L2 capable recommendation

[T-Rex]

Low and slow is best accomplished with fat and draggy. My avitar is a modified LOC Warlock. It sims to just under 1700ft on a J425R DMS motor. It utilizes a combination of draggy fins and a Mil-Surp parachute with a mass of 1kg to keep altitude low. I have to stay below 2000ft for my home field.

 

[mtnmanak]

Apogee Level 2 is pretty complete kit for a first time FG build.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/apogee-level-2-build.162403/

 

[Pete.D]

Low and slow is best accomplished with fat and draggy. My avitar is a modified LOC Warlock. It sims to just under 1700ft on a J425R DMS motor. It utilizes a combination of draggy fins and a Mil-Surp parachute with a mass of 1kg to keep altitude low. I have to stay below 2000ft for my home field.

I've never seen a Warlock fly, but at 7.5 inches diameter it sounds perfect for the OP's needs. And mine too; I'm going to try one myself!

But, my Rocksim run shows a STANDARD Warlock goes to 2305 ft at its specified 6.5 lb weight with blunt matte-finish fins on a J425R, and 1972 ft with 2 lbs added to account for a heavy parachute. What did you do to it to keep yours under 1700 ft, put drag strips on the fins or something like that? And, how big is that 1 kg parachute? I'd hate to see the Warlock catch a thermal and fly away...

 

[jmasterj]

Apogee Level 2 is pretty complete kit for a first time FG build.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/apogee-level-2-build.162403/

It doesn't seem to appear on the Apogee site anymore.

 

[mtnmanak]

It doesn't seem to appear on the Apogee site anymore.

Wow, you are right - I guess I should have looked to see if they were still selling it. Too bad, it was probably the only fully complete dual-deployment entry level 2 FG kit with instructions on the market. All you needed to add was electronics.

I probably have 30 flights on mine with the biggest L motors I could fit in there.

https://web.archive.org/web/2015031..._Kits/Skill_Level_4_Kits/Level-2?cPath=1_232&

 

[dhbarr]

I've never seen a Warlock fly, but at 7.5 inches diameter it sounds perfect for the OP's needs. And mine too; I'm going to try one myself!

But, my Rocksim run shows a STANDARD Warlock goes to 2305 ft at its specified 6.5 lb weight with blunt matte-finish fins on a J425R, and 1972 ft with 2 lbs added to account for a heavy parachute. What did you do to it to keep yours under 1700 ft, put drag strips on the fins or something like that? And, how big is that 1 kg parachute? I'd hate to see the Warlock catch a thermal and fly away...

Consider borrowing a casing for J396-SF, J420-R, or 649J335 ?

 

[jmasterj]

Is Mach 1 the only vendor left that has complete FG kits? Apogee doesn't have any in stock.

 

[MikeyDSlagle]

My thoughts:
Don't go heavier just to stay low. If you want to go fiberglass that's fine but don't do it for the weight. More weight will mean bigger and heavier everything. You need more motor to lift it which usually translates into more altitude, unless you increase drag. Motor hardware and even spent motors will weigh more. Bigger chutes and heavier recovery hardware needs bigger motors to lift. Etc, Etc. And having never built a glass rocket, you can expect it be heavier than advertised after you are complete.
Lighter or mid-weight draggy rockets would be a better choice for staying low.
Fat airframes increase drag.
Long airframes inrease drag.
More fins increase drag.
A large-ish 4" rocket can easily be seen at 4000 feet. I never lost sight of my Binder Design Tyrannosaur up to around 6500. It finished a lot heavier than it should've and was 10lbs on the pad. A little over 2100' on a J315. The 6500' was a K600. Tyrannosaur is a long split fin 4" rocket, total of 9 fins though 3 are small. Nice large, long, draggy rocket. You can expect a little more altitude from the 4" Rogue... less fins and less airframe has less drag.

V2s are awesome rockets. But the shortish airframes coupled with a boattail creates stability issues, easily overcome of course. And some of the assembly can be a little tricky depending on the kit.

I have lots of Madcow kits. For the most part they are good quality. I had a small issue with fin slots on one kit, but nothing major.

Look at the Wildman Drago 4. Not too different than the Madcow Rogue but a little cheaper. I've never had any issues with Wildman kits.

Can't go wrong with either.

 

[Zeta]

I'd love to do a 4" fiberglass V2, but it appears they don't make it anymore.

I know electronics bays aren't required for L2, nor is dual deployment, but I'm not opposed to it.
[/QUOTE]

https://locprecision.com/collections/rockets-4-00-diameter/products/loc-v-2

 

[jmasterj]

Wildman has a fiberglass one:

https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/wildman-4-inch-kits/products/v-2-4-inch

 

[Chad]

In all these l1 or l2 airframe advice threads I recommend the same kit, the madcow dx3 4” cardboard. The wooden parts and beefy and very forgiving. Also, the 4” diameter is easy to work with.

if you already have recovery parts you can reuse then you could also look at alwaysreadyrocketry’s basic blues series. I’m a fan of their bluetube material.

 

[T-Rex]

But, my Rocksim run shows a STANDARD Warlock goes to 2305 ft at its specified 6.5 lb weight with blunt matte-finish fins on a J425R, and 1972 ft with 2 lbs added to account for a heavy parachute. What did you do to it to keep yours under 1700 ft, put drag strips on the fins or something like that? And, how big is that 1 kg parachute? I'd hate to see the Warlock catch a thermal and fly away...

Well, the short story is the only parts that came from the Warlock kit are the nosecone and body tube.
54mm MMT, custom centering rings, Fat Boy fins and of course the parachute. It has an altimeter bay built into the nose.
The parachute is a 72" Vietnam war era bomb 'chute. I got it from Aerocon Systems years ago, but the no longer sell them.
It has always flown with a JLCR to minimize drift.

Just because you buy a kit doesn't mean that has to be the end result. I got the kit from someone who decided he didn't want it after purchase. It was cheaper than buying a tube and nosecone separately.

EDIT: I suppose I should maybe stop refering to it as a modified Warlock, it is a scratch build that happened to have used a couple parts from a Warlock kit.

 

[DaHabes]

I did my L2 with a LOC Minie Magg, an AT J270W and a JLCR. 3,500 feet, visual all the way. The idea was to keep it simple. Now I am doing electronics and dual deploy to get experience for an L3 attempt, and I can play with K and L motors on the journey. Less stressful and more enjoyable this way...

 

[Zbench]

I did my L2 with a LOC Minie Magg, an AT J270W and a JLCR. 3,500 feet, visual all the way. The idea was to keep it simple. Now I am doing electronics and dual deploy to get experience for an L3 attempt, and I can play with K and L motors on the journey. Less stressful and more enjoyable this way...

I see this approach a lot but I have a different take. You don’t have to wait until level 3 to do dual deploy. I built a peregrine fully dual deploy and flew it on an I327. I did it as a dry run for level 2. Full redundant altimeters (quark and quantum) and it worked perfectly. You don’t need to wait until level 3 to think about dual deploy. Try it out while level 1 as a practice for level 2 and by level 3 it will be as second nature as folding a parachute. A differing opinion.

 

[thzero]

Not do you have to wait until level 1 tondo electronics either. They work just fine on mid power.

 

[waltr]

Not do you have to wait until level 1 tondo electronics either. They work just fine on mid power.

Sure do...I have been doing dual deploy for a year and half now. Rockets from 24mm to 65mm BTs. I will do L1 this June but it will be simple. Maybe L2 next year which will have DD.

DD is helpful on low to mid power on smaller fields plus it is fun watching the deployment sequence.

 

[DaHabes]

I see this approach a lot but I have a different take. You don’t have to wait until level 3 to do dual deploy. I built a peregrine fully dual deploy and flew it on an I327. I did it as a dry run for level 2. Full redundant altimeters (quark and quantum) and it worked perfectly. You don’t need to wait until level 3 to think about dual deploy. Try it out while level 1 as a practice for level 2 and by level 3 it will be as second nature as folding a parachute. A differing opinion.

I'm not waiting until L3, I am doing DD as an L2, just not for my L2 cert flight. The rule of thumb I've read and am following is to do at least 10 successful DD flights before even attempting an L3. Getting my L2 this way let's me buy and fly the bigger motors as I scale up. I have a Miss Riley almost ready to fly, need to build out my AV-Bay for my Super DX3 (which I flew SD for my L1) and intend to build a 3" AV-Bay to turn my King Kraken into a DD capable rocket.

I've built a nose cone AV-Bay for a 38mm rocket with a 29mm MMT, geared toward flying an H13ST long burn. After building that bay I've decided to stick with at least 2.6" rockets for electronics going forward. Fitting all the gear into a 38mm bay was a challenge I don't need to repeat.

 

[FlyBy01]

Good day all,
This past weekend I finally got to launch my LOC Hi-tech after a year delay because of COVID, and it was successful and I achieved my L1 Cert on an Aerotech RMS H123W-14 at Red Glare 2022 in Maryland. I plan on launching it some more, where I can, but the launch site is 2 hour drive, and not open again until the fall. I'd like to start my summer project, and after loosing site at 3200', I'd like to consider a lower and heavier (fiberglass) L2 rocket. My Hi-tech recovered just fine using a JLCR, but I don't want something up at 4-6k, where I may loose it with a high gust of wind.

I'd like to get some opinions (everyone has one). I've been looking at some of the Madcow kits, as I hear they make great kits, but not all of them seem to have directions. As this would be my first attempt with fiberglass, I want good directions. Their 4" fiberglass Rogue kit seems to be a good candidate, as it's fairly heavy (8 lbs), but I don't see a link on their site to directions or a RockSim file.

The Little John and Nike Smokes may be good options, but they are a few pounds lighter, and they are putting me at higher altitudes on J engines.

I'd love to do a 4" fiberglass V2, but it appears they don't make it anymore.

I know electronics bays aren't required for L2, nor is dual deployment, but I'm not opposed to it.

Wildman has a 4" V2 as someone else mentioned. If you don't want to go too broke and fiberglass I would look at the Wildman Jart or Gizmo. My 5" Jart flew to 1,796 ft, on a J340M. Extra weight was 1lb of nose weight, tracker sled in the nose cone and some LED lighting. The rocket loaded including motor for launch is 10lbs. I recommend a 7 ft. rocket-man parachute for extra soft landings but you definitely can get away with a smaller parachute.

 

[FlyBy01]

Forgot to mention that I use a Jolly Logic Chute release but you can upgrade the Jart 5" to a dual deploy option. I launch at Battle Park but won't be able to be there until the fall season starts. Have fun!!!!

 

[thzero]

Fitting all the gear into a 38mm bay was a challenge I don't need to repeat.

BT70 and BT80 tubes make decent lightweight DD rockets. The LOC 54 isn't that far off the BT70; think most of my BT70 gear fit in 54mm tubes minus new bulkheads. BT80 and LOC 2.6" are pretty comparable too, although obviously LOC is heavier.

 

[waltr]

deleted

 

[Zman1961]

It doesn't seem to appear on the Apogee site anymore.

Here is a link to the Apogee web site with the Level 2 kit build video links. These shorts videos will give you plenty of good information on how to build any fiberglass kit, https://www.apogeerockets.com/Advanced_Construction_Videos/Rocketry_Video_122. Scroll to the bottom of the web page for the complete set of video links. It's a great kit, made by Mad Cow, but I don't think Mad Cow is supplying them to Apogee any more.
There are also some good TRF threads on how to build what could be level 2 certification rockets using the Wildman Darkstar line of fiberglass kits in various sizes.

 

[waltr]

Another good set of videos for FG construction is on Mach 1's web site:
https://www.mach1rocketry.com/badass-videos
Maybe build a smaller FG rocket like a Mach 1 first to learn and also have something for smaller fields like MDRA's Sod Farm. They will be launching from the Sod farm each month until October.
https://mdrocketry.org/next-launch/Suggest 4000' max apogee due to field size but still allows a lot of rockets.

 

[Philip Tiberius D.]

Did my L2 on my LOC EZI-65 with a J250w and hit just a tad over 3700', used a JLCR set to 600' for recovery. Piece of cake... It's a nice big rocket that can be easily seen, especially if brightly painted and can take a number of J and L motors.

 

[Zman1961]

Another good set of videos for FG construction is on Mach 1's web site:
https://www.mach1rocketry.com/badass-videos
Maybe build a smaller FG rocket like a Mach 1 first to learn and also have something for smaller fields like MDRA's Sod Farm. They will be launching from the Sod farm each month until October.
https://mdrocketry.org/next-launch/Suggest 4000' max apogee due to field size but still allows a lot of rockets.

The Badass videos are good! I have used the one for Rocketpoxy fillets, it went exactly as presented, with great results.

 

[JackC]

Is Mach 1 the only vendor left that has complete FG kits? Apogee doesn't have any in stock.

No. Hawk Mountain Enterprises has some nice fiberglass kits. I did my L2 on its Jumanji, a big rocket with a 54mm motor mount, single deployment 18 years ago. Just use a motor adapter to use a 38mm J motor and you will have an apogee of 2400 feet or so. You will easily see it through the whole flight. Afterwards add an altimeter and drogue sections to make it dual deployment and you are good to go for years to come!
Wildman, Performance Hobbies, and Composite Warehouse all have fiberglass kits. Performance Hobbies has a very nice half scale IQSY Tomahawk that could be fairly low if you use a high thrust K motor (the rocket is 20 lbs. without the motor). Wildman also has some great kits, too.

For best instructions, I would say Hawk Mountain by far. Next would be Wildman but the instructions are fairly minimal. Performance Hobbies is last (no instructions at all).

Good luck !

 

[Titan II]

One of the best for quality and service.

https://www.madcowrocketry.com/

 

[AllDigital]

My son just did his L2 yesterday with a Wildman 3 Dual Deploy flying a Cesaroni Pro54 J210. It went to about 4K feet.

That is a good basic dual deploy kit, since it is very stable and has lots of room. He had a 3' drogue and a 6' main. If you are buying this kit I'd recommend buying a set of 3" aluminum bulkheads (from Madcow) and a 54mm Aeropack retainer.

 

[JackC]

My son just did his L2 yesterday with a Wildman 3 Dual Deploy flying a Cesaroni Pro54 J210. It went to about 4K feet.

That is a good basic dual deploy kit, since it is very stable and has lots of room. He had a 3' drogue and a 6' main. If you are buying this kit I'd recommend buying a set of 3" aluminum bulkheads (from Madcow) and a 54mm Aeropack retainer.

I love the J210 motor!

 

[mtnmanak]

Here is a link to the Apogee web site with the Level 2 kit build video links. These shorts videos will give you plenty of good information on how to build any fiberglass kit, https://www.apogeerockets.com/Advanced_Construction_Videos/Rocketry_Video_122. Scroll to the bottom of the web page for the complete set of video links. It's a great kit, made by Mad Cow, but I don't think Mad Cow is supplying them to Apogee any more.
There are also some good TRF threads on how to build what could be level 2 certification rockets using the Wildman Darkstar line of fiberglass kits in various sizes.

I talked to Apogee about this over the weekend. They said they are getting almost nothing from Madcow anymore, so they had to discontinue the Level 2 rocket, among others. They said it was a good seller and, if Madcow ever starts producing again, they would add it back in to the lineup. I understand their position - it is hard to sell something if the supplier doesn't give you any to sell. I am not always a fan of Apogee for many reasons, but I have to give them credit for taking the Level 2 off their website when they know they can't provide one to the customer. There are other vendors who have taken orders even when they knew they would not be able to provide the product in a timely manner...

As others have noted, you can't go wrong with Wildman and Mach 1 fiberglass rockets.