Level 1 RMS Motors

[ghost]

I'm planning on getting level 1 cert this summer. I want to get an RMS case that I can launch at my local MPR club launches as well as certify on.
I was looking at a Rouse-Tech 38/120 Easy Access case.
I already have the 29mm E, F, and G Hobby Line case.
It seems like the following reloads work with the Easy Access:
G61W
G67R
H238T

Any suggestions? Does this plan sound good? THANKS!

 

[kandsrockets]

Originally posted by ghost
I'm planning on getting level 1 cert this summer. I want to get an RMS case that I can launch at my local MPR club launches as well as certify on.
I was looking at a Rouse-Tech 38/120 Easy Access case.
I already have the 29mm E, F, and G Hobby Line case.
It seems like the following reloads work with the Easy Access:
G61W
G67R
H238T

Any suggestions? Does this plan sound good? THANKS!

H238T is a 29mm reload. The 38/120 is G61W and G67R to go to a H you will need 38/240 reloads H128W, H148R, H242T

 

[uncle_vanya]

Look in this thread for motors by case.pdf The last update is almost completely up to date. There are a few motors that are not listed but none of them are L1 as far as I recall.

The 29/180 and 29/240 cases are very popular. The current L1 Aerotech promo is for an H128 which fits the 29/180 case.

 

[ghost]

Is the G75 considered HPR? You can't launch HPR where I launch

Basically, I want a casing for MPR and HPR

 

[jsdemar]

Originally posted by ghost
Is the G75 considered HPR? You can't launch HPR where I launch

G75 and G33 AT motors, and G60 and G79 Cesaroni motors are HPR (>62.5g of propellant). And anything >80 average thrust are HPR. See the "combined list" on the NAR website.

-John

 

[loopy]

Originally posted by ghost
Is the G75 considered HPR? You can't launch HPR where I launch

Basically, I want a casing for MPR and HPR

I don't think there's on case that holds both MPR and HPR loads. The 29/120 and 38/120 cases only hold G MPR loads. For HPR loads, you need bigger cases (180 in 29mm and 240 in 38mm).

 

[DaveCombs]

Originally posted by ghost
Is the G75 considered HPR? You can't launch HPR where I launch

The easy answer to this question is to ask the people who run your launch site what their definition of "HPR" is. That will dictate what impulse you can use (assuming their definition is impulse-based). If they're wishy-washy about their definition then either pin them down to one, or tell them what you intend to fly ahead of time and let them decide before you get there.

 

[MarkM]

Originally posted by ghost
Is the G75 considered HPR? You can't launch HPR where I launch

Basically, I want a casing for MPR and HPR

The G75 is HPR because it has more than 62.5g of propellant. You can't certify with it (L1 certs must be with an H or I), but you need to be level 1 certified to fly and to purchase it. It is NOT an MPR motor.

There is no such case that accomodates Level 1 HPR motors AND MPR motors. However, the closures of Dr, Rocket/AT/Rouse-Tech HPR cases work with all of their HPR cases (of the same diameter). So, you can get a 29/120 or 38/120 complete motor hardware set (includes case, and both closures) that will accomodate G loads to fly at your MPR field. Then for only $15-$20 more get just the case (the tube) you'll need for your L1 motor (29/180 or 38/240).

 

[uncle_vanya]

Originally posted by MarkM
The G75 is HPR because it has more than 62.5g of propellant. You can't certify with it (L1 certs must be with an H or I), but you need to be level 1 certified to fly and to purchase it.

Not quite true. You do not need any HPR certification to purchase or fly it. You need a LEUP due to ATF regulations for motors with > 62.5g of APCP. LEUP can be obtained by someone who has no connection to any rocketry organization and has no certification. In addition, neither NAR nor TRA require an L1 Cert for a G75 flight. I'm pretty sure this is true with CAR and other international clubs also.

Incidentally, if his club does not have an FAA Waiver, then either they need to be sure that his rocket is either under 1 lb and uses less than 4 oz of propellant - or - the rocket has to weigh less than 3.3 lbs (but more than 1lb) and use less than 4.4oz of propellant. In the latter case, they have to call the nearest tower under FAR 101 regs and give notification.

Originally posted by MarkM
There is no such case that accomodates Level 1 HPR motors AND MPR motors. However, the closures of Dr, Rocket/AT/Rouse-Tech HPR cases work with all of their HPR cases (of the same diameter). So, you can get a 29/120 or 38/120 complete motor hardware set (includes case, and both closures) that will accomodate G loads to fly at your MPR field. Then for only $15-$20 more get just the case (the tube) you'll need for your L1 motor (29/180 or 38/240).

True and useful advice I hadn't thought about pointing out. Also of importance the longer cases in both 38mm and 29mm require the addition of a seal disc - just one is needed but he may eventually need to purchase this separately depending on how he picks up the cases.

 

[jsdemar]

Originally posted by DaveCombs
The easy answer to this question is to ask the people who run your launch site what their definition of "HPR" is. That will dictate what impulse you can use (assuming their definition is impulse-based). If they're wishy-washy about their definition then either pin them down to one, or tell them what you intend to fly ahead of time and let them decide before you get there.

NFPA1127 and the NAR/TRA safety codes define what HPR is, not the organizer of the launch, unless it's an independent launch.

From https://www.nar.org/hpcert/NARhpdetails.html :
A person needs high power certification if he:

Launches models containing multiple motors with a total installed impulse of 320.01 Newton-seconds or more, or

Launches models containing a single motor with a total installed impulse of 160.01 Newton-seconds or more, or

Launches rockets that weigh more than 53 ounces (1500 grams), or

Launches models powered by rocket motors not classified as model rocket motors per NFPA 1122, e.g.:
* Average thrust in excess of 80.0 Newtons
* Contains in excess of 2.2 ounces (62.5 grams) of propellant
* Hybrid rocket motors

 

[deandome]

Um...if you can't launch HPR (whatever it ends up being defined as at your club)...why on earth would you ever need to/want to certify Level 1??

That's pretty much H128 and up, if I recall correctly...which will NEVER be construed as anything other than full-blown HP (wlll, maybe at LDRS/BALLS they'll laugh at your puny-ness ).

Now, if there are other HP clubs/places you're looking into that might be far away...I can see why it might make sense to start looking into this. But seeing that you're probably not lucky enough to have a Wildman at your launches (who 'sponsors' HP flights so non-LEUP flyers can do whatever they want), you can't even plan on just cruising out to the wilderness and launching solo...as it'll be almost impossible to buy motors to do so.

Unless your club allows H-I launches, there's really zero need to get certified...s'pecially these days where most people are supposedly needing to get LEUPS for anything Level 1.

 

[uncle_vanya]

Originally posted by Deandome
Um...if you can't launch HPR (whatever it ends up being defined as at your club)...why on earth would you ever need to/want to certify Level 1??

...edited for clarity...

Unless your club allows H-I launches, there's really zero need to get certified...s'pecially these days where most people are supposedly needing to get LEUPS for anything Level 1.

I expect he was thinking that if a case existed that worked with G's and H's then he could fly the G's at the home field and H's when he went elsewhere? Of course since there is not a case like this in APCP motors he's out of luck.

Isn't there a hybrid that's G-H-I on the same fuel grain?

 

[11bravo]

Originally posted by uncle_vanya
Look in this thread for motors by case.pdf The last update is almost completely up to date. There are a few motors that are not listed but none of them are L1 as far as I recall....snip

All right, what's missing?

 

[doug_man_sams]

Originally posted by ghost
I'm planning on getting level 1 cert this summer. I want to get an RMS case that I can launch at my local MPR club launches as well as certify on.

You can't launch HPR where I launch

You can't launch HPR why? Is it because you don't have a waiver? Or because there are no HPR cert'd fliers in your club to run an HPR lunch? Or some other reason?

Keep in mind that you can fly a handful of HPR motors, including some H's, under FAA LMR rules - ie, without a waiver. Only FAA notification is required. (IE, you tell them; you're not asking for permission; you don't need it.)

These would be motors that are 125g or less in propellant weight in rockets weighing 3.3 pounds or less fully loaded. Of course, you will still need HPR cert'd fliers to conduct the launch (at a sanctioned event) but it is possible to fly and cert HPR at an otherwise mid-power event.

The AT H128W, H165R, H238T, H180W, H210R and H220T are some examples that are under 125g. These would use the 29/180 and 29/240 cases.

Cutting things even tighter, you can fly and cert HPR without FAA notification if your rocket's 1 pound or less fully loaded AND your propellant mass is less than 113g. The H128W, H165R, H238T and H210R fit this requirement. It's possible. People have done it. The only catch is that you need to build real light, and have really good eyes, 'cause it's going way up

Maybe I'm not really understanding your needs, but what you've described is HPR that can be flown at LMR events, and this is how you do it.

Doug

 

[uncle_vanya]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
All right, what's missing?

Sorry - I should have posted over in the original thread but here goes:

Aerotech
G71R (29/40-120)
G69N (38/120)
J825R (38/1080)

I'm not certain that something else didn't slip by but these are the one's that I think are missing. Nothing new since the last update of the list from CTI, AMW, or LOKI yet but several hints of things to come.

If you update the list could you post it in both PDF and Excel format? (Or csv)

 

[doug_man_sams]

Originally posted by uncle_vanya
In addition, neither NAR nor TRA require an L1 Cert for a G75 flight.

If it has more than 62.5g of propellant, it is an HPR motor. At sanctioned launches, it should be flown only by certified fliers. Do the SCO's / RSO's always catch this? No, but that doesn't make it LPR.

Doug

 

[11bravo]

Originally posted by uncle_vanya
Sorry - I should have posted over in the original thread but here goes:

Aerotech
G71R (29/40-120)
G69N (38/120)
J825R (38/1080)

I'm not certain that something else didn't slip by but these are the one's that I think are missing. Nothing new since the last update of the list from CTI, AMW, or LOKI yet but several hints of things to come.

If you update the list could you post it in both PDF and Excel format? (Or csv)

Wilco.
Wait for it.

 

[11bravo]

Excel file and pdf zipped.