Looking for FFFFG BP in the DFW area

[rharshberger]

Is there a Sticky anywhere about Black Powder vs. BP Substitutes (aka a really slow smokeless powder) vs. Smokeless Powder (aka modern rifle, pistol, red dot (brand) powders etc). To many times the debate gets started about the virtues of one or the other ANYTIME someone asks where to get BP.

IMO

1)Smokeless powder (aka Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique etc) is only for Modern Firearms as it requires high pressures to burn fast enough to generate enough gas quickly to do its job.

2)Black Powder Subsitutes (aka Triple 7, American Pioneer, Blackhorn, IMR White Hots, Black MZ etc): Yes they will work for rocketry ejection charges but still require fairly significant containment to do the same job as BP

3) FFFFg Black Powder ( Goex, Swiss, etc): Is the best and EASIEST product to use: easy ignition, minimal containment to get semi-efficient burning and generates lots of gas for ejection.

4) BP, BP substitutes, and Smokeless gunpowders are all listed as LOW EXPLOSIVES!

My rant is through.

 

[watermelonman]

Finding black powder is literally the worst part of high power rocketry. I hated hunting for igniters too but now I have a steady supply again.

 

[rharshberger]

Finding black powder is literally the worst part of high power rocketry. I hated hunting for igniters too but now I have a steady supply again.

I agree that finding it can be a pain, for me I have to drive about 20 miles or so to get BP (in a direction that my only reason for going is to get black powder) since my local municipalities do not allow the storage (retail type) without a hugely expensive storage magazine, my usual source of BP is soon moving to Nevada and closing his store, and the next closest place is about 150 miles away. Finding igniters is definitely a pain as well (at least cheaply anyways). My main complaint in my previous post is that any request by someone looking for BP has a tendency to devolve into alternate powders that are really not very well suited to what we do with BP or even some poor recommendations of untested methods of getting said alternatives to work.

Once you find a location, obtaining the material is easy enough, simply go up to the counter and ask if they have FFFFg in stock, if they do, simply ask for a can or so, the clerk will usually disappear back into a storage area, reappear with the requested can of said powder and accept your payment, usually without any other questions being ask (you may be asked to sign a log book, iirc from my last purchase) showing a can of powder was sold to a legitimate individual. If you have some knowledge of the various BPs out there or Flintlock Muzzleloading (which I do) I usually chat with the clerk and see if they have a similar interest, I have had some great BS sessions with them.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

that said sometimes they will ask what the powder is being used for.

 

[Buckeye]

Geez, if you can't easily find black powder in Texas, then there is no hope for the rest of us in the nanny states!

I bought some 3FG pre-9/11/2001 and it has lasted me through. 3FG is just as good as 4FG - no difference for our deployment application. The Pyrodex seems too unreliable and finicky. Get yourself the BP instead.

I would probably crack under pressure if the guy behind the Bass Pro counter was asking too many questions. I have a good friend who is into the shooting sports and reloading that I can probably call on to help me out with a future purchase.

 

[rharshberger]

that said sometimes they will ask what the powder is being used for.

That's easy, the answer is that is for priming the flashpan on a flintlock rifle or pistol (FFFFg anyways) and FFFg is for a blackpowder rifle or pistol.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

I was just saying they do ask, but I don't want to suggest telling what they want to hear, someone might flame me for advocating lying. Not all rocket guys have side lock firearms

 

[grouch]

Dude, you don't have to own a flint lock to use the powder in one. Nobody is suggesting anyone lie. Just say it's used for priming pans in flintlocks. Not a lie.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Yes I have noticed smokeless powder, blackpowder substitutes being listed as explosives in the 2013 explosive list, however I don't see any changes in how they are handled. To sell black powder the seller must have an explosive license but not to sell smokeless powder or pyrodex. I wonder how it's supposed to work?

 

[cherokeej]

I have purchased BP from a number of sources over the years, and never once has anyone ever mentioned a LEUP. Ever. The only thing I can recall ever being said was "Just a moment..." while they went in back to get it out of the magazine.

And I live in The Nanny State.

But the last can I bought... I got from a vendor at a launch. He didn't ask about a LEUP either.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

I don't mean a LEUP for buyers, the seller has to have a dealer's permit and approved storage in order to sell them. Which is why fewer people sell blackpowder compared to substitutes like pyrodex.

 

[cwbullet]

You are suppose to have an LEUP to buy black powder for rocketry. Buy a black powder rifle. You can buy it for that.

I use black powder for a smooth bore and rifled muzzle loader.

 

[powderburner]

You are suppose to have an LEUP to buy black powder for rocketry. Buy a black powder rifle. You can buy it for that.

I use black powder for a smooth bore and rifled muzzle loader.

Just so everyone out there knows, most modern blackpowder guns use primer caps to ignite the propellant charge, and use more coarse types of blackpowder. FFFF is a very finely powdered form that is used primarily in the flash pan under a flintlock-type blackpowder rifle; the flint produces sparks that ignite the primer, which burns through a port to the internal chamber, which is loaded with FFF or FF. If the rifle is loaded (in the main combustion chamber) with a full charge of FFFF, serious overpressure problems may occur. This overpressure problem also applies to "modern" blackpowder rifles that use primer caps.

So telling the guy behind the counter that you need FFFF for loading your rifle may still earn you a sideways look, and a quiet behind-the-counter call to the FBI.

Just sayin'........

 

[Banzai88]

Yes I have noticed smokeless powder, blackpowder substitutes being listed as explosives in the 2013 explosive list, however I don't see any changes in how they are handled. To sell black powder the seller must have an explosive license but not to sell smokeless powder or pyrodex. I wonder how it's supposed to work?

'Cause the Fire Marshall says so!

Black Powder is a low class explosive and Smokeless Powder (Used in modern brass/steel cased firearms ammunition) is classified as a burnable solid. That's why they can pack the shelves with it in the store and the 'real' black powder goes outside in an approved magazine. Most black powder substitutes are also classified as burnable solids. Having been in the gun industry for 30 years, at least where I live, that's how the Fire Marshall see it.