Russian Plans, Possibly for War With Nato, in the Years Ahead

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Dotini

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"Estonia’s top spy says Russia is building more capability and that NATO countries would be the next target if Ukraine loses. But Kaupo Rosin, Kaupo who is the Director General of the Estonian Foreign Intelligence Service, told DW’s Tim Sebastian at the Munich Security Conference that Western policymakers could influence Moscow’s considerations through their choices."

 
:(Wars and rumors of wars is eternal.
Too true. As a boy growing up in the 50's, WW2 was massive in my universe of movies, TV and comic books. It deeply affected - for the worse - the lives of my father and uncles. As a highschooler and college student, Vietnam loomed huge on campus and in my personal destiny. Several of my best friends did not survive, either physically or mentally. 9/11/01 I will recall with a shudder to my dying day. As I was mounting my motorcycle in the morning darkness to ride to work at Boeing, I happened to look up, and saw the crescent Moon opposed to a star. I involuntarily shuddered at the Islamic symbolism. When I arrived at work, I saw the 1st tower hit on my desk computer screen. I used to think of war as a normal, responsible and healthy thing to do for the world's greatest nation. Now I'm not so sure as I used to be.
 
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. I used to think of war as a normal, responsible and healthy thing to do for the world's greatest nation. Now I'm not so sure as I used to be.
The world is still comprised of barbaric primitive people, the only advancement that we've really made is in technology, but humans continue to have endless wars, destruction, disease, poverty, starvation, torture, slavery, and a hierarchy which leaves just a few people controlling the lives of billions. There are certain countries in the world which have never been involved in a war as they are civilized, peaceful people who respect others and are not concerned and dominating anybody.
America could be that way too just as General Smedley Butler of World War 1 fame, the most highly decorated marine General who came back from the war and wrote a book called 'War is a racket ", in which he described two main points that America should do;
#1- we should never go beyond 500 mi outside of our borders as all the things that happen on the other side of the planet is none of our business and we should not be the big bullies. A lot of the wars have been going on for centuries over land and religion and do not concern us.
#2- if we do think we need to go outside of our 500 mi then everybody on Capitol Hill needs to sign an agreement that their immediate families will be the first people sent to the front lines.
These two things would have saved trillions of dollars and many thousands of lives needlessly wasted. Just think of Vietnam in Afghanistan as both of those places within two weeks after we left ,resumed to be taken back over, just as it was before we got there.
And America is definitely not the greatest country in the world:

Imagine if the US had a president like this who actually sees the flaws of US and actually does something about it.
 
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"Estonia’s top spy says Russia is building more capability and that NATO countries would be the next target if Ukraine loses.
Russia needs to learn from their experience in Ukraine and realize they don't have the horsepower to do that. For awhile it seemed that Russia was demonstrating how very inept they were and some little country like Ecuador could take them on.
 
Russia needs to learn from their experience in Ukraine and realize they don't have the horsepower to do that. For awhile it seemed that Russia was demonstrating how very inept they were and some little country like Ecuador could take them on.
Yes, in our own ways, many of us are slow learners. My military expertise doesn't extend much past Age of Empires II and the American History Channel, so I will mainly try to pay attention and learn. Here is (apparently) the latest thinking in Europe, albeit not accounting for propaganda and wishful thinking:

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-allies-gaming-world-us-185828166.html

They seem to think we have a 5 to 7 year window to figure this out.
 
Fund this statement:
Russia's macroeconomic performance is suffering due to its war and the impact of the United States and our partners' sanctions and economic measures. Russians are voting with their feet and leaving the country. Dec 14, 2023
 
Imagine if the US had a president like this who actually sees the flaws of US and actually does something about it.
Problem with that is if they didn't have to scare you by saying how bad the other person is and didn't have unfulfilled promises they can throw around, there wouldn't be a reason to elect them anymore. It's basic politics: promise something but give just enough to keep people satisfied so they have to vote for you again in hopes of getting the rest of that promise fulfilled.
 
Problem with that is if they didn't have to scare you by saying how bad the other person is and didn't have unfulfilled promises they can throw around, there wouldn't be a reason to elect them anymore. It's basic politics: promise something but give just enough to keep people satisfied so they have to vote for you again in hopes of getting the rest of that promise fulfilled.
Perfect assessment. :bravo:
 
Please stop believing anything anyone in government says.
There is a saying in the military that, if you substitute the word "recruiter" and replace it with "politician" remains perfectly true.

QUESTION: How can you tell that a politician is lying?
.
.
.
.
.

ANSWER: Their lips are moving,
 
Please stop believing anything anyone in government says.
The amount of lying and corruption in most governments around the world is very depressing. There really isn't much hope for humanity with leaders that we have in place. All you have to do is look at the evening news for confirmation of that.
 
The amount of lying and corruption in most governments around the world is very depressing. There really isn't much hope for humanity with leaders that we have in place. All you have to do is look at the evening news for confirmation of that.
To be fair, we definitely deal with corruption but it is nothing like the corruption in some nations. For example Nicaragua over the last couple of years has shifted from a social democracy and one of the safest countries in Central America to being an authoritarian regime. Ecuador went from a homicide rate of 5 per 100K to 46 per 100K dealing with their ongoing war on drugs. Then of course we have Russia and its delusions of grandeur trying to revive the Soviet Union. That's not to say the same couldn't happen in the US or Canada or Europe, but at least for the time being there is enough transparency that we know what we are dealing with and have the ability to intervene to some extent. As a whole corruption in the world has significantly decreased as people are able to document every waking moment with phones and share it to the entire world in seconds, but because there is so much coverage of it, it seems like it's more rampant when in reality we just know about it now.
 
Macron's noble plan to send NATO troops to Ukraine has been rebuked by his NATO and EU partners.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...roops-to-ukraine-after-nato-membership-agreed

Snippets:

Emmanuel Macron has faced criticism from France’s Nato and EU partners and a warning of conflict from Russia after he suggested it might be necessary to send ground troops to Ukraine.

After a high-level meeting in Paris of mainly European partners to discuss what urgent steps could be taken to shore up Ukraine in the wake of Russia’s recent frontline advances, the French president told a press conference he did not rule out sending troops.

He said he accepted no consensus existed for the plan, but in a taboo-breaking move he said nothing should be ruled out to achieve the defeat of Russia and the maintenance of security in Europe. “Today there is no consensus about sending ground troops in an official way, standing up for it and taking responsibility for it,” he said.

Allies were quick to rule out sending combat troops to Ukraine. White House national security council spokesperson Adrienne Watson said: “President Biden has been clear that the US will not send troops to fight in Ukraine,” while the Kremlin warned the appearance of Nato troops in Ukraine would make a direct confrontation with Russia inevitable.

Nato also announced on Tuesday afternoon that there were “no plans for Nato combat troops” in Ukraine. Poland’s prime minister, Donald Tusk, rejected the idea, as did Downing Street.

-------------------------------

The underlying problem is that European leaders have discovered they have not been able to direct an acceleration in arms manufacturing in Europe, and point to peacetime restrictions slowing progress such as planning permission needed to expand production lines. Ukrainian officials have said they require a minimum of nearly 200,000 shells a month, but Europe’s collective output remains only about 50,000 a month, according to an Estonian intelligence analysis – only some of which now go to Ukraine.

Macron did find an ally in Gabrielius Landsbergis, the Lithuanian foreign minister. “Europe’s fate is being decided on the battlefields of Ukraine. Times like these require political leadership, ambition and courage to think out of the box,” he said.
 
Macron's noble plan to send NATO troops to Ukraine has been rebuked by his NATO and EU partners.
That assumes there was a plan in the first place. All Macron said was that sending troops to Ukraine shouldn't be ruled out. That's not the same thing as actually planning to send troops.

Personally, I'm still questioning whether it might be more moral to send in troops with strict orders to stay within the territory of Ukraine to wipe out the Russian army and end the war quickly, rather than drawing out the suffering.
 
That assumes there was a plan in the first place. All Macron said was that sending troops to Ukraine shouldn't be ruled out. That's not the same thing as actually planning to send troops.

Personally, I'm still questioning whether it might be more moral to send in troops with strict orders to stay within the territory of Ukraine to wipe out the Russian army and end the war quickly, rather than drawing out the suffering.
It seems to me like that would certainly lead to nuclear weapons, so that would be a very bad idea. Also what makes you think that it would be “quick” wars are never as quick as you think they would be.
 
It seems to me like that would certainly lead to nuclear weapons, so that would be a very bad idea. Also what makes you think that it would be “quick” wars are never as quick as you think they would be.
That's pretty much the argument against, but I'm not 100% convinced Russia would resort to nukes, knowing that they would be annihilated as well, especially if the troops were strictly ordered to stay in Ukraine and absolutely not to cross into Russia proper.

I think it would be quick in this case because the Russian army has demonstrated itself to be a paper bear over the past few years, with low-quality troops and ill-maintained equipment. I am confident that NATO, and the US in particular, would annihilate the Russian army in a direct confrontation. Though you are right that I can't be 100% certain of that.

Anyway, I'm not saying I am certain direct involvement is the best option. Maybe our leaders know things we don't, or maybe there's something public out there that I don't know. I'm just saying I'm questioning it.
 
You don't seem to understand how dire the situation is. Read this article by Newsweek:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-frontline-collapsing-russia-war-losses-1874210
That would be easier to take at face value except for two things:
1) Newsweek has nothing resembling its reputation from 10-20 years ago.
2) You spend your days here posting one link or video after another impersonating Henny Penny. How do we distinguish this situation from the previous ones? The sky can't be falling every single day.

Don't misunderstand me - it's a horrific situation and I strongly support continuing to aid Ukraine. But you're the same person that has repeatedly posted pro Russian videos in the past. It's hard to take much of any of it seriously anymore.
 
You don't seem to understand how dire the situation is. Read this article by Newsweek:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-frontline-collapsing-russia-war-losses-asm1874210
Funny how the headline uses the word "collapse ", but the article says that Russian gains have been "incremental." Yes, Russia captured Adiivika, but they lost 50,000 troops in four weeks doing it, which is equivalent to how many they lost in Afghanistan in ten years, and nearly equal to US losses over 20 years in Vietnam. They exploit Ukrainian weaknesses by using mass human wave meat assaults.

At the same time, they've lost 10 aircraft in 10 days, representing at least half of a year's production (if they cansource parts) and one (or was it two) more AWACS airplanes that they can't replace at all which now opens other aircraft to missile attacks with zero warning.

Oh, and for days at a time the entire Black Sea fleet stays in port.

Things are not as one-sided as some folks might suggest.
 
And, more to the original topic, how likely is it, like Europe has been doing for two years, that Macron's statement was a trial balloon to openly introduce a possibility that will be discussed in more depth later, and which will press the entire coalition, including the US, to provide Ukraine with more material support?

My guess is that this is 100 percent likely and that Macron is a calculating politician and not the fool some folks might make him out to be.
 
And, more to the original topic, how likely is it, like Europe has been doing for two years, that Macron's statement was a trial balloon to openly introduce a possibility that will be discussed in more depth later, and which will press the entire coalition, including the US, to provide Ukraine with more material support?

My guess is that this is 100 percent likely and that Macron is a calculating politician and not the fool some folks might make him out to be.
Since, as we now know, Ukraine is in very deep trouble, it is obviously necessary for NATO to come to the rescue. That much you have right. If we do not, and Ukraine goes down, our credibility is worthless, shot forever.
 
Since, as we now know, Ukraine is in very deep trouble, it is obviously necessary for NATO to come to the rescue. That much you have right. If we do not, and Ukraine goes down, our credibility is worthless, shot forever.
No, the West is not going to risk the world over Ukraine, there is no political support for that. The west's strategy was never for Ukraine to win, it was to put as much pain on Russia as possible and degrade its military. There are two possible outcomes:
1). Ukraine sues for peace and concedes occupied territory and agrees to kick the CIA and all other American and Nato assets out of the country.
2). Direct war of the US and Russia.
No one is going to risk #2.
 
That's pretty much the argument against, but I'm not 100% convinced Russia would resort to nukes, knowing that they would be annihilated as well, especially if the troops were strictly ordered to stay in Ukraine and absolutely not to cross into Russia proper.
There is credible information that says Russia's nuclear force is a shell of what it once was and that a good portion of their inventory is non-functioning or not functioning properly. It takes a lot of effort and money to maintain a fully capable and functioning nuclear force. Of course that doesn't negate the fact that it only takes "one good one" to start the exchange. But it would tip their hand on the possibility of future uses. I'm confident western countries wouldn't engage that risk by putting troops on the ground without a lot of forethought.
Anyway, I'm not saying I am certain direct involvement is the best option. Maybe our leaders know things we don't, or maybe there's something public out there that I don't know. I'm just saying I'm questioning it.
One thought to consider is the US political machine does not want Russia or Ukraine to "win". Clearly for different reasons but a prolonged conflict is beneficial to western geopolitical interest. In very basic terms it comes down to military support. By supporting Ukraine, the west gets to defeat Russia without firing a shot or putting troops in harm's way. When Ukraine struggles to win, it provides an opportunity to renew the military industrial complex for a good cause. We've already seen where US politicians have said; "Come on man, that Ukraine funding will be spent right in your state" (that's a paraphrase). It's an interesting thought exercise for sure.
 
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Since, as we now know, Ukraine is in very deep trouble, it is obviously necessary for NATO to come to the rescue. That much you have right. If we do not, and Ukraine goes down, our credibility is worthless, shot forever.
Not really. It comes down to money. The US economy is roughly 40% bigger than the next country in line (China) and it's bigger than all of Europe combined. It takes a lot of years to overcome that math. Even in the event of a catastrophic global meltdown, the US has the infrastructure to withstand most issues. Sullied credibility only last until the next handout, certainly not "forever".
 
There are two possible outcomes:
1). Ukraine sues for peace and concedes occupied territory and agrees to kick the CIA and all other American and Nato assets out of the country.
2). Direct war of the US and Russia.
No one is going to risk #2.
However comforting for some, I for one cannot conceive of your outcome #1 being even a remote possibility, given Russia's long-stated aims of their "SMO", these being demilitarization, denazification and the perpetual neutrality of Ukraine. In the best case, they could lose their military and their ardent nationalists, but how could the remainder of Ukraine be reliably guaranteed to remain permanently neutral, other than it be entirely removed from the map?
 
There is credible information that says Russia's nuclear force is a shell of what it once was and that a good portion of their inventory is non-functioning or not functioning properly. It takes a lot of effort and money to maintain a fully capable and functioning nuclear force. Of course that doesn't negate the fact that it only takes "one good one" to start the exchange. But it would tip their hand on the possibility of future uses.
I was actually going to say that, it makes sense to me, they haven’t had anyone checking on them since the USSR collapsed. I bet 50% would fall somewhere. but 50% of the world’s largest arsenal is still game over for us.
 
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It takes a lot of effort and money to maintain a fully capable and functioning nuclear force.
Yep, tritium for H-bombs is expensive and has a half-life of only 12 years, so it needs to be refreshed every so often. It wouldn't surprise me if most of Russia's bombs were nonfunctional. Still, it also wouldn't surprise me if at least a few dozen to a few hundred of their bombs have actually been properly maintained.
 
When I was growing up next-door to Dyess AFB in Texas, my school held routine "duck and cover" drills for nuclear attack. Fear of Russia was rampant, especially after Sputnik. Some local homeowners constructed rudimentary bomb shelters in their backyards. Some were volunteers in the Civilian Air Patrol. After moving to Seattle in 1961, I almost immediately became aware of the very large underground nuke shelter buried under I-5 near my home. All these measures now seem quaint, obsolete, and terminated in the US. But Google informs me every Russian citizen has access to shelters built into every public building.
 
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