Landowner Discussion - What to Bring?

Shop deals on ebay
madcow rocketry
eggtimer rocketry
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Buckeye

Buckeye

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
3,538
Reaction score
1,675
I may get permission to launch from a farm field. The property size looks suitable for Class 2 High Power Rockets. This site would be for personal launches with a few friends. Right now, another friend is the intermediary between me and the landowner, but we are trying to set up a face-to-face meeting. Any suggestions for how to steer the discussion or supplemental information to bring along that will make the landowner comfortable? I am NAR L2.

Assuming the landowner permission goes well, then I will start the FAA and COA process. To compound matters, the site is within 5 nautical miles of a small, rural airport and also seemingly within a MOA per the SkyVector map. Are these two facts likely to be big sticking points with the FAA?
 
I have found in dealing with the FAA that it depends on who you deal with.
One person will stick to the letter of the rules and the next will be lax.
What altitude you request may also influence the outcome.
So, send in the forms and try your luck.
 
If you’re affiliated with an NAR section, you can request that an insurance certificate be provided for that specific landowner and location. Informing the landowner of the national organization affiliation, the safety code you will follow, and insurance opportunity may be persuasive. See #18 and #19 of the NAR insurance FAQ: https://www.nar.org/safety-information/insurance-questions/

It may also help to indicate that having access to the site will enable you to share educational experiences for students (4H, scouts, STEM, collegiate rocketry teams, etc.) That can work for or against you, depending on the person, and how you present it, of course.

The Salesmanship and Sealing the Deal paragraphs here are valuable guidance: https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/section-guidebook/launch-sites/
 
Last edited:
As for the nearby, rural airport and MOA, I’d see about reaching the nearest FAA tower or approach facility manager, with a careful, introductory conversation about feasibility based on their knowledge of the MOA specifics (floor, ceiling, times of operation). Proximity to Victor airways and segments of instrument approaches to other airports will be a factor, as well.
 
markjos said:
If you’re affiliated with an NAR section, you can request that an insurance certificate be provided for that specific landowner and location. Informing the landowner of the national organization affiliation, the safety code you will follow, and insurance opportunity may be persuasive. See #18 and #19 of the NAR insurance FAQ: https://www.nar.org/safety-information/insurance-questions/

It may also help to indicate that having access to the site will enable you to share educational experiences for students (4H, scouts, STEM, collegiate rocketry teams, etc.) That can work for or against you, depending on the person, and how you present it, of course.

The Salesmanship and Sealing the Deal paragraphs here are valuable guidance: https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/section-guidebook/launch-sites/
Click to expand...
From what I remember, you can't get an insurance certificate for a private field and launches. In order to be considered a club launch eligible for insurance, it has to be open to club members and/or public. So if insurance is going to be important to the land owner, I'd check with NAR/TRA and see if they will insure such a field. Members should still be covered by insurance if they are following all the rules, but it's the landowner certificate that you may not be able to get.


Tony
 
manixFan said:
From what I remember, you can't get an insurance certificate for a private field and launches
Click to expand...

You can for TRA, it was discussed here not long ago. Individual/private launches are covered the same as any other launch as long as all the rules are followed.

I would hope NAR is the same.
 
tsmith1315 said:
You can for TRA, it was discussed here not long ago. Individual/private launches are covered the same as any other launch as long as all the rules are followed.

I would hope NAR is the same.
Click to expand...
The field I was thinking of they were trying to go through NAR for the certificate. It's been a good number of years, but I recall the reason was the insurance certificates were issued to clubs, not individuals.

But after reading through that thread on insurance, especially Steve's reply, and looking at the landowner authorization form, it looks like it should be easy for an individual member to get an insurance certificate for a landowner. I've always known individuals would be covered, but as an individual member being able to get a certificate that names the landowner as insured makes a big difference. My brother-in-law will be very happy.


Tony
 
If it's a good time of year for launching, you might bring along a couple of LPR/MPR Class 1 rockets. If things are going reasonably well, you could ask if you could demonstrate what a launch would look like. I know that my family originally thought that launches would look really sketchy and they were quite a bit more comfortable once we'd been to a club launch.
 
manixFan said:
an individual member being able to get a certificate that names the landowner as insured makes a big difference.
Click to expand...

Indeed it would. I hope NAR has a similar form, and suggest that @Buckeye take that to his meeting with the landowner for encouragement.

I'd take hard copies of the HPR & Model Rocket Safety Codes and Insurance Questions along so the landowner can feel confident that a launch will be conducted responsibly.

A nice copy of Sport Rocketry would be a good thing to have. The slick production helps lend credibility, and is a quick way to a good impression of the hobby.

boatgeek said:
you might bring along a couple of LPR/MPR Class 1 rockets
Click to expand...

That's a good idea. If nothing else, it helps for someone to look at a commercial motor and see we're not just filling a container with questionable things and lighting it up to see what happens.
 
Meeting with the landowners this weekend.

In the meantime, I have been getting my head around the FAA regulations and waivers. To separate Class 1 Model Rockets from Class 2 High Power rockets, the FAA only cares about mass: 125 g of propellant and 1500 g total mass of the rocket. There are several H motors in a cardboard rocket that can easily remain below these thresholds. So, even if the COA is denied, I can still launch some HPR by following the NAR Safety Codes and not have to deal with the FAA at all.

Does that sound correct?
 
Yes. There’s a club in West Palm Beach that has no COA and they allow H impulse providing they follow NAR rules and stay below 1500’.
 
Lots of good advice here. As one who knows some farmers, you might want to show them some appreciation. Bring some home baked cookies, bourbon, or whatever they may be into.,
 
Our club just secured a new launch field and got a COA within a MOA. Here is part of the e-mail from the person securing the COA:

Attached is the final waiver for the new launch site situated west of Waupun. Working with the FAA and with Volk airfield out of Camp Douglass I was able to secure an AGL limit of 12750' when the Volk MOA is inactive and 6470' when the MOA is active. Launch dates are limited to Saturdays and Sundays.
After receiving the initial email concerning the MOA, I researched MOA activity in Wisconsin. I found out that MOA's are normally active during the weekdays. When active on the weekends a special NOTAM is usually issued. I proposed to the FAA that a dual limit be authorized for active and inactive times. The attached waiver is the result.

You just have to talk to the right people, Good Luck!!

Forgot to add we are also 3.56 N. miles from an airport boundry.
 
Last edited:
rcktnut said:
Our club just secured a new launch field and got a COA within a MOA. Here is part of the e-mail from the person securing the COA:

Attached is the final waiver for the new launch site situated west of Waupun. Working with the FAA and with Volk airfield out of Camp Douglass I was able to secure an AGL limit of 12750' when the Volk MOA is inactive and 6470' when the MOA is active. Launch dates are limited to Saturdays and Sundays.
After receiving the initial email concerning the MOA, I researched MOA activity in Wisconsin. I found out that MOA's are normally active during the weekdays. When active on the weekends a special NOTAM is usually issued. I proposed to the FAA that a dual limit be authorized for active and inactive times. The attached waiver is the result.

You just have to talk to the right people, Good Luck!!

Forgot to add we are also 3.56 N. miles from an airport boundry.
Click to expand...

Nice! 12k feet near an airport and within a MOA. Anything is possible!
 
Buckeye said:
Nice! 12k feet near an airport and within a MOA. Anything is possible!
Click to expand...
Our local club's dear departed launch site was within an MOA and near an airport, with a waiver of 14K. You had to call a couple of bases to make sure they weren't using routes X, Y, and Z when you called in the NOTAM. Since we were usually using it during holiday weekends, there wasn't much conflict.
 
The I-24 exit to the Music City Missile Club's field in Hopkinsville KY is just a couple of exits from Fort Campbell. We have a waiver to 10k, or 12k call-in. I was kind of surprised that we could get that waiver; I figured anywhere that close to Fort Campbell would be a no-go.

We did have a couple of private planes that rubbernecked at the last launch. :mad: And a low-flying multiengine prop plane presumably from Campbell.
 
Success!

I met with the nice farm folks and received their permission to use what amounts to about 1 square mile of launch and recovery area. I handed out a packet of information about safety codes, insurance, etc., but the locals didn't seem too worried about all that. They were more concerned that we had a good time, didn't lose our rockets, and wanted to help us in any way. We conducted some launches of LPR, MPR, and HPR and they watched with enthusiasm. It was probably the most excitement those parts have seen in months!

The launch site is not very accessible by vehicle, however. There is a lane part way into the field, but it was full of drifted snow and impassable. We hauled the gear by hand on a sled and toboggan about a 1/4 mile into the field and set up.
 
Last edited:
To top it off, the COA was approved by the FAA in a week! No restrictions or conditions. Easy peasy.

I followed the very good instructions on filling out the paperwork found on the NAR website. I also got good advice from the HPR Services committee members. The key seems to be to just fill out the forms with the minimum required info and let the FAA run through their process. I did not mention the nearby airport nor the MOA. I did not contact the nearest ATC for their opinion. That additional commentary will likely just muddy the waters.

The lady at the FAA was nice and helpful. The only feedback was “You requested only one year on the COA application. We prefer two.” :clapping:
 
8,000 ft AGL, which is what I requested, based on my calcs (Google Earth) of the nearest inhabited structure about 2,000 ft away. 4*2,000 = 8,000
 
markjos said:
As for the nearby, rural airport and MOA, I’d see about reaching the nearest FAA tower or approach facility manager, with a careful, introductory conversation about feasibility based on their knowledge of the MOA specifics (floor, ceiling, times of operation). Proximity to Victor airways and segments of instrument approaches to other airports will be a factor, as well.
Click to expand...
Also get familiar with the NOTAM (Notice To Airmen) process.
 

Similar threads

jcato
What a range fire *could* look like...
Replies
15
Views
4K
TopRamen
TopRamen
GuyNoir
NAR PREZ - DRAFT Response to FAA NPRM
Replies
20
Views
3K
denverdoc
denverdoc
bobbyb
Nerrf Info / Update 6/1/2005
Replies
18
Views
1K
Hospital_Rocket
Hospital_Rocket

Latest posts

Back
Top