New to rocketry, jumping right in - have many questions

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PoweredBySoy

PoweredBySoy

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I recently got the bug to try rocketry. I've spent the past week reading articles and watching videos, and I think I have a general gameplan to get started. Although there is still a fair amount that confuses me.

LPR doesn't interest me. I want to go loud and fast, and for multiple reasons I've decided to go with the Madcow ARCAS for my first rocket. Mostly, I think it's a beautiful looking rocket and I love the history behind it.

Right now the plan is to build the rocket, do a few flights on "low power" G motors, and then go for my L1 cert on an H. For this I'm leaning towards the Cesaroni brand, since for whatever reason their motor systems seem to make the most sense to me. What I'd like to do is to try and 'future proof' the rocket by building it with a 38mm 3-grain case, and then use spacers for the time being. Initial flights will be on 1-grain, cert and following flights on 2-grain, and then if I'm feeling saucy I can up to 3-grain motors.
I'm still trying to learn the specifics of motors and what I'd need, but that's the general plan at least.

Do I need an altimiter? I assume I'll be using the ejection charge from the motor for chute deployment - but I'd still love to have some telemetry numbers from the flight that I could load to a computer. Would an altimiter give that to me?

I'm also very intrigued with getting on-board video of flights - although I'm not finding much info about it. Would that even be possible with the ARCAS? I'm not sure if the ARCAS has an e-bay or not.

I know it says the ARCAS is dual-deploy capable, but I doubt I'd be wanting to take that on for my first build.

I've started reaching out to my local NAR group, and plan on attending their next launch party in a couple weeks.


Anyways, let me know if you have an comments or thoughts... or if I'm completely off base.
Thanks!
 
The Arcas is a great L1 kit, and will do L2 (5 grain motors) with a little nose weight. If you have plans to go to L2, you may want to buy a CTI 38mm starter set, which will cover you from 1-grain to 6-grain motors. That gives you lots of flexibility on what to fly. If I were going to do it again, I would definitely want to E-bay upgrade to the Arcas. You don't necessarily need to build it in now, but you may well want it later for dual deploy flights. The coupler where the E-bay goes would be a good spot for a camera, or you can just hang small cameras on the outside of the rocket. Others can give you better advice about cameras than I can.

If you're using motor ejection, you won't need a separate altimeter. There are lots of choices for recording altimeters. Many deployment altimeters also record, so you can buy one piece of hardware for both. If you are going for higher flights, you will probably want to do dual deployment either controlled by altimeter or a Chute Release.

I'll take your last paragraph to give a piece of advice--you're going pretty fast. That's not necessarily bad, but you'll learn an awful lot on your first rocket. Depending on how much you've worked with epoxy before, that might just be some layout stuff, or it might be really ugly cosmetic stuff. It would be a shame to slap your forehead every time you look at your L1 (or L2) rocket. You might want to build a smaller and cheaper kit (eg Estes PS2) to practice skills. If not, practice on scrap material first until you can make good fillets. Definitely read up on bonding to fiberglass rockets.
 
not knowing your building history...my normal advice to newcomers and returning rocketeers, is to build 1 or 2 low power birds to get a feel for the basic techniques /refresh the building skills using inexpensive models. then too there is this to say about lpr, when building your own designs it is safer and cheaper to test a design using a lpr rocket first. that said, welcome to the forum, good luck with whatever you decide to build.
Rex
 
Welcome to the insanity - LOL.
I'll never forget my first G flight...after years of LPR with black powder motors, that a first composite was a thrill.
You'll enjoy it...there is a lot of ground to cover in this hobby and it just keeps getting better, with the electronics/technology.

Arcas looks like a classic...Not sure how many versions of the Arcas Madcow has...the 2.6 " dia. looks like the airframe would have to be modified (split in two somewhere midway) to do traditional dual deploy...of course Jolly Logic chute releases can make just about most rockets dual deploy now, depending on chute size.
https://www.madcowrocketry.com/content/pdf/arcas.pdf
 
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I get that LPR is underwhelming to some people, myself included. But lacking any experience with rocketry, I would suggest building and launching at least one MPR first. Estes PSII kits are pretty inexpensive and straightforward to build but can fly E-F-G motors, making them a pretty impressive introduction to the sport without getting too crazy right out of the gate.

I flew a bunch of LPR as a teenager but when I got back into it 20+ years later, I started with a few of those MPR kits. I still fly them and they're a lot of fun. Good bang-for-the-buck, and a good sanity check when getting into (or back into) rocketry.

I'm a big fan of CTI and have 3-grain and 6-grain cases, spacers, etc. in 29mm, 38mm, and 54mm. Their hardware allows for a huge range of reloads in all the propellant types. I think CTI is a good investment, although I'd probably start with 29mm and go from there.

Altimeters are great, and I love my Jolly Logic Altimeter 3. It's tiny, it records all kinds of valuable information, it generates nice graphs, and it connects directly with your smartphone. Do you NEED it? No. Is it a fun and useful thing to have? Definitely.

IMHO I think if I was in your position, I would start with at most an Estes Ascender, launch it on an F motor (BP or AP), and if all went well go from there. No altimeter, no DD, no staging, just a basic MPR launch to show you know the basics. Walk before you run and all.
 
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Low power rockets are cheaper to buy, cheaper to fly and cheaper to crash and replace. Start small an work your way up is my advice. Crashing the big stuff is expensive, so crash the little ones until you know what you are doing.
 
boatgeek said:
If you have plans to go to L2, you may want to buy a CTI 38mm starter set, which will cover you from 1-grain to 6-grain motors. That gives you lots of flexibility on what to fly.
Click to expand...

I did see those starter kits. As of right now I'm trying to limit my goals to L1, and just making a rocket that flies. I figure if/when I make L1, I'll reassess the hobby, and if I'm still wanting to continue and go bigger I'll probably make a separate L2 rocket.

boatgeek said:
Others can give you better advice about cameras than I can.
Click to expand...

I found this guy on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FTRCBPY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Most camera advice I've found is over 5 years old, so I'm thinking this little guy would be more modern. I could mount the 'brain' in the payload somewhere, and then run the external camera out to the exterior. It looks extremely small. I'm not keen on mounting a large key fob camera (and hood) to the outside of the airframe.

Still... the camera would come later, for sure. I have other things to worry about first.

boatgeek said:
I'll take your last paragraph to give a piece of advice--you're going pretty fast. ..... Definitely read up on bonding to fiberglass rockets.
Click to expand...

I know, I know. I think I could do it though - I'm pretty handy, have lots of tools, and disposable income to burn. That's not to say I won't make mistakes though. I watched that whole Apogee series on building the Level 2. I can do all of that. The most confusing part was the e-bay and dual-deploy electronics, which I'm not sure I'd have to deal with for this build.
 
Zeus-cat said:
Low power rockets are cheaper to buy, cheaper to fly and cheaper to crash and replace. Start small an work your way up is my advice. Crashing the big stuff is expensive, so crash the little ones until you know what you are doing.
Click to expand...

This. Last week I crashed my LOC Warlock into a corn field with my Altimeter 3, JLCR, CTI 54mm 3G and fancy chute, and lost over $500 just like *that*. And I allegedly know what I'm doing.

Then there's the safety thing, which is first and foremost to all of this. Personally if I was RSO'ing (and I have yet to do that) and someone new showed up with an Estes and a C motor I wouldn't think much about allowing it. But if someone came up with a 3 pound rocket and a G motor and declared it was their first ever rocket flight, I would be going over the construction and assembly with a fine-toothed comb.
 
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muddymooose said:
I get that LPR is underwhelming to some people, myself included. But lacking any experience with rocketry, I would suggest building and launching at least one MPR first.
Click to expand...

I mean, technically, would the ARCAS with a G motor be MPR? I would agree it's probably diving into the deep end though.

muddymooose said:
I'm a big fan of CTI and have 3-grain and 6-grain cases, spacers, etc. in 29mm, 38mm, and 54mm. Their hardware allows for a huge range of reloads in all the propellant types.
Click to expand...

That's kind of what I thought too. Seems like a really good system. Easy to understand, lots of flexibilty, reloads just screw in, etc.... At least that's how I understand it. I'm still trying to figure out the Aerotech stuff.

muddymooose said:
No altimeter, no DD, no staging, just a basic MPR launch to show you know the basics. Walk before you run and all.
Click to expand...

That's how I'm approaching this ARCAS build at first. The electronics, etc. is all just fluff for later. I doubt I'll even paint it until I get a successful launch.
 
A 2 pound rocket on a G is deep in MPR territory. It's approaching HPR. And I get that's where you want to start, but if you do start there maybe expect some scrutiny.

If this was your first flight I would expect the RSO to question your knowledge of materials, adhesives, motor choice, delay, altitude estimate, chute size, estimated recovery speed, etc. to get a reasonable expectation that you know what you're doing. If you can nail all that then more power to you. But from a safety standpoint, please be aware that the best among us can answer all those questions in detail and have 20 years of experience and still crash 10 pounds of rocket under a K motor 6 feet into the dirt.
 
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rharshberger said:
Thats 2 pounds as advertised, few rockets make it under the minimum advertised weight, Moose probably has it about right at 3lbs, Im just sayin' :)
Click to expand...

I did my L1 on the 2.6" ACRAS from Madcow. I flew it on an Aerotech H220R. The finished weight was 3.3 pounds. I built it entirely (fillets and all) with JB weld. Worked the first time. I agree with all those who are saying to start with MPR first. Build something small and cheap first and fly it a few times before you jump into the big stuff. This hobby can have quite the learning curve, and you can learn things the hard way, loosing expensive rockets. Or the easy way, loosing cheap rockets. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to jump right in, but take your time with it and learn the basics before you get into the big stuff. Learn from those at the clubs near you, talk to people, look at how they built their rockets. Ask questions as to why they are doing things a certain way. This is how I learned, and am still learning :)
 
I remember starting out and thinking the same way.

I ended up building many LPR birds due to financial constraints and I’ll tell you, I’m glad that I did.

The build processes and the “why for’s” are much easier and less hassle to learn/screw up on a $30 LPR.

I also now have a much greater appreciation for the actual impacts of the Newton count doubling as you jump motor impulse classes...

I’m healthily aware now of just how the increase in Newton’s squares the increase in build requirements, materials and technique.
 
I agree with others that the fiberglass rocket you selected, even though listed as two pounds is going to build heavy and be a bit much for G motors. Madcow tends to list weights as bare fiberglass parts with no adhesives, recovery gear or motor hardware included. Start smaller or with paper.

Also it hasn’t been specifically addressed yet and maybe you just worded it odd or I’m reading it odd. You don’t build it for a specific case. The case is not permanently attached. You build it for a specific maximum motor diameter. In your case you are saying 38mm. The motor mount tube is glued in, the cases are removable.

When I started I did way more reading than building. Months worth scouring this forum. If you have decent critical thinking skills you will learn who to pattern your build skills after. CJ’s build threads are invaluable.

When I did take the plunge on a kit it was the paper version of the 2.6” DX3 from Madcow. I ordered an extra payload tube and the alt bay kit. I built it stock and with the extra parts giving me the option to fly it DD with a Stratologer sl100. It was built light with 30min epoxy and flew G flights, my L1 on a H175, and several other H flights before being retired and as everyone here will tell you, before other kits were purchased and taking its place. The hobby is addictive and like potato chips, you won’t have just one.

If you just want to build a rocket that flies, you could always build an Aerotech. You could cert on a baby H with many of their kits.
 
I jumped straight onto a G in a 1lb bird. It was a miracle I got it back. I then went and flew some LPR stuff here and there before I came back to my L1.

I'm not saying you have to do that, but if I were to give advice it would be to start out on the Estes Star Orbiter with BP E's / F's.
 
I forgot to mention, go to a few local launches. Talk to folks and watch them prep and launch. Big help.
 
Thank you all for the feedback. I may relent and look into a smaller motor for the first build.


muddymooose said:
A 2 pound rocket on a G is deep in MPR territory.

..... delay, altitude estimate....
Click to expand...

Regarding this, what is the best way to calculate altitude and delay?? Having done a fair amount of research on Apogee, all I'm really hearing is "use Rocksim, buy Rocksim, use Rocksim..."

Surely there's another method. Or is Rocksim really the no-brainer and everybody is using it? I feel like there would be a user database somewhere with rockets, weight, motor used, and altitude attained.... Or is it just experience and intuition?

FalconRocketry said:
I built it entirely (fillets and all) with JB weld. Worked the first time.
Click to expand...

I've chosen GorillaWeld 2-part epoxy and Apoxie Sculpt for the fillets.
 
Since you already said that you reached to the local NAR group and are planning to go to a launch, I think you will learn a lot. Talk to the leadership, talk to other fliers, watch, learn.

I'm sure it's easy to see why so many people are telling you to start with LPR, and this is good advice. It would be like your son coming to you on the eve of getting his driver's license and saying, "After I get my license tomorrow, I'm going to enter into a stock car race." However, your rocketry career is yours alone, and the only person you have to please is yourself. Many have written of the cost of crashing LPR, but I don't think anyone has talked about the time investment.

There is nothing more frustrating than watching something you spent weeks building, sanding, and painting come crashing down to the ground. And frustrating is the thing that will push you out of the hobby more quickly than anything else.

More than once I have scoured the field, looking for a rocket that didn't land well, swearing to myself that I am done with this hobby! Fortunately, I have not given in to that impulse.

As others have stated, don't trust built weights on vendor sites. A two-pound rocket is going to weigh four at the pad. If you want to have a satisfying experience, you some kind of controlled deployment (Jolly Logic Chute Release is a great option), and some kind of tracking. If an electronic tracker is not in the cards, have a friend or two on hand with binoculars.
 
Maybe it's just my LPR-oriented view of the world, but I can't quite get the desire to jump straight to an L1 build without learning on any smaller stuff first. It doesn't cost that much money or time, and you'll still end up with a flying rocket.

SpaceX didn't start with the BFR, or even the Falcon Heavy. There's a reason.

As Bat-mite said, though, it's your hobby and you can certainly do it however you like, within the bounds of safety. Building an L1-capable rocket as a first build seems doable for someone who knows their way around a workshop. I just don't fully understand why you would want to. Maybe that's just a failure of understanding my part.

Good luck in whatever approach you take. It's a great hobby.
 
My advice is to start with a cardboard rocket rather than fiberglass.

Many questions are answered in Modern High-Power Rocketry 2 by Mark Canepa. It's a little dated but still an excellent compendium of knowledge.
 
One other thing--I haven't weighed out my Arcas, but it's going to be really close to 3.3 lbs on the pad with a motor in. Why is that important? The FAA requires a waiver if you're over 3.3 pounds or 125 grams of propellant. It's possible your local NAR club has a waiver for their regular launches, but it's also possible they don't. If they advertise it as a "FAR 101" launch, they don't have a waiver. You won't be able to fly the Arcas at a FAR 101 launch if it goes to 3.4 pounds on the pad. New people also tend to build heavier than experienced people, too.

There have been a bunch of epoxy choice threads lately that are worth looking at. For the size and impulse you're talking about, you won't need anything fancy, but some of the products can make your life easier. I have not used epoxy clay, but I hear it is an absolute bear to sand smooth.

All that said, I went straight from an Estes Wizard nearly lost on a B6 to a scratch-built L1 cardboard bird. I still fly the L1 rocket, though the Wizard is long gone.
 
Alright, I ordered my rocket! .... a Madcow cardboard Mini Squat. :( I can fly this little guy on Estes D's and E's to get me started.

Well, gentlemen, you successfully squashed an old mans dreams. I hope you're happy!


(excited to get this little guy in the mail)
 
Don’t be sad. You will be thankful. I went from my desk top shelf queen to building 3 L2 birds in just over a year. 56 weeks to be exact. There are so many things you will learn from black powder to composites and reloads. Go as fast as your free time and wallet can go but be prepared. Things you can’t learn from videos are thing like launch angles, wind, drift and the underestimation of g forces on your construction techniques. Those come with wisdom and knowledge. All I learned the hard way.

Don’t give up. Enjoy the ride.
 

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