• This community needs YOUR help today!

    With the ever-increasing fees of maintaining our vibrant community (servers, software, domains, email), we need help.
    We need more Supporting Members today.

    Please invest back into this community to help spread our love and knowledge of multi-channel sound.

    Why Join?

    • Exclusive Access: Gain entry to private forums.
    • Special Perks: Enjoy enhanced account features that enrich your experience, including the ability to disable ads.
    • Free Gifts: Sign up annually and receive exclusive The Rocketry Forum decals directly to your door!

    This is your chance to make a difference. Become a Supporting Member today:

    Upgrade Now

Making plans for StratoSpear again

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
For the second stage, the parameters are less critical. The booster only gets the stack going to Mach 0.8, and so not much delay is desirable before 2nd stage ignition. If the boost angle is not too bad but bad enough for the the no-fire case for the sustainer, I think I will still want the 2nd stage to fire, because I have another K-627 I could use to re-fly, and I want to get at least one more stage to ignite than I did in last year's attempt. With a 10 degree initial launch angle, if the 2nd stage fires, the sustainer would get to an apogee about 29,000 feet about 2 miles downrange, with about 200 feet/second of horizontal velocity, which should be o.k. for the sustainer apogee deployment.

On the more optimistic side, the optimal ignition altitude for the 2nd stage is about 6000 feet if the initial angle is 2 degrees. But that optimal altitude goes down to 5000 feet for a 4 degree initial launch angle, and 4600 feet for a 5 degree initial angle. For a 10 degree initial launch angle (worst case for sustainer deployment), the best ignition altitude for the 2nd stage is 2700 feet. I think I will open the window at that altitude and have a target angle of 6 degrees, and a maximum angle of 12 degrees. With these settings, for anything but a nearly vertical boost, the 2nd stage will ignite at 2700 feet. But for those more vertical cases, the ignition time will be delayed somewhat for a little more optimum altitude.
 
Here’s the site I use for jet stream forecasts. I have been watching it closely over the last few days. A few days ago, the forecast for Friday and Saturday changed a lot with each model run. But now the forecast has stabilized with good upper level winds all Saturday morning, and decent winds Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning too. This will give me Friday to prep and double-check everything, and a planned launch early Saturday morning.
 
Last edited:
I flew it yesterday.

IMG-1806.jpg

The boost was straight, but there as almost no smoke trail and so from the the away cell RSO area the rocket was nearly invisible. From the flight line it was invisible. The boost seemed straight, but then there was no 2nd stage ignition. Disappointment.

It turned out that the second stage igniter lit, but it wasn't enough to start the motor. The sustainer broke the nosecone shock cord at apogee, so the nosecone and nosecone ejector piston free-fell with minor damage.
IMG-1810.jpg

With the nosecone gone, rest of the sustainer was still aerodynamic (ballistic) on the way down. Then the still-heavy stage ripped the main chute and broke the main chute shock cord when it deployed at the main chute altitude. So the sustainer core sampled:

IMG-1809.jpg

Believe it or not, after careful digging the sustainer airframe (though not the av-bay or chute cannon) came out nearly undamaged and definitely flyable again.

The second stage shock cord ripped through the G10 bulkhead it was threaded through, IMG-1827.jpg

so the chute and av-bay came down gently a couple miles away, while the 2nd stage airframe came down hard, breaking a fin and column buckling the fibers in the tube. I don't think it's salvageable but I'll take another look later.

The booster had a normal recovery and is undamaged.

I'm checking out the data from the sustainer top and bottom Blue Ravens, and the booster Blue Raven. I'll have more on that later.
 
Sorry your flight wasn't nominal, but glad you recovered as much as you did. Looking forward to your usual detailed analysis of the flight.

Sounds like the case in the sustainer survived. Did the grains remain intact?
 
Sorry your flight wasn't nominal, but glad you recovered as much as you did. Looking forward to your usual detailed analysis of the flight.

Sounds like the case in the sustainer survived. Did the grains remain intact?
Yes for the second stage, no for the sustainer:
IMG_1855.jpeg

The cracked liner that i peeled away appears to be the only problem, but this K627 has now flown twice and had a hard landing both times, so it's probably time to retire it. Maybe I can use it for a ground ignition test.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1854.jpeg
    IMG_1854.jpeg
    1.2 MB · Views: 0
You can always use some of that k627 to create shavings to reinforce your igniters. I forgot who does it on here but they say that they add shavings from their Rx motors to their igniters and it makes for a very fast and powerful ignition. Something about taking the shavings putting them in a container with desiccant and when they are ready to launch they attach the shavings to an igniter.
 
It's been a week, so time to complete the post-mortem.

First of all, I did not meet my goal of completing the prep on all 3 stages before sending them away with Steve. I completed the booster prep, and nearly completed the sustainer prep, but on the 2nd stage I only got as far as making sure I had all the pieces. I rushed the electronics work so that I could get them installed into the rockets to ship out, and I deferred the finalization of the deployment settings, knowing that I could change them via Bluetooth while they were buried in the rocket. However, that approach prevented me from testing all the final settings in a safe configuration without tearing all the stages apart. So lesson #1: Plan to keep a lot of time margin at the end before shipment date.

Why was the lack of testing important? It turned out that the inadequate 2nd stage igniter wasn't the only problem; I also messed up the 2nd stage separation charge setting, by setting it for 0.5 second after motor burnout #1, instead of motor burnout #2. I had always planned to launch on Saturday, and Friday was a prep day. But I was programming the settings on Friday afternoon, after I had already been prepping for hours and was getting a little worn out. I was so focused on the motor ignition settings and thought, "oh, separation charge, that's easy, just set it for motor burnout plus 0.5 second." Which is an understandable mistake to do once, but I hate repeating the same mistake from last year.

So lesson #2: Always run a full simulated flight with the final settings and verify that all the outputs are going off at the intended times. I would have caught the separation charge setting if I had run the simulated flights. For this flight, that would have been 12 outputs between 5 altimeters on 3 stages, which is the kind of thing that makes a class-3 three stage flight so hard. If I had done that before shipping, I could have downloaded and checked all the data in the comfort and quiet of my lab. Doing that under an EZ-up with big rockets going off and customers coming by to ask for troubleshooting help would have been nearly impossible, so the best I could do was just retreat to the relative quiet of the RV, skip any simulated flights and just carefully check the settings. The ignition settings were well-checked, and the deployment settings were well-proven defaults, but the separation charge settings needed attention that I forgot to give them.

I made another critical mistake prepping the second stage on Friday, but it was one I caught at the pad on Saturday. Because of the combination of minimum diameter, head-end ignition, and motor-attached deployments, the motor igniter unavoidably has to be installed early in the assembly process. Because of this, my strategy for safety is to keep the motor grains out of the motor until I get to the pad. This year I learned to attach a guide thread attached to the igniter that I pull on as I insert the motor grains to make sure the igniter goes down the core rather than getting mashed against the top grain, and this worked well during test assembly with no electronics. But when I went to do this for the 2nd stage at the pad, the motor liner didn't fit in quite right. On prep day I added some hot melt glue to the base of the igniter to help keep it straight, and didn't think to re-check the fit. Rather than force the motor grains in, I decided to take apart the 2nd stage to see why the motor wasn't fitting. When I did that, I noticed that I had forgotten to install the forward o-ring on the forward closure. And worse, I couldn't remember installing the forward O-ring on the sustainer motor, either. The 2nd stage I could disassemble and fix in a few minutes because the av-bay is separate from the top of the motor. But disassembling the sustainer is a much bigger deal. I had to reverse all the assembly steps from post #85 and then re-do them all, out on the table in the sun, at the away pad. But I got it done with help from my crew Vic and Steve and James Russell who were incredibly patient. And it turned out that I had installed the O-ring on the sustainer's forward closure, after all. Why? because I did that part of the prep at home.

So lesson #3, which really goes with the other two: Complete all possible prep at home. This is something I have already learned over the years, but apparently I need some periodic reminders.

Other things that went wrong that were new and surprising for me. The second stage ejectable av-bay harness tore through the fiberglass harness attachment bulkhead. This is a brand new one. I had intentionally kept the harness short and without reefing to make sure that the two parts of the chute compartment would fully come apart to expose the chute. I used a small premade cardboard tube charge of a size that I have used before, but I haven't ground tested that recently. I did ground test an aluminum charge holder that I used on the booster, and it was appropriately sized, but because of space limitations in the 2nd stage area, I couldn't use the same approach. Lesson #4: Beef up the harness attachment with 4 threaded holes instead of 2, use a thicker harness, and reef it.

On the sustainer, the nosecone ejection blew, apparently when it was supposed to, but it broke the shock cord. I found the nosecone and the NC ejection piston, and the exploded-looking shock cord by themselves on the playa. This was a setup that I had ground tested the week before, and it worked perfectly. I also flew it at Airfect (though with an electrical short that prevented deployment) and at the NCR August launch. I also ground tested it in July. About the only thing I might do differently would be to use a slightly thicker shock cord, and replace it more often. This one didn't look sketchy, but it had probably taken a fair amount of damage over repeated tests and flights. Maybe stronger reefing, too?

With the nosecone detached, the rocket was descending ballistically with a heavy unburned motor when the main chute blew. So I don't fault the main chute for not surviving that, but it also broke the shock cord. Lesson #5: Go beefier on the recovery gear. It's not a place for finesse.


So, what went right?

The tower got the stack going straight, and the stages were stiff enough and tight enough to stay stable and straight through the boost.

1696179329184.png

The tower had a little bit of an (unintentional) tilt away from the flight line that you can see in this photo:
IMG-1805.jpg

but the boost was on track for the second stage to light.

It did fire the 2nd stage igniter, but a later than intended due to the accidental sustainer separation, which messed up the baro altimeter reading:
1696179908803.png

The separation charge put a big pressure spike on the 2nd stage av-bay, which took some time to recover, and the open front end caused ram air pressurization of the tube also, so it took some time for it to go slow enough for the that effect to be small enough for the baro sensor to detect that it went over the minimum altitude of 2700 feet. Based on the inertial altitude estimate, it got over 2700 feet in about 4 seconds, and the stage igniter lit at 8 seconds when the baro sensor caught up. The tilt hadn't increased much during that time.

The pad checklist I made in June for the class 3 application was pretty much right on the money, and it reduced stress when I was able to get back on it after the disassembly/assembly detour.
 
Wow, fantastic write up! I really appreciate how transparent you are with everything you do – many good observations that apply to all of us flying rockets of any complexity.

It was really great to get to see you out at Black Rock and get look over the parts we've watched you fabricate and sweat over in your past posts. It's one thing to see photos and weights in a post, but it's altogether different to hold a part and have a chance to really appreciate how light and strong it is compared to typical rocket parts. It's great that you and many others here take the time to document your builds and flights – I know they benefit a lot of us 'mere mortals' who just want to fly our rockets and get them back in one piece.

Thanks for that,


Tony
 
Wow, fantastic write up! I really appreciate how transparent you are with everything you do – many good observations that apply to all of us flying rockets of any complexity.

It was really great to get to see you out at Black Rock and get look over the parts we've watched you fabricate and sweat over in your past posts. It's one thing to see photos and weights in a post, but it's altogether different to hold a part and have a chance to really appreciate how light and strong it is compared to typical rocket parts. It's great that you and many others here take the time to document your builds and flights – I know they benefit a lot of us 'mere mortals' who just want to fly our rockets and get them back in one piece.

Thanks for that,


Tony
I'm glad we got to chat at BALLS too. I had a great time seeing so many cool projects in person.
 
Looking closely at the tilt plot, I was expecting the two 2nd stage Blue Ravens to have nearly identical measured tilt, but they start out about 2 degrees apart, and continue. I haven't confirmed this yet, but I also suspect that a lot of the apparent tilt oscillations after that correspond to the roll of the rocket.

1696188169696.png
This would point to a little inaccuracy in the altimeter's calculation for the direction of the rocket axis. The Blue Raven calculates tilt by measuring the direction of gravity before liftoff, measuring the rocket tower/rail direction at liftoff detection, and then propagating both of those directions during the flight using the gyros and quaternions. The two Blue Ravens were bolted together with identical spacers, so they are about as parallel with each other as they can be. They disagree in the direction of gravity by 0.8 degrees, but they disagree about the direction of the rocket's first motion by 2.7 degrees. I think this could be due to just sampling at different times as the rocket bounces within the tower. I'll think about if I can improve the rocket direction accuracy, maybe by measuring the motion over an observed distance, rather than just at liftoff detection, which is when the velocity first goes over 6 feet/second, which is almost immediate for a high-G flight.
 
I'm starting to rebuild the sustainer innards. This is the piece that connects the threaded rods of the av-bay to the top of the motor.

IMG_2934.jpegIMG_2935.jpeg



The green circuit board is just a structural attachment for the 1" diameter Blue Ravens. Last time I put it on the underside. This time it's on the top so that it will keep the 29mm airframe tube centered. I made the bulkhead out of sheet stock, and finished the circular edge using my belt sander while the part was chucked into my drill so that it would be centered on the hole.
 
Last edited:
Today I replaced the threaded rods with longer ones, made a pass-through for the sustainer ignition wires, and soldered them to one of the Blue Ravens.
IMG_2942.jpeg
IMG_2941.jpeg

Next, on a 2nd stage that I made 12 years ago and broke 2 years ago, I removed 2 cracked fins, made replacements, glued them on in my alignment fixture with JB weld and then added fillets.

IMG_2948.jpeg
IMG_2947.jpeg

The last 2 photos are out of order, but show how I use spray paint to match the outline of the old fins.

Then I sanded the paint off of my new lighter nosecone and added a layer of fiberglass to the outside.

IMG_2951.jpeg

IMG_2952.jpeg
The last photo is of the original plug for the mold, which I used for a reference so I didn’t have to handle the clean sanded nosecone. The 4 pieces of FG worked out just right to cover the nosecone with minimal overlap.

The fillets on the booster, and the FG reinforcement over the nose, are curing overnight tonight.
 
The last 2 photos are out of order, but show how I use spray paint to match the outline of the old fins.
Thanks for that idea, Adrian !

It's ingenius !!

Going to try it for a set of small fins I've been putting off because my 0.9mm pentel pencil lead is too HUGE to draw consistent outlines on a sheet of black G10 :)

-- kjh
 
The nosecone this morning, with blue tape as a compression wrap over the peel ply:


IMG_2953.jpeg

Yesterday’s fiberglass layup turned out pretty well, about as flat as it could be, but maybe a little dry.

After sanding off the high spots I tried to work in a top coat of epoxy, but I preheated it too much (130F) trying to get the viscosity down, and it backfired, going off in my gloved hand as I tried to slather it on. So I sanded most of that off and got ready to try again. Unfortunately, some pinhole voids are permanently encapsulated now:

IMG_2957.jpeg
Macro lens ugliness looks worse than it is.

On the bright side, the weak spots and cracks in the nosecone have been eliminated and it’s rigid all over.

My next skim coat went pretty well, so I replaced the shock cord before going further with the surface finish. The stainless eyebolt is embedded a little too far forward in the tip, so there’s not enough room to pull a spliced shock cord through using the existing cord. There’s also not enough room to get my new 1500lb shock cord between the eye bolt and the inside wall of the cone, so I had to settle for 1000 lb cord, and I had to cross-drill from the outside to install it. I pushed the cord through both walls and the eye bolt and then used a special baling wire hook tool to pull the cord back into the inside of the nosecone on either side of the eyebolt.

I filled in the drilled access holes and that’s curing tonight.

I used leftover epoxy to put some uni carbon reinforcement on the two new fins of the booster. I bagged it and that is curing tonight too. We’ll see if the epoxy was still thin enough to penetrate the carbon or if it came out too dry.

Last night a new carbon 1.500” ID tube was delivered from McMaster-Carr. The quality looks beautiful. The temperature rating of 250 and the wall thickness are both a bit overkill, but I will need a little extra wall thickness before I sand out the inside so motors can fit. I will probably use it for a new 2nd stage of a 3-stage stack for BALLS. The stage I’m repairing now will be good for the shorter motors I have planned for NSL. I’m planning a Loki 474 first stage for both my J and K complex record attempts. The J attempt will get an I sustainer and a shorter airframe, and the K attempt will get a K627 going into my newer, longer sustainer airframe that only works with the Loki 38-1200 case.
 
No photos today, but I did make some progress. I sanded the nosecone and the booster fins, then added an epoxy coat to the nosecone and a thickened coat of epoxy on the fins.

I post-cured the nosecone at 250F and 350F, and then sanded it down to 600 grit. I think I still want to addd the high-temperature paint. I sanded the booster fins to probably their final surface. They match the existing fin nicely and all 3 seem straight and strong, which makes me happy.

I did some more simulation with the new nosecone and booster masses. I think I will fly the J1026 as a single stage record attempt first, which will give me a good basis for validating the sims to make sure that I have some margin against breaking the 52k waiver when I do the K 2-stage attempt. It might be close.

Now besides the possible nosecone paint, I have the outer surfaces of 2 sustainers and a booster done, and the innards of 1.5 sustainers are done. I picked and calibrated my Blue Ravens for the K sustainer, and gave my app developer feedback on how to improve the app for 2-stage flights. Tomorrow I’ll work more on the innards of the two stages and tomorrow night I’ll make one or two new parachutes.

With other travel planned before NSL, I have 4 days left that are available for prep. I think I’m on track if I can finish the fabrication in the next 2 days.
 
Glad you are working on this again, always learn something when I read your stuff. Is there a specific day you plan on flying this at NSL? If so I'm going to try to be there! I would love to see this in person!
Current plan is to fly the sustainer first thing Saturday morning on the Loki J-1026 as a single stage J record attempt. Over 100 Gs, Mach 2.5 in 1 second. If it’s still flyable, the weather is good and if the updated sims don’t break the waiver, I’ll go for the K multi-stage record first thing Sunday morning. Otherwise I’ll fly an older sustainer to go for the J 2-stage record on Sunday or Monday morning. I have a hotel this time, so my strategy is to prep at the hotel the night before, fly first thing and then be available as a vendor the rest of the day after recovering my rocket.
 
Just don't update the firmware with your igniter installed....
LOL. I actually chose my hotel in part to avoid the one where that happened so nobody gets nervous.

Seriously though, there are 3 or 4 obvious things that led up to that that I would never ever do.
 
(snippped for brevity)
…. I picked and calibrated my Blue Ravens for the K sustainer, and gave my app developer feedback on how to improve the app for 2-stage flights. …
The advantage of having a hardware developer using his own gear to push the envelope – makes like better for everyone else using the hardware. There may be bumps along the road in the development process with software, but in the end we all get a better product.


Tony
 
Back
Top