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Woody's Workshop

Woody's Workshop

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I am really confused, and need a direction to get answers.:confused2:
I've been on the net all day looking to learn about Engines Larger than the Estes D, which was the largest I knew of way back when.
I'm more confused now than ever, there is soooo much out there, and I want to just ease into things and try something better, without spending a ton of money (cuz I don't have a ton for one thing, but...).
I guess you guys out there that are experienced with larger engines can send me links that I can learn from, and I don't want to bother any of you to explain it to me, but a direction where I can learn on my own.
I have several projects in the works for larger rockets, nothing really too big.
I'm perfectly happy with rockets that use BT-80 tubes in the 36" to 48" total rocket length. But I'd like to use a single engine and get it up there about 1500' to 2000'.
The numbering system is very confusing when your use to understanding Estes Engine codes, and I can't explain how lost I am right now.:y:
There are single use engines, reloadable, and gobs of stuff I have no idea what they are talking about or offering.
Some need certification or licenses, which I hope I don't need to get into.
But if some of you guys out there can just point me to some learning links I would so greatly appreciate it.
Thank you all kindly in advance for any help you can give this Born Again Rocketeer.
JEA
 
So...you can go up to a "G" without certification. And...basic rule still applies with the lettering. B is twice the power of A, C is twice B, D is twice C and so on. You can have a *LOT* of fun with 24mm and 29mm engines while staying reasonably cost conscious. A ton of E, F, and G reloads in that range. I say reloads because in a short time, they become more cost effective than single use motors AND...it's fun :D
 
As stated, each letter is twice the range of the previous.

Low power is typically considered D or lower.
Mid power use E, F, and G (although some may claim E are still low power)
High power consists of H and above (although it is possible to find G that are considered high power).

You need to get certified to fly high power. L1 is H/I, L2 is J/K/L, L3 is M and above.

You can find more details for certification at the NAR.org or Tripoli web sites.

If you are going to do a lot of flying, then yes reloads are the way to go. They do have a higher upfront cost (you have to buy the reusable casing that the reloads go into). For starters, I would consider the single use motors from Aerotech.

Best thing would be to find a local club (again, check NAR and Tripoli) where people with experience in high power can assist you.
 
Well, to elaborate a bit and summarize:

Estes still makes the black powder 1/4A through D motors they've made for decades. There are a few that are no longer made (such as the B14 and C5) and they've added the C11 (the same size casing as the D12) and the E9 (one inch longer than the D12). There are rumors of larger black powder motors in the works, but we'll have to see if that comes about. Quest also makes a line of black powder motors, from A6 to C6, plus a rather nifty D5 that is the same length as the E9 but only 20mm in diameter (the C11/D12/E9 are called 24mm, while the regular motors are 18mm and the mini "T" motors are 13mm).

If you want to step up to AP (Ammonium Perchlorate) motors - the same stuff that powered the Space Shuttle's Solid Rocket Boosters - they're made by Aerotech. There are other AP motor manufacturers, but they are ALL reloads and are all higher power - the next step up from Estes is Aerotech. Aerotech makes a line of single use AP motors and they also make a line of reloadable motor casings and reloads for them. As mentioned, the reloads are cheaper to fly. Downside is that if you lose the model, you lose the casing which is a lot more expensive to replace than single use motors.

Single use motors come in D, E, F and G sizes. They can be a bit trickier to light off than black powder motors as the igniter has to go all the way in and light the delay. If the igniter is not seated properly, the motor will just sit there. There is a bit of a learning curve on this. Single use motors generally come in 18, 24 and 29mm diameters.

RMS (or reloadable motor systems) are a bit more versatile, and come in both Sport and High Power varieties. The sport versions come in 18, 24 and 29mm sizes and there are a LOT of reloads available for those motors. You literally have to build your motor before you fly the rocket, but they aren't too difficult as long as you follow the instructions to the letter (don't skips steps or try to do if from memory - doing so insures that your motor will fail, and usually rather spectacularly). As far as I know, only Aerotech makes the sport reload casings and reloads for them.

High Power motors are another animal altogether. They start at 29mm and go up from there. I'm only just getting into this area, so I don't know too much about it.

As for Certification, you need to be certified to buy and fly H motors and higher (and a few G motors that have more propellant than the low power limit). To certify level one, you have to build and fly a rocket using an H motor, have that flight witnessed by at least one certified person and get the rocket back safely so it could fly again. But you don't need to be certified (although certifiable might help considering the costs! :p) to fly sport AP motors or most of the single use motors (I believe they do make ONE single use I motor that does need certification to buy).

Check out Value Rockets for a lot of cool stuff to drool over:

https://www.valuerockets.com/
 
I totally understand where you are coming from (as do many others here).

I was at that point when I got back into the hobby during the winter of 2009.
Was feeling EXACTLY the same way.

I say, just take it slow, and enjoy the ride! You'll be up to speed in no time.

If you are not a member of a local club, I would encourage you to become one. There are usually lots of nice folks, many of which will make great teachers to guide you along.

The folks here on this forum are an absolutely wonderful resource to have. Feel free to ask, and ask often!
 
To understand the basics of impulse and the motor impulse codes, one of the best resources is the Handbook of Model Rocketry, 7th Edition.

Here is a link that explains motor selection:

https://www.info-central.org/?article=230

Another method of determining motors is via software, such as RockSim. You do not need to get this, but some of the methods used electronically can be used manually.

[YOUTUBE]dTasgUwLau8[/YOUTUBE]

If you are going to fly a BT80 to 2000 feet, I would recommend a 29mm motor (classified by case diameter measured in millimeters). You can use either a single-use or reloadable system. Both AeroTech and Cesaroni are commercial motor makers that many flyers use.

Greg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Holy Moly, thanks guys. Way more knowledge than I expected! But Greatly Appreciated!
Weight wise, not sure, cuz none are built yet, not even started. Have several in the planning stage that I will build, but I wanted to learn more than single D engines. Staging is nothing new, cluster would be and that was going to be my next step, but that can get expensive too.
I will check out the sites you have suggested and try and catch up, and see if there is a rocket club in my area.
I've watched a whole lot of wonderful launches on You Tube. Some with white smoke, some with thick black smoke. I'm guessing the black stuff is high power cuz ya can see dirt flyin when it takes off.
Thank you all very much, at least I'm less confused than I was couple hours ago, and have a direction!
JEA
 
Find an online vendor that sells Aerotech motors and look through those. Besides the variety of motor sizes and designations made by Aerotech, if you mix in the motors by other manufacturers then it gets even more confusing. Limiting your browsing to just one manufacturer will make it a little easier to start out, and Aerotech makes a good variety of motors from D on up.

When looking at motors you don't have to get hung up in the exact numbers. Just recognize that within a certain class of motors, such as "H" motors, you can find some that have high thrust but short burn times and you can find others that have lower thrust but have longer burn times. So when you see the range of numbers for each motor class, then you can look at any individual motor and sort of understand what its thrust characteristics are.

Another thing you might do is look at the rocket kit listings on apogee. For most of the kits they have listed the recommended engines and what altitude you can expect with each engine.
https://www.apogeerockets.com/rocket_vendors.asp
 
RMS 24/40

It offers low intial cost, low cost for the reloads and a decent variety of reloads. It's a great introduction to reloadable motors and APCP. The draw back is that you are limited to low F power. The advantage is that you can use it in any of your current 24mm rockets. D9W,D15T,E11J,E18W,E28T,F12J,F24W and F39T,it's a pretty good selection of loads.

On the other hand for a bit more money the RMS 29/40-120 can take you up to the edge of High power. With reloads like the E16W,E23T,F22J,F40W,F52T,G53FJ,G64W and G76G the variety of loads is just as good as the 24/40. The draw back is that you need atleast a 29mm mount to use. The advantage is MORE POWER.
 
Nope, you can get smokey engines for MPR also. I recently flew an F22 blackjack with thick black smoke. Not quite as impressive, but pretty great for under ten bucks!
 
If you want to build a rocket that truly rocks, get yourself an Estes Big Daddy. Put a 3x24mm motor mount in it (you'll have to modify the through the wall fins some). Make sure all three motor tubes are 3-3/4" long. Then launch it on three E9-4 motors. It might need a bit of nose weight, but the flights are incredible. I actually did this with a tube fin version - I filled the fin slots in, then put seven BT-80 tube fins around it. Oh, and you'll probably want to swap out the plastic chute for a nylon one.

I'm working on my level 1 rocket now - it is gonna be 49" of 3" diameter tube (15 forward, 34 aft with a baffle in the coupler) and six 5" long 3" diameter tube fins. Big Daddy nose cone and 15" nylon chute. It should do about 1000' on an H128W.
 
Not to jump off track, but has anyone built a Q Modeling Rocket?
Are they good? They look good to me but what do I know.
I'd like to get the Viper. I was so proud of mine when I was 12. It was my first truely painted rocket that looked like it was suppose to.
And, it's one I had planned on doing in BT-80.
JEA
 
I think you will have a hard time getting a BT-80 sized rocket to 2000 feet. It can be done, but the BT-80 tubing is just not all that strong unless you reinforce it. That adds weight of course. So unless you have a specific reason for using BT-80 tubing I think you should look around for other materials. A great vendor for rocket parts is Semroc. Go to the page with body tubes and you will be in hog heaven. As others have mentioned there some great mid power kit vendors out there too.
 
Yea, I think you are right Zeus-cat.
I downloaded RocSim and played with the last couple hours. Not much in parts I am very familure with other than the Estes stuff. It wasn't much help unless you look up all the part numbers and know exactly what they are. I think I'm jumping in over my head in an empty pool, based on what I know.
I think someone said earlier, take it slow and easy and that's what I need to do. I have a ton of tubes, cones and all kinds of stuff and I should build what they were intended for.
I want to go above my knowledge of D's, I'm going to start with a basic kit, move up from there. As far at the BT-80 goes, I just think it's a good size. I don't need no 12' rocket, electronics and all that stuff. Simple blastoff and retrieve is fun enough for me now. Maybe I get back to work and life is better I might expand into something bigger.
But I get just as much enjoyment out of building them and doin a nice paint job as flyin em. Just like building things I guess. Always been better with my hands than my mind.
Thanks again everyone, you are all a great bunch of guys!
JEA
 
Consider LOC tubing, stronger then estes and a better match for mid-power. The thicker tubes are heavier but as a result are much stronger and better able to deal with the forces and the extra heat of AP engines and ejection charges.
 
I'm going to respond to several questions in one post. First, I have built the Q-Modeling Nike-X and one of my rocket boys has built the Mars Snooper. Great kits, but there are a lot of parts compared to basic Estes kits. They build pretty light, so an F engine gives them a good ride.

I've been involved with a TARC team the past 3 years and their rockets have typically been BT-80. An F gets them to around 800' carrying an egg. You might get 1000' empty. That's pretty high for the fields we have to recover in which gets to be a BIG consideration if you are using a reloadable engine casing that costs $40 to $60. A G engine in a Aerotech kit (Cheeta) that is a bit smaller than BT-80 will hit 3000+. The Aerotech kits use a thick cardboard tube and plastic fins. That construction easily handles the kick of a G80.

If you are looking at F impulse, the 24mm reloadable is the cheapest way to fly assuming you don't lose the rocket and reload casing. You need to spread the cost of the casing of a dozen flights or more to break even. It is possible to build a rocket with a 29mm mount (which will get you up to the G & H range) and then use an adapter to fly on 24mm F engines when you don't have a big field. That's how the Aerotech kits are laid out.

As someone else has said, above a G requires certification and will probably exceed the weight limit below which you don't need a waiver from the FAA. If you fly with a club, they will get the waiver (permission to fly heavy rockets into the FAA's airspace) and you just go fly. Public Missiles sells some kits with 29mm mounts that could be flown on Fs up through H or I impulse. The kits are relatively expensive, but rugged.

Someone mentioned modifying the Big Daddy. You can fly it unmodified on the Aerotech 24mm reloadables. An F39-6 is just right for it and would make a relatively cheap foray into the realm of reloads.
 
I was in your position back in 1997. I saw a Silver Comet at a hobby store and I was re-hooked into rocketry. Then I found all these neat things like reloadable motors and Big Motors (F,G,H & up). Wow. Met a few people. Went to a few launches. Liked the people. Then thought, why not get my Level 1. I thought " I'll never go bigger" than 29mm Motors. The after building a LOC Precision I-ROC, my buddy said " ya know a J350 in that will get you a Level 2". Now I'm pretty sure that's where I'll stop. But I do have a PML 1/2 scale Patriot. And you can fit a 98mm motor in those pretty easily..........Hmmmmmm. Can you smell a Level 3? Well not yet, but someday :wink:. Maybe when the economy is better and we go back on OT at work. Maybe........
 
Woody's Workshop said:
Not to jump off track, but has anyone built a Q Modeling Rocket?
Are they good? They look good to me but what do I know.
I'd like to get the Viper. I was so proud of mine when I was 12. It was my first truely painted rocket that looked like it was suppose to.
And, it's one I had planned on doing in BT-80.
JEA
Click to expand...

Yes I have.I built the XP_Raptor..Flies great too...Q-Modeling makes some really fine kits..High quality components..Well worth the price..And being MEGA sized makes them easier to track and find..I don't think you will be disappointed in a QModeling kit.;)
 
Woody, you may want to try the book "Modern High Power Rocketry 2". It's not cheap at about $35, but it's incredibly helpful. I myself just got back into rocketry after about 10 years. Finished high school and forgot about them until the beginning of this season. I can't even explain how helpful this book was. It goes over the impulse ratings of motors, thrust to weight ratios, how to build a reload, building and setting up an av-bay and electronics and more! Totally worth the investment

I don't want to post a link to the book because you can find it on many sites and I don't want to leave anybody out, but you if you do a google search you can choose the shop you're most loyal to ;)
 
Thank you kindly Mike, I think that would be a very good idea since my knowledge so far has only been with Estes products, going back 40 years.
I'm hoping the library will have one to check out. Life was once much better, with the econemy and job market the way it is, $35 is a lot right now just for a book, but well worth looking into maybe finding a used copy or something, or if someone here has one they would sell if they have no use for it, or perhaps let me barrow it. Have a copy machine, I could copy it and send it back. That would be worth paying someone shipping for, for sure.
 
Woody's Workshop said:
Not to jump off track, but has anyone built a Q Modeling Rocket?
Are they good? They look good to me but what do I know.
I'd like to get the Viper. I was so proud of mine when I was 12. It was my first truely painted rocket that looked like it was suppose to.
And, it's one I had planned on doing in BT-80.
JEA
Click to expand...

I'm in the finishing stage of their Vega kit. Right now its in its skivvies (primer) and I might fly it once that way, before I put the work into finishing it pretty.
I enjoyed the kit, and also plan on getting a Viper.

I will add that their motor mount/fin support is a pain, but I can see where it will be sturdy. Just go slow; trial fit the pieces before you glue and you will be fine.
 
Woody,

If you haven't already done so, check to see if there's a rocketry club that launches near you. At a club launch, you'll not only get a chance to launch your own rockets - and watch others launch theirs, but you'll get to see the variety of motors used and to ask questions of those using them. Sometimes a vendor will be onsite selling motors.

-- Roger
 
Best advice I can give is to find a club to fly with, and use the local tribal knowledge. Mid power is ALOT of fun, and not horribly expensive. You can fly rockets of impressive sizes with great smoke, fire, and sound without having to be certified, and it's a heck of alot cheaper. Get an Aerotech 29mm 40-120 casing, and that will handle pretty much all of your mid power motor needs. That case is invaluable to the mid power flyer. I also have the 24mm Aerotech casing, and use it in my bigger Estes birds (like the Big Daddy, Executioner, Mean Machine). There is no replacement for the knowledge and experience of those you fly with, though. Can not say it enough - try to find a local club to fly with and learn from.
 
Yea, Muskegon is the closest, bit far for me though. I'm like in the middle of nothing as far as rocketeers goes. I started a thread to see if anyone was close to me on the board. So far, it looks like I'm the only one within a 75 to 100 mile radius. :(
 
Woody's Workshop said:
Yea, Muskegon is the closest, bit far for me though. I'm like in the middle of nothing as far as rocketeers goes. I started a thread to see if anyone was close to me on the board. So far, it looks like I'm the only one within a 75 to 100 mile radius. :(
Click to expand...

Join the NAR. At the same time, let NAR HQ know that you want to get in touch with other rocketry folks in your area and possible help them form a club (a local NAR Section). Provide NAR HQ with a list or range of zip codes and they will give you a printout of all the NAR Members in those zip codes and you can contact them to get togehter for a launch and see if they want to form an NAR Section.
 

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