MAWD, Ignitors, and Anything Else

[AKPilot]

Okay, am making the plunge on electronics (MAWD). While I'm out there, and prior to placing the order, is there anything else I should be looking at getting from Perfect Flite to compliment the MAWD? Am planning on the USB link already.

And, as far as ignitors and not ever being able/desiring a LEUP, how should I proceed on e-matches? Quickburst, N3, etc?

Anything else I should be looking at?

I have a sponsor for my Lvl 3, but he's 100 miles away, and yes I've read the books and web sites on HPR. I just like you guys so much, I want your opinions . . .

 

[quickburst]

Okay, am making the plunge on electronics (MAWD). While I'm out there, and prior to placing the order, is there anything else I should be looking at getting from Perfect Flite to compliment the MAWD? Am planning on the USB link already.

And, as far as ignitors and not ever being able/desiring a LEUP, how should I proceed on ignitors/e-matches? Quickburst, N3, etc?

Anything else I should be looking at?

I have a sponsor for my Lvl 3, but he's 100 miles away, and yes I've read the books and web sites on HPR. I just like you guys so much, I want your opinions . . .

You need e-matches not igniters. Without a LEUP your choices are limited. FYI a LEUP will make high power rocketry much simpler.

I offer an E-Match kit, you mix and dip your own. The matches you make will be compatible with all known avionics.

Please see my site.

 

[AKPilot]

Thanks David for your response. I've taken the opportunity to look at your site. Not sure all of the rammifications of e-matches & LEUPs, just know, that I won't be applying for one. Is my basic understanding of the laws correct, that I can't possess e-matches without a LEUP?

Any other thoughts or suggestions from people on other components I should be looking at?

 

[skycopp]

I have the MAWD and I don't use matches or anything else. I use the christmas lights' method. Send me a PM if you'd like the details on how to do that. Never had one fail!

However, as I understand it, you don't need a LEUP to order that kit from Quickburst.

 

[skycopp]

Here is my super duper Christmas lights method for deployment with the MAWD. Before I get started, I would recommend Quickburst's kit. Although I've yet to have a failure using the christmas lights method, I've heard good things about his and it seems less of a hassle.
First, here are some items that I use. You can substitute where you'd think fit.
Blackpowder, pliers, wire strippers, wire cutters, hobby knife, one of those card board tubes that you get ignitors in, one of those little plastic thingies that Aerotech puts black powder in with some reloads, plumbers tape, wadding, and of course, one Christmas Light.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46533&stc=1&d=1196555227

Next Break the tip of the Christmas light with pliers. Wear eye protection. Glass may fly and be sure not to damage the filament. Usually after I do this step, I will use one of those Estes launch controllers to check for continuity.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46534&stc=1&d=1196555473

(1) Next, use wire strippers (or your teeth) to strip about 1/8 - 1/4 inch off the ends of the wires on the light. This will attach to a terminal block which is attached to a wire that will be connected to the MAWD. For that wire, I use one of the pairs from a CAT 5 cable.

(2) Then cut about 1.75 inches off of a tube that comes with ignitors in Aerotech kits. Not the skinny ones that come with Copperheads, but the quarter inch tubes.

(3) Next, place that cut piece over the light until it is snug.

(4) Then I use plumbers tape to tape it together. It may be better to use electrical tape. I haven't had a failure yet out of 20 launches using this method, but I'm concerned that a fast flight may destroy this charge, and the electrical tape would be stronger.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46537&stc=1&d=1196556023

(5) For this example, I will use only 1.25 grams of Black Powder. 3F (FFF) has been working fine for me. Measure out the black powder in the little plastic doohickey that Aerotech sometimes packs their BP in. If you squint real hard, you can see the measurements printed on the plastic. Be sure to verify how much BP to use. Don't want to destroy the rocket! Another tip, use scales.

(6) Pour the BP into the tube. I used a funnel that I created from an old envelope.

(7) Stuff little balls of wadding into the end to pack down the BP. BP has to be touching the filament or might not go off, just don't pack it tightly because you could break the filament. Snug is good.

(8) Tape the end of it to keep it together. Kind of looks like a little piece of candy. Isn't it cute? Even if I use electrical tape for taping the tube to the light, I'm still sticking with using plumbers tape on the ends. I want it to blow real easy and I don't know how much power is taken just to overcome the strength of the electrical tape. Maybe its not a big deal but I haven't gotten to testing it yet.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46540&stc=1&d=1196557656

(9) Finally, you want to label how much BP you loaded. Just in case the launch is scrubbed for some reason, or if you use different amounts for Main and Apogee, you don't want to get them mixed up or forget how much you loaded. I just use a sharpie on a piece of tape. You might even want to label it also with 'Main' or 'apogee'
https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46541&stc=1&d=1196557879

After you finish making the charge and you would like to test to see you still have continuity (in case of a broken filament), be sure you step way back when doing so. Something like 30 feet is what I'd recommend. Do not try it in your neighbors mailbox. They will not appreciate it. Get far away and warn people within earshot. This is in the event that the charge accidentally goes off, you can't be too safe..0

Thats how I make an ejection charge with christmas lights. Hope it helps. Jimmy Yawn has his method over at his site, in case you're interested. Good luck.

 

[mr_fixit]

Troy,

I had the same questions for my DD level 2. Went with the perfectflite and the Newtons3rd ejection canisters. Made my life a whole lot easier and one less thing to worry about. Just a thought, no LEUP necessary and they really are built very well. You will not be disappointed.

Best of luck to you!

--T

 

[Handeman]

Here is my super duper Christmas lights method for deployment with the MAWD.....

I use a very similar method with the xmas lights. The only real differenct is I use two bulbs just for added redundancy and solder the lead wires to the bulbs instead of using the sockets. It's more trouble, but if you do a batch of them at a time it's not too bad.

I cut pieces of kraft paper (shopping bags) about 2.5" by 2.5".

I use the bulbs, no sockets, etc. Break the tips off and make a visual inspection of the filament. This is where a magnifing glass comes in very handy.

Continuity checks don’t really work. The reason a sting of xmas lights stays lit if one bulb burns out, is because there’s some wire wrapped around the base of the posts that hold the filament. Unless you remove these wire wraps, you will have continuity if the filament is OK or not. I don’t bother removing the wire, I just use the two bulbs that check out visually.

I lay the two bulbs together with the wires next to each other and use hot glue to glue them to the paper.

Wrap the paper into an oval tube around the two bulbs and hot glue the paper to hold the tube shape.

I then twist the wires of the two bulbs together so the wire leads I attach will fire both bulbs.

I use a 24 ga. lead wire to attach to the bulbs. I solder the lead wires to the bulbs.

Between the soldering iron and hot glue gun, well, this is why it’s better to do a batch at a time.

Use more hot glue to fill and seal the end of the paper tube around the two bulbs and insulate the solder joints.

When you're ready to use these, fill the tubes with the desired amount of black powder, fold the tops over and tape down with masking tape.

These have worked well for me.

 

[skycopp]

Continuity checks don’t really work. The reason a sting of xmas lights stays lit if one bulb burns out, is because there’s some wire wrapped around the base of the posts that hold the filament. Unless you remove these wire wraps, you will have continuity if the filament is OK or not.

I'm glad you told me that. I will have to check into that.

I lay the two bulbs together with the wires next to each other and use hot glue to glue them to the paper.

I'm trying to picture this in my mind. When you say lay the bulbs together, do you mean side by side so that both the bulbs are on one end and the wires are at the other? OR, do you mean with the wires next to each other, but with the bulbs on opposite ends of each other?

 

[Handeman]

I thought I might not have explained that to well. Here's a quick drawing of a red and green bulb.

View attachment bulbs.JPG

 

[quickburst]

Thanks David for your response. I've taken the opportunity to look at your site. Not sure all of the rammifications of e-matches & LEUPs, just know, that I won't be applying for one. Is my basic understanding of the laws correct, that I can't possess e-matches without a LEUP?

Any other thoughts or suggestions from people on other components I should be looking at?

FYI:
Binary Pyrogens such as H-3 (e-match dip), QuickDip, Magnelite and many others, (most any Pyrogen that is available).

1.) You do not need an ATF permit to purchase.
2.) You do need an ATF permit to manufacture.
3.) Federal Law requires legal storage of these pyrogens after they are mixed.
4.) Other than a issuing the LEMP (low explosives manufacturing permit) to cover the actual manufacture of these products the ATF is not involved.
5.) You must have DOT approval to legally ship these products (unless your item fits #8 below).
6.) Most of these pyrogens will be classified as 1.4S, UN0454.
7.) Shipment by USPS Ground is possible, after you acquire written permission from The Office of Mailing Standards" (unless your item fits #8 below).

8.) Another shipping route possible is called "ORM-D" or "Other Regulated Materials". ORM-D labeling can be accepted by USPS as long as it is marked properly and it fits within ORM-D requirements. These regulations specify maximum weights, compositions, etc... DOT writes and maintains these specifications, USPS has to adhere to them.

Bottom line is:
You must provide legal storage of these mixtures as specified by Federal Law. I have no idea which branch of the Fed regulates them, but it's not the ATF.

I also know that removing the label from a pillow or mattress you intend to sell is forbidden by Federal law. I also do not know which part of the Fed enforces that law.

The ATF is not going to knock on your door, search and arrest you for possessing, mixing or illegal storage of QuickDip, H-3, Magnelite or any other pyrogen. However, if you are really an idiot and use these products to cause harm to yourself, your property, or anyone else's self or property. All of these laws will be used to arrest your stupid a*s and throw you in jail. This is why they exist.

The DOT and USPS are a different story. Let them catch you with a mislabeled shipment and you are in serious trouble. Serious. The fines are astronomical for the simplest violation. These are the folks you don't want to mess with.

OK abide by all Federal law. You use whatever product you wish to activate your ejection charge. If the charge was made from black powder, you have just violated another law. If the charge was made from Pyrodex or some other smokeless composition .... well I'm not sure. I am sure of one thing though, it won't be the ATF that is concerned. It will be some other Fed dept. Most likely the same guy that inspects your pillows and mattresses : )

To be perfectly honest with you; I'm not convinced that there is a legal way to use an ejection charge. Unless you have been issued a Federal permit (LEUP or better) or your use of explosives is supervised by a permitted individual, or the charge is part of an unregulated APCP or Black powder rocket motor.

Go get the LEUP, I have been telling people this for years. It's not that big a deal, and the reward is well worth it in both peace of mind and the elimination of "RED TAPE".

 

[Rick Lindsey]

And, as far as ignitors and not ever being able/desiring a LEUP, how should I proceed on e-matches? Quickburst, N3, etc?

Assuming you're looking to fire ejection charges, not ignite motors, there seems to be one "regulation free" route. Start with a non-ematch ejection device, such as christmas tree lights if you like to roll your own, or a Pratt ejection cannister, or a Newton's 3rd ejection cannister, or even oldschool flashbulbs if you can find them (or, if you have a HiAlt45k or whatever the appropriate altimeter is, you can use a quickburst hotcoil -- those won't work with your MAWD though). Get some pyrodex (which, unlike black powder, isn't regulated by the ATF or any other agency that I know of), and a roll of electrical tape. After putting your pyrodex in your container, stuff it full of dog barf or something similar and wrap it up a couple times with electrical tape.

Unfortunately Pyrodex isn't as well behaved as Black Powder for our purposes, as if it's not contained it tends to scatter itself before it all gets ignited, resulting in a failure to eject. Once it's contained, however, it seems to work quite well. I'd make up a few charges and ground-test them until you have a good feel for it if you choose to go this route.

All is not lost for the LEUPless, but I must concur with Quickburst's assessment that a having a LEUP makes things alot easier! Have you talked to your local club (presumably you have one?) about pursuing a club LEUP? That may be the way of the future (even if the NAR/Tripoli win their lawsuit against the ATF, they will still try to prevent us from using black powder -- a club leup and a little bitty club magazine to hold a couple one-pound cans of black powder solves that problem! Perhaps it will be come like the club bucket of dog barf?)


-Rick

 

[jrcox]

David

Excellent information.

All
Look at it this way, if you are using xmas lights to initiate a charge of BP (or other Pyrodex), what is the difference than using a commercially made kit (Quickburst) to initiate a charge of BP?

I have used about 50 of the Quickburst ematches while conducting numerous ground tests last summer. The Quickburst ematch is really simple to assemble, well documented and every e-match that I tested worked perfectly. It is a well designed product and I will readily use them anytime for a flight.

I also tested some other products with mixed results. The low current, pyrogen based e-matches were the most reliable devices tested.

To add to David's comment, I agree, getting a LEUP is very simple (Unless you have a felony conviction) and eliminates many problems for flying high powered rocketry.

John

 

[BAR0051]

Here is a link to my method;
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=35452&highlight=Xmas+tree+bulb

I have now made 4 flights (I161 to J350) using this method with 100% success.

Here is how I install them in the e-bay;
https://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/P4270110.jpg
https://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/P4270115.jpg

 

[AKPilot]

What type of "on/off" switch are people using?

 

[quickburst]

What type of "on/off" switch are people using?

I have been using the screwdriver rotary switches from Missile Works with great success; never a failure.

See:
https://tinyurl.com/ypf2ll

At $4.00 each they are a good value. They require a 1/2" OD hole in the e-bay for mounting.

 

[skycopp]

Continuity checks don’t really work. The reason a sting of xmas lights stays lit if one bulb burns out, is because there’s some wire wrapped around the base of the posts that hold the filament. Unless you remove these wire wraps, you will have continuity if the filament is OK or not.

What you said made sense so I did some testing on this. I checked the package and indeed the lights that I got are supposed to stay lit if one bulb is out. Then I took a fresh Christmas light and broke the end of the bulb. I did a continuity test with an Estes controller and verified that there was continuity. Using a hobby knife I then cut the filament. I performed the continuity test again, but this time it failed. Wouldn't there still be continuity, even with a broken filament?
Anyone have any ideas as to why?

 

[Floyd R. Turbo]

Hi,
What I was told was that the Xmas tree light bulbs (mini-lights?)
have an insulated wire (shunt) wrapped around the two prongs that hold
the bulb filament.

The wire is insulated so no current passes through the shunt. If
it wasn't insulated, the wire shunt would have lower resistance than
the filament and the filament would never light (well it would be dim
if it did light). Xmas tree lights are wired in series so each bulb only
sees about a 2 volt drop across itself. When a filament burns out,
current stops flowing through the string of lights and there is no voltage
drop across the functioning lights. The filament that burned out
will instantly see a 120 volt drop across the two prongs that held the
filament. This is enough voltage to get the insulation on the shunt
to break down and fuse the shunt to the two prongs. Once the shunt
starts passing current the remaining bulbs in the string will light again.

This only happens if the filament breaks or burns up and the
string is connected to 120 volt power. You can't fuse the shunt
with a 9 volt battery. In my opinion, if the Xmas tree light bulb lights
with a 9 volt battery the shunt is never going to be able to be activated.
The shunt just functions as an insulator like the glass tube
containing the filament.

 

[edwardw]

Have you sourced some AG1-B flashbulbs? Those go off very easily and can light charges if you want another option. I used to have a source very cheap but cannot seem to find them anymore.

Edward

 

[sandmantoy]

What type of "on/off" switch are people using?

I like Aerocons key switch with a remove before flight flag, not an economy route but kool lookin