Playin' With Fire - Flight Report

[tuxxi]

Perhaps a redesign with larger fins and a little more length is in order?

Alex designed this rocket with an upper bound on velocity in mind. He did not design for over Mach 3, let alone ~3.2. The motor was just too fast for what Alex had designed. We believe that, had the motor performed as intended, PWF would probably still be in one piece.

 

[BLKKROW]

Alex gives me rocket envy. That is all...

Well I have to say this is one sick rocket, watching it fly off the pad was magically it was so fast. The carbon fiber work on this rocket and many others is top notch and the fincan on this rocket can prove that.

I am excited for the next rocket Alex will build.

 

[cherokeej]

Its pretty lame that you guys are speculating about what happened and implying Manny did something wrong. I had a conversation with Manny prior to launch about the motor details and we all agreed, a priori, that the motor would crank and I did a back of the envelope check of Manny's sims and hardware margins and they all checked out.

Manny and Alex both did an awesome job on this project.

No one said they didn't do an awesome job. I take nothing away from the accomplishments of either of these two fine young gentlemen. They can both hold their heads high and stand proud.


But speculate?

Excuse me, but I didn't "speculate" on anything. Someone else posted that what was supposed to be somewhere in the M2K range went M4K on 'em. That tells me there's a PROBLEM. I don't have the data to confirm whether that problem is in the mixing, the assembly, or the prediction, but if it did that, there IS a problem somewhere.

They need to figure out where the problem was, and fix it. Cuz it's not supposed to happen that way.

And yes. Been into Rx since Y2K. Know my way around a copy of BurnSim and a KitchenAide. So I AM qualified to ask the question...

Why did the motor do that?

 

[prophecy]

No one said they didn't do an awesome job. I take nothing away from the accomplishments of either of these two fine young gentlemen. They can both hold their heads high and stand proud.


But speculate?

Excuse me, but I didn't "speculate" on anything. Someone else posted that what was supposed to be somewhere in the M2K range went M4K on 'em. That tells me there's a PROBLEM. I don't have the data to confirm whether that problem is in the mixing, the assembly, or the prediction, but if it did that, there IS a problem somewhere.

They need to figure out where the problem was, and fix it. Cuz it's not supposed to happen that way.

And yes. Been into Rx since Y2K. Know my way around a copy of BurnSim and a KitchenAide. So I AM qualified to ask the question...

Why did the motor do that?

-High pressure
-Mass flux

 

[Aksrockets]

Bummer the rocket didn't come back in one piece, but it was a killer boost. Here are my pics. I only managed to catch the rocket in one picture...

-Todd

View attachment 179916 View attachment 179917

Amazing pic Todd! Pleasure meeting you and Ryan out there.

Awesome, the length of the flame is just about the same as the rocket. Hm, you can already see a sort of angle of attack right at take off. Great pictures Todd. Alex sorry to hear about your rocket. Seeing other posts your main airframe and fin can survived? Hopefully you can rebuild this beautiful bird.

Angle of attack or launch angle?


Thanks for the kind words guys! I'm not really discouraged by this failure at all. I don't think Manny should have any bit of blame it what happened. We both had no idea the motor would preform as it would. All that's left to do now is move on and improve on that design. We're talking about making Aeronaut a yearly thing for us young guys, so I'll get plenty of opportunities to try again.

Alex

 

[Aksrockets]

Will there be a PWF rev 2.0?

Funny you should ask....



Alex

 

[cherokeej]

-High pressure
-Mass flux

OK.

Apologies for asking a question.

Smart people learn from their mistakes, and do not repeat them.

Wise people learn from others mistakes, and do not repeat them.

Have a nice day.

 

[CarVac]

Funny you should ask....

View attachment 180120

Alex

What are the differences? Larger fins for stability?

 

[Aksrockets]

What are the differences? Larger fins for stability?

One big difference. Hint hint.



Alex

 

[nute]

Is that a Flying Motor Case I see?

BTW, congrats on the fin can surviving. that was an incredible flight, I'm sorry to hear about the failure, but it looks like Manny built an incredible motor, and you built an equally incredible rocket. I will be looking forward to information on whatever comes next!

Nate

 

[conman13]

Sorry about the rocket Alex. But think of it this way now you know that your fin can can handle Mach 3+ so all you have to do is make the rest of the rocket as strong to handle manny's M4000 and you will be able to successfully be able to faster and higher then you were going to go before.

 

[Jmhepworth]

Alex, sometimes we win, and sometimes we learn (borrowed from John Maxwell). This was your turn to learn. May you never quit learning.

Joe.


Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

 

[BLKKROW]

I must be dumb I dont get the hint...

 

[conman13]

I must be dumb I dont get the hint...

Fins are airfoiled???

 

[Eat, sleep, and Fly]

It is carbon cased. The rocket is the motor. ( I think )

 

[Aksrockets]

It is carbon cased. The rocket is the motor. ( I think )

Bingo!

Alex

 

[Aksrockets]

Bryce C (aka bandman444) got incredible photos of the entire sequence.

https://flic.kr/p/ojgEvJ

Click there ^ and flip through those pics. He has his photos set so I can't link to them.

Alex

 

[JimJarvis50]

Bingo!

Alex

If you're like me, you probably had this designed in your head before you were halfway home. Sorry for your loss.

Jim

 

[markkoelsch]

Alex designed this rocket with an upper bound on velocity in mind. He did not design for over Mach 3, let alone ~3.2. The motor was just too fast for what Alex had designed. We believe that, had the motor performed as intended, PWF would probably still be in one piece.

That is my point- designing for this requires a little more care when flying motors of various extremes. You do not want to be flying on the margins so to speak. You need to leave some room for error.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

 

[WoShuGui]

Aksrockets, Thank you for this awesome and informative thread. Sorry about the shred; that was one wicked right hand turn, but it looks to me like a great end to a beginning. :clap:

 

[Coop]

I am sorry to learn of the shred. But I've got nothing but respect for you for even attempting this. I wouldn't put my skills to a MD flight.

Thank you for sharing the experience--I have learned from it.


Later!

--Coop

 

[blackjack2564]

Manny stopped by on the way & assembled the motor here. Great looking grains, no voids, nada on any of them.

I thought for sure you had a winning combo, nice motor, outstanding build, but alas......Forest Gumo said it all.......

$hit happens! Been there, done that. At least you guys took it in stride and are planning the next adventure.

Good luck with the next one!

 

[mannyskid]

I typed up a little report on the motor I made for this rocket. For those of you interested, you can find it here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?68351-Alex-s-Motor&p=741725#post741725

 

[REK]

I typed up a little report on the motor I made for this rocket. For those of you interested, you can find it here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?68351-Alex-s-Motor&p=741725#post741725

Cant access it, is it private?

 

[Rocketjunkie]

It's in the research section. You need to be Tripoli L2 and request access.

 

[CarVac]

It's in the research section. You need to be Tripoli L2 and request access.

You only need L1, in either NAR or Tripoli. But you have to be a senior member.

 

[blackbrandt]

Can you paste it and delete numbers?

 

[troj]

Can you paste it and delete numbers?

No. It gets into processing technique, as well, and thus belongs where he put it. Manny did the right thing.

-Kevin

 

[Aksrockets]

Well, I didn't do this by myself so I've got a few "thank-you"s to hand out.

HUGE Thank you to Manny Ballestero.
If someone would have told 15 year old Alex that he'd be flying M motors in 2 years he'd have called you crazy. Just today I came accost my old "rocket notebook" from when I was a recent L1. I had a list, detailing my what rockets I would build until I was 18 so I would be well prepared to fly a J motor. The idea that Id have the financial means or even the building skills to fly an L2 (let alone L3) motor was crazy. Thanks to the amazing people that helped me along the way, Ive had the opportunity to fast-track those goals and get to where I am today. To be honest, its not a huge deal disappointment that it was unstable, Im just happy to have the opportunity to even work with something this large and I've got to thank Manny for that. Manny, if you ever need some CF, stuff you know who to talk to! I owe ya one.

Another big thanks to Mason Hazzard.
You did the part of building that I hate the most! Those annoying AV bays. I loved your glue-less 2 sled design and got lots of compliments on it. No doubt I had the cleanest AV bay on the Playa. I might have to steal that design for next years project. Thanks for putting all that time and effort into this! Sorry It never saw much use. Enjoy those fins and good luck with the L3 project!

Thanks to Ryan Catanesi!
For lots of things throughout this build. For the pad video, for help with the redesign and for being a good guy to bounce ideas off of. Sorry about turning your transmitter into confetti and thanks for then refusing to let me pay you! I'd be one rocket less without that thing. Let me know if you need any carbon stuff! Its on me!

Also thanks to:
My "pad crew". The guys who helped me get the rocket on the tower. Manny, Joel, Ryan, Aidan, Spencer.
The guys out taking photos: Bryce Chanes, Todd Harrison, and Joel Lynch. Those are some amazing photos. Im so glad this flight was so well documented.
You TRF guys for all the kind words and support!

Cant wait until next year.

Alex Laraway

 

[AlnessW]

Thanks for the closing words, Alex! Hope I'll maybe get to shake your hand next year.
I'm coming down with a case of "playa fever" myself - looks like less than 6 weeks until BALLS!