It's time to fly some old motors (but see below)

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Ted Cochran

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NAR Safety Committee Request for Proposals: Expired Motor Flight Testing

Background

The NAR Board of Trustees in its July 2006 meeting authorized a Safety
Code Commensurate Compliance Program whereby the Board or its
designees may review and approve proposals for commensurate methods of
compliance with the Safety Code(s) of the Association for activities
that may otherwise be perceived to technically violate some portion(s)
of the Safety Code, provided:

• The activities are conducted in accordance with applicable laws, and

• The activities, if conducted on behalf of the Association, are
consistent with the purposes of the Association and can not otherwise
be reasonably achieved, and

• The activities are fully described as to time and place, and
alternate methods of compliance enumerated, and

• The alternate methods of compliance provide for equal or greater
safety margins as would other obtain from the existing Safety Code, and

• The Association receives a report of the results of the event.

Authorization currently requires a two-thirds majority of those
members of the Board of Trustees voting on the proposal.

Members who in good faith apply for, receive, and act in accordance
with approval for alternate methods of compliance are considered in
compliance with the Safety Code, and may not be subject to the
sanctions of Section 11 of the bylaws for actions related to the
approved activity.

[As a side note, the resolution also states that members carrying out
legal activities that are not associated with, sanctioned, nor insured
by the Association are exempt from the requirements of this procedure,
so for example TRA Research activities are not affected.]

The Board of Trustees then authorized the Safety Committee to carry
out a study of the impact of motor age on motor safety for motors that
have been decertified some years after production has ended. The
authorized program is described as follows:

-------------------------------------
Title of this launch/project/program: Impact of motor age on motor safety

Provision(s) for which alternative compliance is sought:


HPRSC item 3: "I will use only certified, commercially-made rocket
motors...."

Risk:

This project involves the study of previously NAR-certified, and now
decertified, model rocket motors in order to determine whether they
pose a greater than average safety hazard. It is possible that these
motors will malfunction at a higher-than-average rate.

Justification for project and benefit to NAR:

Current NAR practice is to decertify motors some years after they go
out of production. The primary justification for this practice is the
uncertainties surrounding the performance of old motors. However, the
practice is inconsistent with the fact that motors that are still in
production remain certified regardless of their age. In order to
institute a fact-based policy on motor expiration, we need to collect
data on the performance of these motors.

Alternatives to launch/project/program:


Static firing old motors. There are three issues with this
alternative: First, it uses up the stock of remaining motors. Second,
it would rely on the generosity of those who happen to have the motors
(or require their purchase), making the collection of adequate data
difficult. Third, the available facilities and personnel for static
firing motors are already overworked.

Limiting tests to old, but still certified, motors. The primary
problem with this alternative is that we don't know whether the data
for popular motors with a decades-old production history generalize to
more-specialized motors produced in smaller quantities.

Methods for mitigating risk:

Testing will be restricted to those clubs and NAR members, on insured
sites, and at specific times and places, who agree to comply with the
following conditions:

1) Motors shall have been decertified only due to being out of
production and shall not have been decertified for safety reasons

2) Minimum distances shall be at least doubled, depending on the
characteristics of the vehicle under test. Tests shall not be
conducted when elevated fire hazard conditions are present, and
appropriate firefighting equipment shall be available.

3) All test flights will be conducted with spectators alerted and aware.

4) All test flights shall use a single motor. The sole exception to
this restriction is that black powder booster motors may be staged to
an appropriate, currently certified black powder sustainer motor. No
clustered motors shall be used.

5) The following data shall be provided to the Chair of the Special
Committee on Safety no later than seven days following the event, for
each motor tested, regardless of outcome:

a) Motor designation
b) Date of manufacture and/or motor coding
c) Any available information on storage (e.g., "it's been in my cool,
dry basement for 10 years.")
d) Flight outcome, including timed delay. If the outcome was a failure
motor, details of the failure AND A MESS REPORT shall be submitted.

6) In the event two motors from the same date and of the same type
CATO, no further testing of motors of that date and type shall be
conducted.

Other requirements:

Clubs desiring to conduct test launches shall apply to the Chair of
the Special Committee on Safety, specifying the date and time of the
launch and itemizing the motors to be tested. Motor tests shall not be
conducted without specific written authorization from that Chair.

Motors tested under this policy shall be considered to be certified
for the date and location specified in the authorization.

The Special Committee on Safety shall issue an RFP for testing
conforming to these conditions, and shall authorize no more than ten
such events prior to 15 March 2007. An interim report of the results
shall be provided to the Board of Trustees at the Winter 2007 meeting.

------------------------------------

The good stuff:


The NAR Board of Trustees intends for this activity to be productive
(i.e., to provide valid data on the question of the safety of old
motors), but there is no reason why it can not also be fun. We're
hoping that Sections will be interested in supporting this activity
and will find ways to increase the data collected.

The Board of Trustees will consider extending and/or expanding this
program depending on the results of the first ten events.

Request for Proposals

In order to maximize the quality and quantity of data to be collected,
I am asking that interested NAR members and/or Sections submit a
proposal to me no later than 5:00 PM August 15, 2006.

Proposals shall include:

• The name and NAR number of the person responsible for conducting the
test and reporting on the results,

• The date and place of the test (include a brief description of the
field, e.g., "school football field," "25 square miles of desert"),

• An itemized list of motors to be tested (In addition, any data that
the proposer can provide on the certification history of the motors
proposed for testing will be greatly appreciated!), and

• A statement of agreement to comply with the conditions listed above,
and any other conditions that may be attached to the authorization
(e.g., safe distances, restrictions on the list of motors to be tested).

Note that only model rocket motors that have not been decertified for
safety reasons are eligible for this program.

Proposals will be selected based on the quantity and quality of the
data to be provided, the opportunity to carry out statistically valid
samples from a variety of such motors from around the country, and the
ability of the applicant(s) to conduct the activity safely. I intend
to issue authorization for at least three and as many as ten events by
August 25. [My goal is to get great data, and to get the program
started by Labor Day].

I reserve the right to modify this RFP as I get more sleep.

Please feel free to distribute this RFP (unedited) to rocketeers
everywhere.

Please help us get some great data, and not mess up what could be the
beginning of broader ability to fly. Let's all continue to make sport
rocketry safe, educational, and fun!

Regards,

Ted Cochran
Chair, NAR Safety Committee
 
Ted,

This seems like a great program.

Could you comment on the certification of the Estes C5-3? I know of a source and I wouldn't mind doing some tests of them if they qualify.

Thanks,
Jason
NAR: 82997 L2
 
Dang. I thought I got lucky.

Thanks Ted. All I needed was an excuse to buy more of these. ;)

Jason
 
I have some F101's that have been waiting for the opportune moment :D

Sounds like it is here :D
 
Ted,

So it's one old motor at a time?

For example, I could use an uncertified A10-0T booster staged to a certified A3-4T

But not an uncertified A10-0T staged to an uncertified A3-6T.

Is the purpose of the testing to determine if motors that go OOP shouldn't necessarily be decertified just because they are no longer made?

When I returned to this hobby in 2004 I launched every one of my old stock of still certified motors made in the late 60's and early 70's and didn't have a single failure but I knew that they were stored in a location without any extreme temperature or humidity variances.

I still have a number of decertified motors that I can't fly at a sanctioned launch and that is the really the only time I get to fly.
 
Originally posted by BobH48
So it's one old motor at a time?
Yes.
Is the purpose of the testing to determine if motors that go OOP shouldn't necessarily be decertified just because they are no longer made?
Yes again. We have a few side bets going in the association, but most of us believe that many old motors, if they haven't been abused, are perfectly safe to fly. But we don't know, and until now didn't have a way to find out.

So now we're going to find out. :)

--tc
 
Subtitle says it all...got plenty of F100's & F7's waiting for flights!
 
Praise the Lord and pass the Booster Motors.... It's about Time!!!

Thanks Ted: Finally Someone On The Board Heard our Cries for the wilderness:D I bow to the man:D:D:D
I like bob-48 have many many Oop motors that will once again be able to take to the skies;)
Can anyone say Centuri 13mm B4's:) YEAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
 
Cool, now I can use those B14-0's and B14-5's I scored on eBay!
 
Guy's
any Narhams members who have motors to add to this test, Please write the motor and manufacture date or codes down and get them to Jim Filler or Jennifer this week, We have a meeting Saturday but about all the officers are at NARAM so I think we'll have to get our Oop motor lists together somehow on-line.
October looks like it might be the Scheduled test launch...Make sure any motors you list can be flown on that date, either by the motor owner or someone else in the club. I have a ton of old motors, don't know quite how many to try to fly on the same day. maybe more different types, than more of a specific unit sould be the key? I hope Jen & Jim are reading our site and/or their private e-mails...We will I'm sure had a huge sampling of motors the NAR NEEDS for this "data base".

bulk bp motor chest-c-sm_2 pic pg_03-20-04.jpg
 
So, is this a done deal... or we still awaiting something to be approved?
 
Originally posted by astronboy
So, is this a done deal... or we still awaiting something to be approved?

What, the initial post wasn't long enough for you? :-D

The BoT has approved this special R&D program of up to 10 events between now and March, and will then see how it is going and re-evaluate.

--You have to apply to have an event ahead of time.

--You have to agree to follow special rules.

--You can't fly old motors within the safety code and insurance unless you have written authorization as part of this special R&D program.

--I'm asking for proposals now, so clubs/members who want to fly yet this summer/fall might have time to do so. I have to weigh applications based on the amount of data and the distribution of motors. I'll approve at least 3, and maybe as many as 10, depending on what comes in. If I haven't approved ten, I'll keep the process open for more rounds until I get 10.

--tc
 
Ted,

Thanks so much for the clarification, I do appreciate it!

Now, to sort out my B-14s, A10-0Ts, A3-6Ts...
Ph
 
Where would you like the proposals sent Ted?
e-mail, address, post office box. for something with such a short deadline you'd think this would have been published with the first post?
Narhams has committed to at least two test dates starting in September, I have the compiled list of 40 motors for that first date. Jim filler is the contact person for the Sept 06 launch and I'll be handling the testing portion of the launch at our new Launch site in Maryland. All We need is somewhere to send the info and proposal.


Originally posted by Ted Cochran
What, the initial post wasn't long enough for you? :-D

The BoT has approved this special R&D program of up to 10 events between now and March, and will then see how it is going and re-evaluate.

--You have to apply to have an event ahead of time.

--You have to agree to follow special rules.

--You can't fly old motors within the safety code and insurance unless you have written authorization as part of this special R&D program.

--I'm asking for proposals now, so clubs/members who want to fly yet this summer/fall might have time to do so. I have to weigh applications based on the amount of data and the distribution of motors. I'll approve at least 3, and maybe as many as 10, depending on what comes in. If I haven't approved ten, I'll keep the process open for more rounds until I get 10.

--tc
 
Originally posted by BobH48
Ted,

So it's one old motor at a time?

For example, I could use an uncertified A10-0T booster staged to a certified A3-4T

But not an uncertified A10-0T staged to an uncertified A3-6T.

Is the purpose of the testing to determine if motors that go OOP shouldn't necessarily be decertified just because they are no longer made?

When I returned to this hobby in 2004 I launched every one of my old stock of still certified motors made in the late 60's and early 70's and didn't have a single failure but I knew that they were stored in a location without any extreme temperature or humidity variances.

I still have a number of decertified motors that I can't fly at a sanctioned launch and that is the really the only time I get to fly.


Send me the list of what you want to fly so we can get CMASS in on this.
 
Originally posted by Ted Cochran
...
1) Motors shall have been decertified only due to being out of
production and shall not have been decertified for safety reasons
...

Hi Ted:
This seems like a very useful program.

How do I find out if a particular motor was decertified for a safety reason?
Thanks,
Will
 
Cool. I have some MRC A8-3, B4-4, and C6-3 motors.

Plenty of A10-0's

and a FSI E5 and E60 which will most likely go boom so I won't fly them

pack of E27's

some B6T, C4W and C6W's
 
Well this sucks :(

Apparently my F101's won't be able to fly - this is for MODEL rocket motors only :(
 
You can email me the proposals at [email protected]. Or send them to my home address 4235 Dupont Ave S, Mpls, MN 55409. Be sure to include a snail mail address so I can send you a letter with a real signature approving the launch.

Again, I tried to get this set up in a hurry so that clubs could make plans and still do it in the flying season. I expect to have another round or two of this starting in the fall.

--tc
 
Tap tap tap...is this thing on?

OK.

Hello there. Remember that August 15 deadline?

I have a tiny handful of proposals in hand. Less than a handful, actually.

Anyone out there working on one?

Remember, only model rocket motors.

Also remember, I need a responsible person, a date, a specific list of motors, and agreement to follow the rules, which I'll not repeat here 'cuz they're in the really long post at the top of this thread.

--tc
 
Originally posted by Ted Cochran
Tap tap tap...is this thing on?

OK.

Hello there. Remember that August 15 deadline?

I have a tiny handful of proposals in hand. Less than a handful, actually.

Anyone out there working on one?

Remember, only model rocket motors.

Also remember, I need a responsible person, a date, a specific list of motors, and agreement to follow the rules, which I'll not repeat here 'cuz they're in the really long post at the top of this thread.

--tc

I'm working on one. I have lists of motors on little pieces of paper on my desk and I have to get them organized.

For some of us who spent the week at NARAM and are now trying to catch up on the work that didn't get done that week, August 15 isn't quite enough time.
 
I have a whole bunch of A10-0T's waiting to fly as well as some C4-3's (are they still good?).

I have 1 B14-7 left, but the nozzle is a bit chipped so I don't think I'll consider flying it...
 
Dan, do you mean C5-3's, I've never heard of C4-3? If C5-3 they are still certified and I wish I could get my hands on a few!

Glenn
 
Yes, C5-3...my goof.

I hadn't checked recently, I thought their cert may have expired.
 
But I still am confused over this: is it OK with NAR if an individual uses OOP motors at a solo launch? (Or will this get me tarred and feathered?)

I mean, I know it says specially-approved fields and specially-approved events, but is there no option for an individual to turn in some data? If I go out in a field by myself (always dangerous, with or without rockets) you don't want my data?
 
Originally posted by powderburner
But I still am confused over this: is it OK with NAR if an individual uses OOP motors at a solo launch? ...

I mean, I know it says specially-approved fields and specially-approved events, but is there no option for an individual to turn in some data? If I go out in a field by myself (always dangerous, with or without rockets) you don't want my data?

There is a really fine line we're trying to walk here.

There is now a way to fly OOP motors legally, with NAR insurance, at sponsored NAR events. That's the best way.

After some data are collected, we may have a valid basis to open up the game some more (here's hoping, but no promises!).

That said, if you can legally fly OOP motors at non-NAR activities, not using NAR insurance, then it would be a pity not to collect and forward the data you may collect. Be legal. Be safe.

--tc
 
I just sent out email notification (hardcopy to follow) approving four launches, each involving multiple launches of old motors, subject to the constraints I outlined at the beginning of this thread.

If anyone else wants to do one and hasn't had time yet to get a list together, please let me know; I'll turn them around as I get them.

Cheers,

--tc
 

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