atlas would fly on a 13mm motor.

The Gemini-Titan can fit 18mm tubes.

The Saturn 1B would probably fly on a D12.

The Saturn V is going to be a very heavy model -- you are probably talking a 2-3 motor cluster of D's or E's (if you want to stick to BP motors).

Pretty much all of these models will require some kind of clear plastic fin assembly (or "flame fins") to get them to fly.

Getting a plastic Shuttle model to fly in any manner is going to be quite a challenge.

I built a set of the AMT models as a kid (for display only, not flight) and they do look good. They do give you an idea how big the real vehicles were compared to each other.

Your alternative I guess is to pick out a commercially-available flying rocket kit of one vehicle as your "base model" and scratch-build all the rest to scale. That is going to be a lot, lot, LOT of work.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Hi everyone,
I am teaching a class about space and thought it would be fun to have scale rockets to show the kids, from the Mercury Redstone to the Space Shuttle and the Saturn V. Trouble is, they don't make them all the same scale! Well, the modeling companies do, but not the rocket companies. (I can see why, given the vast differences in size, but still I think it is important to give kids an appropriate sense of scale in learning.)

So my thought is to purchase a space shuttle kit, since it would be the toughest one to clone, and then make the Redstone and Saturn to match.
I like the Estes Space Shuttle #1284, but it is out of production, not to mention my budget. The Dr. Zooch Space Shuttle and Saturn V are both "ant scale," but that would mean making the Redstone as a micro. Could be done, but not very impressive for the class. Plus, the Dr. Zooch Space Shuttle involves a lot of paper construction, which is a pain in the butt in my experience.

The Estes model looks cooler. But since it isn't popping up on eBay, I was considering purchasing a plastic 1/144 scale model and converting it to fly as a rocket. Then, I would scratch build the other two. (Am I in over my head here?)

So my question is: What would you do?
Does anyone have any experience with plastic model conversions and could point me in the right direction?
Has anyone scratch-built any of these models before?
I am primarily concerned with making all three models (and possibly others in the future) the same scale, but I want them to fly, not just sit there on a shelf and collect dust. I appreciate any suggestions you might have.

Enthusiastic newbie,
Giggles

Check the other thread you started... I posted some info over there...

You're right in that the shuttle is the hardest to do... the papermodelling stuff isn't hard (if *I* can do it ANYBODY can-- just takes some time, patience, and the right tools (mainly smooth-jawed hemostat clamps!) I like the fact that the Dr. Zooch kits offer the Saturn I/IB (in nearly all its variations) and the Soyuz in the same scale, and it's a pretty nice scale size (using the BT-60 for the 260 inch S-IVB upper stage of the Saturn IB works out to about 1/158 scale...) Dr. Zooch's nice flying Saturn V uses the same BT-60 for the 396 inch S-IC/S-II stages, so it's a different scale. By happy accident, though, the BT-80 works out to be nearly in the same scale as the BT-60 S-IVB, so I'm currently in the middle of a scratchbuilt Saturn V using the BT-80 for the S-IC and S-II stages, and a BT-60 S-IVB stage, with LM fairing (balsa transition) and Apollo CSM parts I got from Wes. There's a build thread here... https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=25770

Now, depending on your budget, I noticed something else that's kinda nice... The Dr. Zooch "Freedom 7" Mercury Redstone is based on a BT-50 tube, and it's the same "ant scale" as the BT-60 based Mercury Atlas I just finished building... they work out to about 1/73 scale. Apogee rockets makes a 1/70 scale Saturn IB and a 1/70 Saturn V, but like you said, they're NOT cheap, plus they're meant to fly on HPR motors...

I mentioned in the other thread that a 1/100 Mercury Redstone would be about a BT-20 size, so it'd make a good candidate for 13 mm "mini-motors" or a small 18 mm motor. The hard part is that most of the tube sizes don't end up correlating well with commercially available tubes. Of course if you do papermodeling, this isn't too much of a problem-- paper models of most of these rockets exist and are easily adaptable to different scales by calculating the factor to enlarge or shrink the printed image to get it to the appropriate scale you're working with. My buddy gpoehlein here on the forum converts a lot of paper models to flying rockets, so it can be done successfully.

The main thing is picking a scale and going with it. Realize that if you do a PMC on a shuttle kit, you're about 99% positive you'll never make it glide... a plastic orbiter is just too heavy. If you want a gliding model, you'd have to do it in cardstock using Zooch shuttle methods (combination of balsa and cardstock). Of course if you just want it lifting off the pad and flying and returning under parachute, a non-glider version would probably be acceptable...

You'll have to do more research and figure out what scale you want to go with, what will get you the most "off the shelf" parts, and/or what PMC shuttle scale you want to build off of...

First thing I recommend-- buy a copy of "Rockets of the World" by Peter Alway, available from NARTS...

Later and good luck! OL JR

 

[FastCargo]

I was thinking about a similar project since I now have 6 unbuilt Estes Saturn Vs...so I'll have a spare nose piece for a 1/100 Saturn 1B....

I did some math already and came up with some the same conclusions Luke did. Most rockets in the early spaceflight series can be done to "close enough" scale with the body tubes available from companies like Semroc.

Of course, you can scale to just about any size you desire if you have decent math, Photoshop and paper modeling skills. I built and have often flown a 1/405th scale Saturn V on 13mm engines...it's a hoot! I wonder if I could build a flyable Saturn 1B that small...

But I still have my 1/77th scale Guillow's Space Shuttle to build into a boost glider, plus my Skylab booster, plus the Ares mission Saturn VB, and the Titan IIIE, Pershing II....

FC

 

[dtomko]

Neubauer Rocketry makes really nice 1/100 Mercury Redstone, Atlas, and Gemini Titan flying models, in scale with the Estes Saturn V and the clone-able Saturn 1B. They're pretty reasonable and available from Discount Rocketry.
That leaves the Shuttle. Tamiya makes a 1/100 Shuttle orbiter. It's plastic, but a possibility might be to vacuum form parts using this as the pattern mold. You'd have to figure out the math for BTs for the ET and SRBs.

Drew

 

[FastCargo]

Neubauer Rocketry makes really nice 1/100 Mercury Redstone, Atlas, and Gemini Titan flying models, in scale with the Estes Saturn V and the clone-able Saturn 1B. They're pretty reasonable and available from Discount Rocketry.

Anyone got any high res pics of these kits completed? Also, Discount Rocketry shows all of these as being sold out...

FC

 

[dtomko]

See this thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=8053

George Gassaway was working on a 1/110 stack with the Guillow's foam orbiter. I don't know what's become of the idea of kitting it. A bit small, but that's pretty close.

Drew

 

[dtomko]

Anyone got any high res pics of these kits completed? Also, Discount Rocketry shows all of these as being sold out...

FC

Didn't see the sold out button - sorry about that!

I think there were pics on Ye Olde Rocketry Forum a while back, at least of the Redstone. I've seen photos somewhere of the Gemini and Atlas, and I know they all had full body wraps and looked pretty good.

Here's the GT:
https://www.rocketreviews.com/gemini-titan-1100th---neubauer-rockets.html