LOC 4-29 ss - cluster igniter question

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It's a great model. I've actually never done 4 in mine for some reason...pairs of F50Ts, G64Ws and H195NTs have been great. Used FirstFires on the G64 and H195NT flights. I want to try (4) of the new G74W EconoMax. I will either bite the bullet and try the 4 FirstFire Mini's that will come with them or maybe ground test them to see what they do and use Rocketflite MF-12 wires and ClusterFire pyrogen.
 
It's a great model. I've actually never done 4 in mine for some reason...pairs of F50Ts, G64Ws and H195NTs have been great. Used FirstFires on the G64 and H195NT flights. I want to try (4) of the new G74W EconoMax. I will either bite the bullet and try the 4 FirstFire Mini's that will come with them or maybe ground test them to see what they do and use Rocketflite MF-12 wires and ClusterFire pyrogen.
Did you plug 2 motor tubes on the SS and if so can you safely remove the ejection charge from 2 of the motors? I think you can but I havent done it.
I want to try the 4 G motor launch also...That twin H-195NT flight sounds pretty cool.
 
Did you plug 2 motor tubes on the SS and if so can you safely remove the ejection charge from 2 of the motors? I think you can but I havent done it.
I want to try the 4 G motor launch also...That twin H-195NT flight sounds pretty cool.

Yes. I just use some old spent Econojet casings with some poopy clay in the nozzle and ejection well to prevent any gasses from escaping. Removing ejection charge from live motors is as simple as pulling off the cap and dumping the BP out. Just do it carefully with the new motors that use the rubbery red cap...carefully pull out with needle nose plyers. If you really tug on those they'll rip out and BP will go everywhere!

2xH195NT was definitely it's best flight. I like regular Blue Thunder better though. (2) H220Ts airstarting some DMS H115 dark Matters would be sweet, but I really also want to try (2) DMS G125T airstarting (2) G25W for a "classic" style flight. I have a terrible short vid of the H195NT flight. Let me see if I can upload it real fast, will edit it in.

EDIT--here ya go:
[video=youtube;M4I8QHwEuqY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4I8QHwEuqY[/video]
 
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Awesome:) and thanks for the info. Looks like I can ad a 4-G80-13 (137ns each) in the 4-29ss launch to my list. I might beef up the motor tubes a bit. something to think about.
 
I love greens...but I think I'm done clustering them for awhile.I got both H250G's here...but #2 came up way late. 1881' at 250mph...
Gonna stick to blues. Dan's got me wanting to do H238 and H220's.

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Ha! I have the means (well, no MAD) but it will get the PET2 and RRC2!

I expect to send my LOC 4-29SS up on to 2 G76-7G motors Oct 25th at the SARA launch and there seems to be a bit of discussion about starting these in a cluster.
My thought is that I should 1) Beef up the first fire jr. with additional pyrogen.
2) also assure the igniters ride along a bit so they can finish there burn.
I think its time for some igniter testing. Going for a little hotter and a little longer burn. We want a straight, safe launch.:dark:View attachment 187022
 
G76's can be hard to get going at the same time. You're going to need better than first fire for sure. Plan clear lines for a failed ignition.
 
I think I really need to be safe and scratch the Green Burns and do the twin G64's. Looks like the Barracuda is getting a G76. BUT!!!! What is the problem with lighting them? Is it the igniter?View attachment 187031
 
It's the propellant. Even with magnelite ignitors I can't get them to go at the same time. I can be reasonably sure I'll get both. But the greens come to pressure slightly longer in some. You can minimize this by getting motors out of the same lot, but it just seems to be a characteristic of greens. Whites do it too, my I200's didn't come up at the same time. Most motors have a slight lag from ignition to hitting pressure. You want motors where that lag on both will overlap on the rail. too fast like W9 and the rocket is gone before #2 has a chance... too slow and you get my H250G cluster, where #2 comes up to pressure at 30 feet and it hooks, or just never lights.

I wouldn't say it's unsafe....you just need to be careful. Good ignitors, and long long leads. I use the red caps on the nozzles and it'll take the ignitor for a ride until it goes. I hit one G76G cluster with magnelight and 2 foot igniters wrapped in parallel on a loose whip. I feel good about that setup, but it did do a little wiggle going up.

Blues seem to be the sweet spot for clustering. F42, G80 and G138 I got both sides to light on the rail. My next flight will likely be H238T's

I haven't tried it, but red's seems to lag on ignition too much to cluster well.

I haven't tried white Gs, others seem to have good luck with them. Fresher will be better. Also sand the cores on the upper grain and leave the dust in.
 
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Nice idea-Sanding the core, I am really wanting to fly the G76's(they are like a step up from the G64 to me) so I will run it all thru my head a few more times. Test my igniters and come launch time if all is well, the 12v battery at full charge, and confidence abounds -it will go.
If it was just me out there no problem but gotta be safe with families, right!
Thanks for the info, I look forward to more.View attachment 187049
 
If you're going to do a lot of clusters, I highly recommend getting into these, each kit will literally make hundreds of igniters - https://www.rocketflite.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=61 Longer wires are better. I've got 24's, wish I got 48's.

Here's my successful G76G flight. I put the red caps over the wires so they stay inside until the motor comes up to pressure. I'm not sure how the balance is on the 4-29, but mine hooks drastically on one motor. Still a safe flight, with safe ejection, but much less than ideal. I make sure to load on the pad so that if either motor comes up alone, the rocket will go in a safe direction. From previous failures I know it doesn't roll around, so straight lines left and right of the pad do it for me.

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Failed flight: not terrible or scary.
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If you filed/scuffed the grain and painted the top of the slot with pyrogen you could probably get greens to go pretty quick. Blues are definitely the easiest to light but the harder to ignite propellants look so much cooler! Green and red specifically.
 
Thanks guys..Great advise and pics. Love those mach diamonds. :) and I will be checking that site.
here is a pic of my 4-29 on (2) G64-7W. Click the image for a cool big pic
View attachment 187061
 
:dark:Okay.. I have done a couple tests on igniters and I now have 2 that will fire up really well. They are pretty HOT (Like a double which is really what it is) and burn a bit longer than first fr jr's fitting easily thru the fuel grains. So on launch day I will "scuff" the top of the top grain, line up so it goes off in a safe direction either way just in case and go for it. I feel good about it now.:)
 
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I dipped 24 igniters yesterday and conducted a test with 4x on a clip whip... I was pleased that all 4 fired up on a 12 volt battery. However, you can clearly see that igniter #2 fired up about 0.5-1.0 second before the other 3.

I still think this would be OK. Even if one G motor fired up right away, it would be a slow acceleration up the rail (considering the rocket will weigh +/- 5lbs). This would have given time for the other 3 to ignite. What do you think?....

[video=youtube;w6s4qoHcNCM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6s4qoHcNCM[/video]
I am wondering if you did check the resistance on these or on subsequent starters as Marcus brought up an interesting thought. I have decided not only to check the continuity but also the resistance on my cluster launches from here on out. Any other thoughts about that or how to get them going at the same time?
Ed
 
I am wondering if you did check the resistance on these or on subsequent starters as Marcus brought up an interesting thought. I have decided not only to check the continuity but also the resistance on my cluster launches from here on out. Any other thoughts about that or how to get them going at the same time?
Ed

Those are all the necessary steps. And don't forget augmenting the top grain with pyrogen. Really helps. And extra lead slack/attach igniters so they fly with the rocket until the motors light.secure with plugs or wraparound retention.
 
Nice flight! Will you be flying again this weekend and what altitude do you expect with 4xG64w's?

Hope to see it fly...
Spicer
 
Those are all the necessary steps. And don't forget augmenting the top grain with pyrogen. Really helps. And extra lead slack/attach igniters so they fly with the rocket until the motors light.secure with plugs or wraparound retention.
Howdy Marcus.. I have been checking the continuity ever since i got my fine shiny new multi tester from Radio Shack:grin: BUt the resistance i havnt. Your right, It seems that all starters need to read the same if they are expected to fire at the same time. Also i suppose the clips and connections all need checking. Yes?
Havin a Blast
ED
 
Todays Cluster launch info. LOC 4-29SS. Twin G-76 greens. Both motors lit. No good pics , Just to doggone fast. But they didnt fire exactly at the same time so it arced over a tad,great altitude though. I believe after looking now at some motor graphs that the G-76 may light and hit harder at first than say-- a G-80, even though the 80 may light easier and have a bit higher average thrust, the 76 hits pressure quicker,therefor in a lighter rocket gets it moving off the rail quicker. Its a split of a 1/2 second - the rocket off the rail by then and the second one hits.(I believe it is a very difficult problem to light clusters at the exact time) In a heavier rocket, the delay may not be as noticable since the rocket is still being guided by the rail or rod as it begins to lift off. In my 4-29SS I have had great straight flights with the G-53 and G-64 reloads. I really dig those greens but I think in single motor flights from here on out. Thanks everyone for all the great advice on STARTERS and other techniques to get those motors burning.:) In the end a great launch, some nice comments and perfect recovery. Next time 2 G-53-7's and installing a 50" black chute for a nice deployment view and slow recovery keeping the altitude down a bit.
 
I have a 4 inch "Deuce's Wild" upscale that I flew on a pair of I357 Blue Thunder reloads with a very similar flight profile. One engine lit immediately and it rapidly departed the rail. I had 6 ft. leads on the igniter and the second engine came up to pressure 10 ft above the rail giving a successfull but uneven flight. It twisted on the rail damaging the rail buttons. I am going to modify it to take a half inch rod for its next flight and try a pair a CTI Smoky Sams.
 
Just wondering, can you fly two G's without L1? I think this rocket would fly great on 4 H54 mellows.
 
I have a 4 inch "Deuce's Wild" upscale that I flew on a pair of I357 Blue Thunder reloads with a very similar flight profile. One engine lit immediately and it rapidly departed the rail. I had 6 ft. leads on the igniter and the second engine came up to pressure 10 ft above the rail giving a successfull but uneven flight. It twisted on the rail damaging the rail buttons. I am going to modify it to take a half inch rod for its next flight and try a pair a CTI Smoky Sams.
That sounds great. You all sure had some great launches yesterday. BIG motors and BIG rockets not to mention the electronics.Its amazing how high you can see up there in that clear blue sky:). Looking forward to Nov. and started a motor order already so I can be sure of delivery.
 
Just wondering, can you fly two G's without L1? I think this rocket would fly great on 4 H54 mellows.
Yes, You can have a total of 320ns or less of total installed impulse (2-G-76 motors = 230ns) there is a weight limit also and your club may have other restrictions. Read-test- read and test some more-Fly safe:)
 
That's really surprising, good to know (I am L1 now though). Odd you can fly 2 G's with more thrust and impulse than a lot of H's but you can't fly H's (160-320 ns) without L1.
 
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