Launching From Off the Ground

[Lentamental]

I am wondering what the restrictions are on launching from a launch pad not on the ground. I am working my way towards rockoons, and curious what the NAR safety code has to say about that. I'm well aware that for the final launch of an N (or maybe bigger) staged to an N will have to be well out in international waters otherwise there will be way too much paperwork. I am asking more on the low scale side of things. Can I go to my local club launch and launch a normal mid to high power rocket from a launchpad not secured to the ground?

 

[ClayD]

1. there are no restrictions for balloon lauches regulatory wise. Safety codes address safe distance, so if the balloon exceeds the safe distance i am sure your okay(a guess)

2. international waters launching... Be verry affraid... mostly there are international agreements for HIGH altitude flights... simply a intercontinental flight may still be overhead..

so its not excuse for no paperwork....and you could get in big trouble when you get back! N to N is pretty small, even from a balloon, so shouldnt be that hard to get okayed.. even if you went out into "coastal waters..." and had a larger recovery area than possible on land...


2. talk to your club. this more than likely affects land owners, and thier own liability. Launching from moored balloons may be a NO NO..

 

[troj]

1. there are no restrictions for balloon lauches regulatory wise. Safety codes address safe distance, so if the balloon exceeds the safe distance i am sure your okay(a guess)

FAR 101 covers both the rockets and the unmanned balloons.

-Kevin

 

[ClayD]

FAR 101 covers both the rockets and the unmanned balloons.

-Kevin

I meant not regulated from launching rockets from them... I sounded like they werent regualted at all, Thanks for the correction there...

 

[Lentamental]

I remember there being some addendum for particularly light balloons (below 4lb payload?) A loophole used by lots of the high altitude weather balloon projects that have been getting so much press coverage recently. As I understand it, so long as the payload is under 4lbs, there are almost no restrictions. That could be a good place for me to start (its also a lot cheaper to start light!) before working out the rest of the paperwork.

 

[bobkrech]

FAR 101 covers both the rockets and the unmanned balloons.

-Kevin

Repeat. FAR 101 covers both the rockets and the unmanned balloons.



Just a few issues I identified.

• Over 125 grams of propellant, or over 1.5 kg would require a waiver for a class 2 rocket.
• Payload weight and sectional density of a Class 2 rocket payload will most likely trigger additional balloon requirements.
• Requirement for vertical launch may be an issue as well as insuring the launch will not interfere with other air traffic without radar is problematic for a class 2 rocket suspended from a balloon.

Bob

 

[MarkII]

A quote from Peter Alway's Rockets of the World, 4th ed., p. 122, might also be of some relevance here. Regarding the Deacon Rockoon, a small sounding rocket that was launched from a high altitude balloon, "Because of the random aiming of a Rockoon, it was necessary to launch Rockoons from ships, hundreds of miles from populated areas." (Emphasis added.)

The Deacon Rockoon was similar in size to many HPRs that are being flown at club launches today: 6.25" in diameter, 12' 3.5" long. Yet they had to take it out to the middle of the ocean to launch it safely. (OK, it did have the equivalent of a P motor, though.) Food for thought.

When it's 20,000 feet up after taking a ride of 30-45 minutes in a rocking gondola to get there and you are about to press the fire button on your radio transmitter, can you really tell where your rocket is pointing, or even whether it is still pointing skyward?

 

[dixontj93060]

Seems like with some telemetry you could validate near-vertical orientation.

In addition, the balloon structure itself could work to your advantage in this instance; I'm thinking three balloons attached to points of weighted triangular framework where the rocket is in a center sling or rigid cradle assembly.

 

[Micromeister]

Seems like with some telemetry you could validate near-vertical orientation.

In addition, the balloon structure itself could work to your advantage in this instance; I'm thinking three balloons attached to points of weighted triangular framework where the rocket is in a center sling or rigid cradle assembly.

Precisely how I've planned on launching a Scale model of the Far-side sounding rocket.
The difference is my plan is to use a teather/anchored accending from a payout reel attached to the cradle so the scale model is launched during accent but before reaching the end of the teathered cable/anchor line. removing the need for RC controls.
My research indicates as long as the Balloons are teathered and below a certain overall altitude, no additional waiver or authority is required. Sort of like all the advertising blimps and balloons seen so often around Shopping center openings and special events.

 

[troj]

Moored balloons are also covered by FAR 101, and there are limitations and requirements on them, as well.

-Kevin

 

[ClayD]

14 CFR part 101 is accessible on the FAA website, I advise you print it out so you have a copy on hand (dated-showing the faa source) by your browser for what your doing.
I have done this before in instances people thought all rockets were fireworks, and fall under firework regulation. This proved that model rockets are considered - unmanned rockets ; at a model scale.

The moored balloon launches i've seen done, have all been below 50', and were highschooler experiments.

One thing your going to run into , is when you get out of escarpment and ground effect, and up to unrestricted "wind" your going to be nice and calm wehre your standing - but getting tossed around a bit on your ballon.

I have often thought an ring with an eliptical cross section, (large horizontal - thin vertcial ) mylar balloon would be the best for a barge hoisting up a launch platform.

I would mount the launch platform to a dual axis swivel, and use an R/C gyro (used in learing to fly rc) to provide verticle stabilization.. you can come by this fairly cheaply. you could even make your own gravity field to buffer the wind movement, and then use the r/c gyro for magnus drift correction.

test low, and gradually move up...

since it looks like your going to stay in the Class 1 rockets for now. theres little doubt i would worry about your altitude. Since the faa doesnt adress the rocket altitude. (but, if your doing something that puts the rocket able to achieve above 10,000 feet, i would start notifying ATC in the class 2 requirements. (this may not be required. but is a good responsible thing to do... )

 

[MarkII]

Two thoughts:

1. If you keep the altitude of the balloon low enough to avoid FAA issues, then what's the point? Will raising the launch pad 50' into the air make any appreciable difference in the flight?

2. All of the mechanics involved in keeping the platform stable beg the question: why bother? Telemetry? Servos? Gyro stabilization?

For a whole lot less money and a whole lot less hassle, you can just drive up into the mountains and launch your rocket from up there. It will accomplish the same thing - you'll be launching from an elevated platform.

I'm not arguing against doing it, but I have yet to see anyone provide a compelling justification for it. What would this accomplish that couldn't be done more easily and cheaply by other means?
.

 

[Lentamental]

For a whole lot less money and a whole lot less hassle, you can just drive up into the mountains and launch your rocket from up there. It will accomplish the same thing - you'll be launching from an elevated platform..

You'd be hard pressed to find a mountain 100,000' tall. The idea is not to launch from an elevated platform, but to develop balloon launching equipment, while avoiding as many waivers as possible. Then, once you've got all the bugs worked out, scale the whole thing up and launch into space. Being not mounted on the ground provides many challenges that each need to be addressed, and if you take it a step at a time, each one can be addressed individually (and at much lower cost.)

 

[bobkrech]

You'd be hard pressed to find a mountain 100,000' tall. The idea is not to launch from an elevated platform, but to develop balloon launching equipment, while avoiding as many waivers as possible. Then, once you've got all the bugs worked out, scale the whole thing up and launch into space. Being not mounted on the ground provides many challenges that each need to be addressed, and if you take it a step at a time, each one can be addressed individually (and at much lower cost.)

Young Luke.

Learn from the past. Go back to the literature and read. Take a few physics and economics courses. Do the math. If the scaleup is feasible, it would be done.

Otherwise you will remain a starving college student forever.

Bob, A gray haired learned Star Warrior.

 

[RoyAtl]

I am wondering what the restrictions are on launching from a launch pad not on the ground. I am working my way towards rockoons, and curious what the NAR safety code has to say about that. I'm well aware that for the final launch of an N (or maybe bigger) staged to an N will have to be well out in international waters otherwise there will be way too much paperwork. I am asking more on the low scale side of things. Can I go to my local club launch and launch a normal mid to high power rocket from a launchpad not secured to the ground?

There have been model and high power launches from balloons in the past.

A model rocket launch from a balloon was attempted (I don't remember if it was successful) at NARAM 13 in Aberdeen, MD in 1971 as part of the Research and Development event. I have some grainy super-8 film somewhere of the balloon climbing.

There were a couple of high power balloon projects in 1997 and 1998. I think they were done by a Huntsville, Alabama group, and IIRC they launched at Wallops Island, and somewhere near Mobile. Both projects originated from barges in the ocean, and they had cooperation from NASA. Maybe someone from HARA knows more about this.