ISS extension through at least 2024

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Winston

Lorenzo von Matterhorn
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https://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1401/08issextension/

However, I agree 100% with this post about that on the Seesat-l list (manmade satellite observers mailing list including sats whose orbital elements aren't released, the classified military ones I'm interested in observing):

"Space station (noun): A hole in space surrounded by metal into which you pour money."
 
https://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1401/08issextension/

However, I agree 100% with this post about that on the Seesat-l list (manmade satellite observers mailing list including sats whose orbital elements aren't released, the classified military ones I'm interested in observing):

"Space station (noun): A hole in space surrounded by metal into which you pour money."

LOL:) That's spot on... over $100 billion so far, around $200 billion by the time its done by all accounts. Depending on whose figures you believe, we may be at the $200 billion mark already... we'll never know for sure because of all the "creative accounting" that NASA did, shuffling money around, usually from the shuttle program but other programs as well, to cover ISS cost overruns so they didn't have to go to Congress to ask for the money (and explain why they needed it, and potentially damage the fragile and often flagging support for ISS, which was nearly canceled and missed by one vote once). Then there was all the money NASA sent to Russia to prop up their space program, in the form of us "buying" Mir II core components for the ISS...

About the only real contribution I can see that ISS is making to the space program is that it acts as an 'anchor tenant' to justify the COTS (commercial orbital transportation services) ISS resupply contracts, therefore bootstrapping companies like SpaceX and OSC to build rockets like the Falcon 9, Antares, and resupply spacecraft like the Dragon and Cygnus. IF Congress will ever decide to fund it properly, Commercial Crew will do the same thing for crew transport to ISS and return the capability for the US to launch its astronauts from its own soil, yet apparently our "leadership" would rather keep paying $72 million dollars per seat to Russia for rides on Soyuz, rather than fund the development of our own commercial capabilities and buy seats from US companies, presumably at much lower rates.

We've outsourced just about everything else, guess we might as well outsource our space program too... :eyeroll::facepalm:

Later! OL JR :)
 
Last I heard they were talking about an extension to 2028... the plan has been the station would be funded through 2020, and then perhaps extended through 2028. Looks like ISS has become exactly what the shuttle program was-- an end unto itself, a program which will continue into perpetuity whether it makes sense or not, or serves a worthy purpose, unless there is some kind of catastrophic outside influence that FORCES a change... (like how Columbia exposed the brittleness of the shuttle system and caused a reassessment of plans to continue shuttle operations for the foreseeable future, with no end in sight, and at what risk for what gains...)

ISS isn't going to last forever... Remember Mir, how it was literally falling apart by the time it was finally deorbited?? Mir was designed for a 10-year lifespan, launched in 1986, and continued flying until 2001, by which time the vast majority of work being done on that station was simply to keep it operational and somewhat safe, with virtually no time left over for doing experiments or anything else. Now, granted, Mir was built by the Soviets, who always had an "expendable" paradigm for their space program and we're particularly good at building long-lifetime or repairable hardware, and the collapse of the Soviet Union and the transition of the space program to Russia with "cooperation" from the other former Soviet states was jarring and left the program anemically underfunded for awhile, but the infusion of cash and assistance from the US via the Shuttle/Mir program should have helped alleviate a lot of that (too bad the money was frittered away to build huge multimillion dollar homes for Russian space agency Generals and officials earning at best "semi-skilled labor" wages in the US... ) At any rate, while part of Mir's problems were due to these problems, part of it was sheer old age.

The first modules of ISS, and the Russian ones are actually reworked Mir II core components, have been in orbit since 1998. Construction wasn't even "completed" (actually lots of stuff was simply "left on the ground" due to shuttle retirement, despite shuttle going an extra year past the 2010 planned shuttle retirement, and ISS was deemed "complete"). Construction of ISS continued for 13 years. By 2020, the "official" program completion date, those modules will have been operating in space for 22 years and by 2024, 26 years... by 2028, should ISS be extended (or more importantly last that long) they will have been operating in space for 30 years! The shuttle program itself was only flying for 30 years, and that was with extensive ground maintenance between each mission (granted, shuttle goes through a lot more dynamic environments and flight regimes during a mission than ISS modules do, since the modules are only launched once and don't have to endure the rigors of reentry and landing...) However, sooner or later, sheer age is going to catch up to ISS, with failure after failure and the astronauts aboard will be struggling to keep the station safe and operational, with little/no time for the science and experimentation for which the station was built. The real question is, will NASA and our "leaders" be willing to say "ISS has outlived its usefulness" at that point and shut it down, or will they continue to cling to it and keep it operating regardless of the costs in time, money, and opportunity? This is exactly the same paradigm that kept the shuttle program going past the point where the risks simply outweighed any potential rewards, and it would have been better replaced by a new system. Yet in many ways, we're still held captive by the shuttle-- now we're at the mercy of these "shuttle derived" systems, which while (dubiously) *might* be cheaper to develop, are MORE EXPENSIVE to operate-- RAC 2 proved that unequivocally (study of potential new HLV rockets, both shuttle-derived and what could loosely be termed "Saturn derived", aka a "reborn Saturn V", which proved hands down a "new Saturn V" would be cheaper and more efficient to operate than "shuttle derived" solutions, but would be more expensive to develop-- an assertion given SLS's $36 billion dollar development cost I find hard to believe, personally).

At any rate, we're now captives of ISS... ISS is SO expensive that we simply cannot afford to do "exploration missions" with SLS/Orion AND ISS at the same time-- not with anything remotely resembling NASA's current budget. That much has been understood since the beginning. Former NASA Administrator Mike Griffin's Constellation plans counted on the ISS being deorbited in 2016, as it turns out only 5 years after "station complete" (and after 13 years of ongoing construction effort to build it), to free up the ISS program money for Ares V development and whatever payloads were required, like the Altair lunar lander (which was canceled to free up development money for Ares I and V-- kinda hard to land on the moon with no moon lander!) At any rate, the international partners were up in arms about it, after having dedicated considerable portions of their own space resources to the ISS project for many years, and wanting "greater payback" for their investment... and Congress went so far as to declare it a "National Laboratory" and declared its scientific contributions as invaluable, despite decades of Congressional meddling watering down the station design and weakening the science potential of the station...) These factors combined to make continuing the station program through at least 2020 guaranteed, and extension to 2028 definitely on the table. Sounds like the Administration has indicated they'd approve a continuance to 2024 at this point, which probably means basically it's a done deal, barring any huge Congressional backlash (which seems unlikely given their efforts to save it from the ax in 2016 under Griffin's plan).

Of course, this also means that any "exploration" missions of any consequence (loops around the moon by Orion on free-return trajectory ala Zond 5 and Apollo 13 notwithstanding) WILL be delayed... we cannot afford under anything like the current NASA budget to do exploration missions AND ISS... that was the whole reason for Griffin's plan, and a large part of why Constellation "jumped off the tracks", was that it was predicated on ISS ending in 2016 to free up several hundred million per year in funding absolutely necessary for exploration system development and eventually, operations). SO, don't expect to see ANY "real" exploration missions until the ISS program ends... whenever that might be. Short of a huge budget increase for NASA, that's just how it has to be.

Given the fact that basically ISS is about "peeing in jars and looking at stars", an astronaut euphemism for performing pretty valueless experiments and "science", personally I think ISS should go away in 2020, IF we're serious about doing exploration missions (and I'm not convinced that we are-- exploration missions WILL require things like hab modules, pressurized rovers, LANDERS, in-space propulsion and refueling from Earth-launched "tankers", etc. and NONE of that stuff is funded, and there's no money to fund any of it... hence the "lasso an asteroid and drag it back to lunar orbit via an unmanned vehicle, so we can shoot an Orion out there with an Interim Cryogenic Propulsion Stage to meet up with it (where it's limited propulsion capabilities are sufficient; ICPS can't put an Orion into LLO and get it back to Earth) so that astronauts can do some sort of EVA to "plant the flag" on this asteroid and chip off samples... which speaks to the desperation of NASA to find a purpose and mission for Orion/SLS-- ANY "mission"-- after all, if you can build a robotic spacecraft capable of "lassoing" an asteroid in deep space and bringing it back to cis-lunar space, it would be much simpler to construct it to chip off, drill, laser, or take whatever samples you want to bring back to Earth and perform experiments, then have it return those samples to Earth via a reentry vehicle, obviating the need for an expensive manned Orion flight entirely.)

Later! OL JR :)
 
LOL:) That's spot on... over $100 billion so far, around $200 billion by the time its done by all accounts. Depending on whose figures you believe, we may be at the $200 billion mark already... we'll never know for sure because of all the "creative accounting" that NASA did, shuffling money around, usually from the shuttle program but other programs as well, to cover ISS cost overruns so they didn't have to go to Congress to ask for the money (and explain why they needed it, and potentially damage the fragile and often flagging support for ISS, which was nearly canceled and missed by one vote once).

Such a waste of limited funds. The Mars 2020 rover, an improved Curiosity, has a budget of $100 million for the entire instrument package, the same cost as two man-weeks on the ISS. Compare the scientific returns from those two things and it's obvious what a huge waste the ISS is by comparison.

Back when I used to go to the page listing the experiments they were conducting on the ISS at any given time, I was never impressed as 50% were related to dealing with problems with the ISS environment related to carrying out experiments and the others were so lame. They reminded me of the brag about the ESA Spacelab experiment on the Shuttle that would result in improved golf clubs at the very same time a mission, Pathfinder, which cost only 50% of the cost of a single shuttle launch had airbag landed on Mars with its little mini-rover roving the surface.

About the only real contribution I can see that ISS is making to the space program is that it acts as an 'anchor tenant' to justify the COTS (commercial orbital transportation services) ISS resupply contracts, therefore bootstrapping companies like SpaceX and OSC to build rockets like the Falcon 9, Antares, and resupply spacecraft like the Dragon and Cygnus.
Later! OL JR :)

Thank goodness for that busywork, at least.

Every Falcon 9 v1.1 launch up to the latest one involved 1st stage rotation, retro-braking and the start of a descent for a return to launch site. No insider leaks yet that I know of about that sort of thing during the latest launch, but if it was in their fuel budget, I'm sure they did it. Once they start landing the first stage on Falcon 9 v1.1 and the core and identical strap-ons of the Falcon 9 Heavy, the already incredibly low cost of Falcon launches will be even lower, totally unbeatable until someone else does the same thing.

I talked at the last national sport launch with a nice guy who works for the ULA. I didn't know that until I praised SpaceX. The following news blurb dispels one of the weaknesses he claimed for SpaceX:

"having now conducted two launches from the same pad over a 34 day time frame, SpaceX has shattered the best turnaround recorded by either of Atlas V or Delta IV ULA boosters against which it is competing to enter the USAF’s EELV program."
 
Such a waste of limited funds. The Mars 2020 rover, an improved Curiosity, has a budget of $100 million for the entire instrument package, the same cost as two man-weeks on the ISS. Compare the scientific returns from those two things and it's obvious what a huge waste the ISS is by comparison.

Back when I used to go to the page listing the experiments they were conducting on the ISS at any given time, I was never impressed as 50% were related to dealing with problems with the ISS environment related to carrying out experiments and the others were so lame. They reminded me of the brag about the ESA Spacelab experiment on the Shuttle that would result in improved golf clubs at the very same time a mission, Pathfinder, which cost only 50% of the cost of a single shuttle launch had airbag landed on Mars with its little mini-rover roving the surface.



Thank goodness for that busywork, at least.

Every Falcon 9 v1.1 launch up to the latest one involved 1st stage rotation, retro-braking and the start of a descent for a return to launch site. No insider leaks yet that I know of about that sort of thing during the latest launch, but if it was in their fuel budget, I'm sure they did it. Once they start landing the first stage on Falcon 9 v1.1 and the core and identical strap-ons of the Falcon 9 Heavy, the already incredibly low cost of Falcon launches will be even lower, totally unbeatable until someone else does the same thing.

I talked at the last national sport launch with a nice guy who works for the ULA. I didn't know that until I praised SpaceX. The following news blurb dispels one of the weaknesses he claimed for SpaceX:

"having now conducted two launches from the same pad over a 34 day time frame, SpaceX has shattered the best turnaround recorded by either of Atlas V or Delta IV ULA boosters against which it is competing to enter the USAF’s EELV program."

Totally agree... just like shuttle, ISS has become a case of "build it and they WON'T come..." Shuttle was supposed to enable the age of space manufacturing and massive amounts of space research aboard Spacelab and later Spacehab, and "man tended free-flyers" and all of that... NONE of which amounted to much of anything. ISS was touted as the 'be all, end all' of space research, and that scientists and researchers the world over would be tripping over themselves to fly experiments and do research on ISS... that hasn't panned out either. Corporate interest has been virtually nil, when it was projected to be a HUGE thing that would have companies beating a path to NASA's door. Most of the research being done on ISS is geared toward "microgee effects on the human body of long term spaceflight" and various mitigation strategies and stuff like that. Of course, there's not going to BE any "long duration spaceflight" so long as ISS is flying, and probably not for a decade after it's splashed... it'll take that long to develop the deep space habs and hardware necessary for any exploration missions. By that time one of two things will have happened-- 1) much of the data obtained on health effects on ISS will be of little use-- superseded by new developments in medicine, diagnostic and sensing equipment, and/or mitigation strategies and drugs aimed at minimizing health effects from long term microgee exposure, and 2) robotics will have advanced to such a point that a manned mission won't even be necessary-- it'll be an expensive and dangerous waste of time, to gather the same information that could have been gathered with robotic spacecraft for less cost, albeit at a slower pace, and from a more limited area and time compared to what a robotic probe could do, or better yet a SERIES of them for less money that what a single human mission would cost.

What's really the crime IMHO is that they're GUTTING the unmanned program to pay for SLS/Orion, which is USELESS without the hardware like habs and propulsion stages, etc. that is absolutely necessary to do anything of value that makes sense (beyond stunts like lassoing asteroids and dragging them back to cislunar space for Orion to go "visit"). NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden recently told the scientific community to "forget about any more "Flagship class" missions for the foreseeable future" due to the budget being all sucked up by SLS/Orion development-- a super rocket with no payloads, no missions, no destination, and an overbuilt capsule with no hardware for it to work with to do any meaningful missions, that will cost dozens of billions to develop and hundreds of millions a year just to sustain whether it flies or not, and will only fly about every 2-3 years by even the most optimistic projections, and will cost over $1.5 BILLION per flight by even the most rosy estimates (which always have a way of growing-- some "worst case" estimates I've seen put SLS flights at the $10-14 billion dollar range EACH, figuring in all the program costs...) At any rate, it's a rocket to nowhere for at least another decade, maybe two... In the meantime, we'll watch the our present "renaissance" in unmanned probe exploration of the solar system and nearby planets wind down, as our Cassini and Curiosity wind down and nothing's in the pipeline to replace them... Hubble should be replaced by the very late and INCREDIBLY expensive James Webb Space Telescope, assuming it ever gets completed and launched, and actually works... It'll be just like the early 80's, when we had virtually NO space probes exploring the solar system because most of the funding had been soaked up to pay for shuttle development overruns and schedule slips (mostly for the SSME's). The last time we allowed a manned program to pillage the development budget for unmanned space exploration, it cost us nearly a decade of missions, and the opportunity cost was nearly much worse-- It took a lot of hard work for things like twin Viking landers to Mars and the Voyager planetary "grand tour" of the outer solar system to even happen-- they were both cancelled at one point to free up funding for shuttle development... Today we would know virtually nothing about the outer solar system, especially Saturn, if that had happened, and we'd have been ill-equipped to design the Galileo and Cassini missions out to Jupiter and Saturn, respectively, to say nothing of Pluto... Then there's the sad case of Hubble... corners were cut in the inspection of the mirror and instead of doing a proper test they did a quick-n-dirty test that didn't expose the flaw in the mirror that ultimately required ANOTHER billion dollar plus shuttle mission to correct... Plus the fact that the Hubble was delayed by years waiting its opportunity to be launched on shuttle, and of course it was designed for launch and servicing aboard shuttle, which saddled it with shuttle's limitations-- the opportunity cost of this was huge-- For instance, the best viewing location for a space telescope is not LEO, but out at one of the Lagrange points-- Say Earth/Moon Lagrange point 2 (EML-2) or one of the Sun/Earth Lagrange points (SEL 1 or 2, one lying between the Earth and Sun, the other lying outside the Earth's orbit directly opposite the Sun. From these vantage points, Hubble could have made round-the-clock observations from an extremely stable position, without the effects of orbiting a huge planet that would effectively "block it's view" every 45 minutes for 45 minutes as it swung around the planet in LEO. Then there's the huge thermal effects of the spacecraft going into the Earth's shadow after being heated to 250 degrees, and then dropping to 250 below, and coming out of Earth's shadow after a 45 minute cold soak at -250 degrees, back to the sunlight at 250 degrees... which caused several minutes of extreme vibration that made viewing impossible, and further shortened the viewing window by about 10 minutes per 90 minute orbit, and required the solar panels be redesigned and replaced in orbit to correct the problem... (something the Air Force had already experienced on spysats and knew about, but lack of communication and the secrecy of the spysat programs kept the information to correct the design from getting to those who needed it, which could have prevented a huge and expensive problem. Then of course there's Galileo, which also suffered years of delay and program problems due to the *requirement* that it be launched aboard shuttle. Galileo went through a couple of redesigns to the mission as first the inadequate solid propellant Inertial Upper Stage (IUS) was the only available stage to push Galileo through escape velocity, but insufficient to put it on course for Jupiter, requiring a series of planetary flybys, thus a complex course had to be calculated for it. Then the shuttle program was going to have the Shuttle/Centaur stage available, which was much more powerful and could propel Galileo to Jupiter directly, shaving years off the journey, so changes were made to the spacecraft to make it more capable-- replace weight and capabilities shaved out trying to improve the performance of the IUS... then of course Challenger happened, and the Shuttle/Centaur was canceled without having ever flown, and Galileo was forced back onto IUS, requiring another complex mission trajectory redesign... All the while Galileo sat in storage and its science program delayed for years, adding millions more in cost to the mission as necessary technicians required to prepare it for launch had to be retained, and equipment and personnel tied up while waiting for launch, and science personnel tied up for years waiting on the actual mission to begin... Of course the extra years in storage and extra time spent doing flybys to gain enough velocity to get to Jupiter caused the high-gain antenna to refuse to unfurl properly, like an umbrella frozen closed in cold weather... which nearly spelled the end of the mission before a work-around was figured out, using the low-gain antenna and special transmission methods to allow the complex data to be sent over this limited-capability low-power channel... Of course this came at a price-- only about half of the actual photography and sensor readings taken at Jupiter by Galileo actually was radioed back to Earth... we'll never know what discoveries were forever lost when the data had to be erased to make room for the next batch of observations, simply because the radio couldn't transmit it back to Earth fast enough on the low-gain channel... That's an opportunity cost that we can't get back, as much as the extra millions added to the program costs by the delays caused by choosing a complex manned vehicle for a simple probe launch...

At any rate, it's a huge mess, but it's not the first... they say history repeats itself... certainly looks that way to me...

Later! OL JR :)
 
"Bill Gerstenmaier, chief of space operations at NASA Headquarters, said the expanded lifetime will encourage increased commercial use of the lab complex, solidify the commercial launch market and provide critical insights into technology development and human physiology needed for eventual flights to deep space targets like Mars."

Really, that's enough reason right there.
 
"Bill Gerstenmaier, chief of space operations at NASA Headquarters, said the expanded lifetime will encourage increased commercial use of the lab complex, solidify the commercial launch market and provide critical insights into technology development and human physiology needed for eventual flights to deep space targets like Mars."

Really, that's enough reason right there.
If you're not intending to be sarcastic, you need to read Luke Strawwalkers post immediately above where he directly addresses that mostly farcical claim, with the exception of the valid develop the "commercial launch market" claim. There are better ways to do that than providing busywork supplying the ISS.
 
"...provide critical insights into technology development and human physiology needed for eventual flights to deep space targets like Mars."

Really, that's enough reason right there.

MiR did that too. Why are we still waiting then?
 
Totally agree... just like shuttle, ISS has become a case of "build it and they WON'T come..." Shuttle was supposed to enable the age of space manufacturing and massive amounts of space research aboard Spacelab and later Spacehab, and "man tended free-flyers" and all of that... NONE of which amounted to much of anything.

I wish I could find on YouTube the excellent talk by Elon Musk where he said that just about the dumbest thing one could do with a reusable launch vehicle would be to make it a winged vehicle. SpaceX is doing it the right way with their Falcon 9 where only the booster stage (at first) is returned to the launch site and because of that and other factors, the turn-around costs will be far lower than the cost of a new stage.

ECONOMIC MODEL OF REUSABLE VS. EXPENDABLE LAUNCH VEHICLES
IAF Congress, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Oct. 2–6, 2000

https://www.smad.com/analysis/iafpaper.pdf

ABSTRACT

It is generally assumed by the community that reusable launch vehicles will dramatically reduce launch costs because you don’t “throw away the vehicle” every time it is used. However, this is usually taken as an element of faith, without any substantive analysis to support the conclusion. The example of the Space Shuttle, originally sold to Congress on the basis of dramatically cutting launch costs, suggests that this conclusion might not be accurate under realistic conditions of development and operations.

CONCLUSIONS

Generally, expendable launch vehicles will continue to have a significant economic advantage over reusable vehicles until launch rates increase by well over 100 times. (At these large quantities it is probable that the current model or current set of input parameters are no longer valid.) If the modeled costs are achieved, then expendable vehicles have the potential of dropping launch costs by a factor of 5 to 10 in the near term. Also, given that the assumed costs can be achieved, new reusable vehicles should be cheaper then the Space Shuttle, and have a probable lower cost limit approximately equal to current launch costs. They may be able to reduce overall launch costs by a factor of 2 to 3 if the launch rates increase significantly. Amortizing costs over a period longer then 15 years will have only a marginal impact.

By that time one of two things will have happened-- 1) much of the data obtained on health effects on ISS will be of little use-- superseded by new developments in medicine, diagnostic and sensing equipment, and/or mitigation strategies and drugs aimed at minimizing health effects from long term microgee exposure, and 2) robotics will have advanced to such a point that a manned mission won't even be necessary-- it'll be an expensive and dangerous waste of time, to gather the same information that could have been gathered with robotic spacecraft for less cost, albeit at a slower pace, and from a more limited area and time compared to what a robotic probe could do, or better yet a SERIES of them for less money that what a single human mission would cost.

On point 1, not only that, but the Soviets must have accumulated huge amounts of data on that topic from their Salyut and Mir stations and now that they're no longer behind the Iron Curtain that info could be shared and should be fully adequate for a flight to Mars.

On point 2, that's exactly the smart way to explore space and the one I've always advocated - far lower than manned mission cost robotic missions to everywhere, developing highly valuable technologies like AI and robotics in the process and then, if it's still needed, sending a manned mission to do something machines by that point still couldn't do. Any long-term mission in Earth orbit, like a Hubble, should be designed from day one and bottom up for telepresence maintenance. I suspect that part of the USAF X-37B "space plane" mission is to test that sort of thing with our extremely expensive spysats, at first refueling them with any expendables they use like orbital maneuvering fuel and perhaps at some point in the future servicing them for electronics module failures. The same tech could be use for close inspection of other countries military sats and possibly placing little remotely controlled mines on them for wartime activation.

The problem with that kind of mostly unmanned program is that we are dealing with a legacy aerospace industry infrastructure that, like every other moneyed special interest, literally owns our government and a general public who either doesn't pay enough attention or wouldn't understand the fine points or aren't capable of the learned critical thought process if they did.

What's really the crime IMHO is that they're GUTTING the unmanned program to pay for SLS/Orion, which is USELESS without the hardware like habs and propulsion stages, etc. that is absolutely necessary to do anything of value that makes sense (beyond stunts like lassoing asteroids and dragging them back to cislunar space for Orion to go "visit"). NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden recently told the scientific community to "forget about any more "Flagship class" missions for the foreseeable future" due to the budget being all sucked up by SLS/Orion development-- a super rocket with no payloads, no missions, no destination, and an overbuilt capsule with no hardware for it to work with to do any meaningful missions, that will cost dozens of billions to develop and hundreds of millions a year just to sustain whether it flies or not, and will only fly about every 2-3 years by even the most optimistic projections, and will cost over $1.5 BILLION per flight by even the most rosy estimates (which always have a way of growing-- some "worst case" estimates I've seen put SLS flights at the $10-14 billion dollar range EACH, figuring in all the program costs...) At any rate, it's a rocket to nowhere for at least another decade, maybe two... In the meantime, we'll watch the our present "renaissance" in unmanned probe exploration of the solar system and nearby planets wind down, as our Cassini and Curiosity wind down and nothing's in the pipeline to replace them...

Agree 100% and its even worse than that:

https://www.space.com/24157-obama-legacy-in-planetary-exploration.html

The Obama administration cut NASA's planetary-sciences budget by 20 percent in 2013. It has taken the National Research Council's (NRC) recommendations for prioritizing planetary investments in bad economic times and turned those recommendations upside down. The administration continues to favor large, directed projects at the expense of programs and missions that are openly competed.

Now, the Obama Administration is preparing to go after the seed corn of the U.S. solar-system exploration program: its planetary research and analysis programs. Actions to be implemented over the next couple of months will have their primary impact in 2015, when many planetary scientists (primarily younger members of the community) will be forced to find other employment and careers — and many will not wait. This loss of critical manpower and capability cannot be restored overnight. It will take a generation.
 
MiR did that too. Why are we still waiting then?
Although I don't support a manned mission to Mars until robotic missions nail down the most promising spots for a manned mission if by then they are still needed due to insufficient AI and robotic tech, you are spot on with that comment as I just mentioned in my post above. Their claim that space medicine is a valuable contribution of the ISS is bogus.
 
MiR did that too. Why are we still waiting then?

Because NASA totally dismisses the Russian medical data they gathered from the last almost 30 years of space station flights, from the first Salyuts in the early 70's through the long duration Salyuts later into the 80's and finally aboard Mir.

Apparently the Russians' methodology and thinking is so peculiar that the US flight surgeons find their data mostly unusable... The Russians DO have some "unique" ways of thinking about problems, doing tests and experiments, conducting research, and making decisions... the US and Russia have locked horns more over medical issues regarding spaceflight than nearly any other issue from what I've read... Apparently the way in which some of the experiments have been conducted and the data gathered was done so in a way which invalidates the results, at least as far as US flight surgeon and medical research thinking goes. Hence, the quest to get our own data aboard ISS, even if it basically means duplicating decades of experience aboard Salyuts and Mir just to prove the point...

The validity of this claim in somewhat questionable... the Soviets/Russians aren't stupid... they're just, *different* in how they look at problems and how they do things. Course, from some things I've read, in some cases the US doctors and researchers have a point, and gathering their own data in some areas is probably wise...

After all, the Russians have done things like attempt an experimental shutdown of a scrammed nuclear reactor (one that has "tripped" and is not producing power, but still must be cooled to prevent meltdown) that was hot, and due to improper safety precautions and questionable procedures allowed the water level to get too low, the reactor to run away (water not only cools but moderates the reaction as well by slowing neutrons) and ultimately produce hydrogen gas and explode, contaminating an entire region around the reactor that's now a "no-man's land" as well as most of Western Europe... (the Chernobyl accident). They also decided to do some rather dubious and untried testing (and what had been tried had nearly caused a collision with the station a few months before) of a remote control docking system aboard Mir, with a frazzled and exhausted crew, poor line-of-sight and visibility of the Progress freighter, and ended up colliding with Mir and punching a hole in the Spektr module and nearly wrecking the station and killing the crew, all because their supply of KURS automatic docking boxes was running low because the Ukranian company that built them hadn't been getting paid from the Russian space program and had stopped shipment until they WERE paid... There's other examples as well I could cite, but these two jump immediately to mind... the Russians often jump in to rather dubious experiments that have not been well thought out or planned out ahead of time, and without really looking at and addressing "what happens if this or that goes wrong"...

That said, I hardly think a multidecade $200 billion dollar program is necessary to get the data their talking about-- that's a smoke screen for the fact that basically, ISS is only performing a FRACTION of the "science" that it was originally supposed to or envisioned to... and corporate/academic research interest has been very lackluster to say the least... this is in part because of the COST of doing research with NASA, and the fact that any research you do with NASA goes at a snails pace due to the bureaucracy, all the hurdles, and red tape, and hoops you have to jump through... We should have started with a smaller space station before jumping in with both feet on ISS... we could have done a "man tended free flyer" or a 2-3 module Skylab size or mini-Mir size station first-- but we'd have probably found that such a station was sufficient and therefore obviated the necessity of such a huge "Battlestar Galactica" program like ISS... and we couldn't have that!

Later! OL JR :)
 
What ISS seems to have demonstrated is the technology that we DON'T have for a manned Mars mission.

We don't seem to have flight capable, lightweight, cost effective radiation shielding.
We don't seem to have water recycling efficient enough for supplies to last for a three year mission without starting with an obscene volume/weight at the beginning of the trip.
We clearly don't have thrust/propellant technologies that can get a ship there in a short amount of time and we don't have the capability to generate oxygen/breathable atmosphere without constant resupply.
The idea of generating a habitable/breathable atmosphere by growing plants/algae remains solidly in the realm of science fiction.
From recent events, it also seems that the present state of technology used to build coolant pumps is considerably lacking in reliability. I mean, we keep replacing these things in LEO, just how many spares would a Mars mission need to take along?
Since each crew is limited to a six month "rotation" (more or less) do we really understand what happens on really long duration flights (at two and three years of continuous low - or zero - gravity)?

To prepare for an interplanetary mission(s) it would seem (to me) that it would be more helpful to build a small station at a LaGrange point.
It would also seem to be useful to begin the development of the technology to actually build larger things (ships, stations) in orbit instead of just replacing pumps, etc.

At the risk of asking a stupid question, I have always wondered at just how much space we would have available in orbit if we could assemble all the supply ships (end to end, Lego style) that have carried supplies to ISS over the last ten years. It seems like a huge waste to just deorbit them, especially when most of them have their own solar panels, etc.
 
What ISS seems to have demonstrated is the technology that we DON'T have for a manned Mars mission.

We don't seem to have flight capable, lightweight, cost effective radiation shielding.
We don't seem to have water recycling efficient enough for supplies to last for a three year mission without starting with an obscene volume/weight at the beginning of the trip.
We clearly don't have thrust/propellant technologies that can get a ship there in a short amount of time and we don't have the capability to generate oxygen/breathable atmosphere without constant resupply.
The idea of generating a habitable/breathable atmosphere by growing plants/algae remains solidly in the realm of science fiction.
From recent events, it also seems that the present state of technology used to build coolant pumps is considerably lacking in reliability. I mean, we keep replacing these things in LEO, just how many spares would a Mars mission need to take along?
Since each crew is limited to a six month "rotation" (more or less) do we really understand what happens on really long duration flights (at two and three years of continuous low - or zero - gravity)?

To prepare for an interplanetary mission(s) it would seem (to me) that it would be more helpful to build a small station at a LaGrange point.
It would also seem to be useful to begin the development of the technology to actually build larger things (ships, stations) in orbit instead of just replacing pumps, etc.

At the risk of asking a stupid question, I have always wondered at just how much space we would have available in orbit if we could assemble all the supply ships (end to end, Lego style) that have carried supplies to ISS over the last ten years. It seems like a huge waste to just deorbit them, especially when most of them have their own solar panels, etc.

Good points... the main thing ISS has taught us is how not to build a space station-- out of lightweight 20 ton modules orbited by a super-expensive and complex manned vehicle. As for what it will teach us about going to Mars-- well, I guess all that health research will be useful, if only to prove they have a handle on the issues and things aren't as bad as they all assumed.

On the radiation problem-- it depends on what kind of radiation your talking about-- there's two primary types and the solutions are different. First is solar particle events, aka solar flares, which spew high energy protons through space which can cause damage or even kill a crew at high enough levels. The good thing with this radiation is that 1) it's short lived, usually lasting only a few days at most, and 2) it's from a SINGLE SOURCE, ie the Sun, so we need only put shielding between the sun and the hab to minimize the exposure and reduce it to safe levels, more or less. Putting the mass of the vehicle's propulsion system and propellant tankage in a direction pointing toward the sun would alleviate a lot of the radiation. For extremely severe events, a "storm shelter" surrounded by water is sufficient protection, especially coupled with putting the "heavy parts" of the vehicle between yourself and the sun. Related to solar particle radiation is radiation from the Van Allen belts, which girdle Earth with rings of trapped by Earth's magnetic field of high energy solar particles from the solar wind, which eventually drop along the field lines into the upper atmosphere at both poles as the northern and southern lights (auroras). The solution to exposure here is to NOT hang out in the Van Allen belts... crossing them is fine, as the radiation exposure rate isn't too high (but high enough that you don't want to stick around) and if one uses a high thrust (usually chemical rocket engine) escape stage to accelerate the manned vehicle to escape velocity, it traverses the Van Allen belts in minutes to hours... not long enough to really get any real "dose" from the radiation there... the clincher comes in when you start talking about "low energy trajectories" or "advanced propulsion" which usually implies by its very nature low thrust, requiring a vehicle to 'spiral out' to escape velocity by slowly building up velocity over a single extremely long (but extremely efficient) burn of various electrical or plasma propulsion systems, be they powered by solar or nuclear power sources. Nuclear thermal rockets (NTR's) can produce high thrust at high efficiency, but those aren't even on the table-- the Prometheus program for a nuclear engine was the first thing axed to free up money for Constellation. Low-thrust high-efficiency systems like ion thrusters or Hall-effect thrusters and such (Solar Electric Propulsion or Nuclear Electric Propulsion, SEP or NEP) are fine for unmanned cargoes-- one need only radiation harden the electronics to live through multiple passes through the Radiation Belts while the vehicle slowly builds speed to escape velocity over a period of weeks or months, but for a manned vehicle this is simply unacceptable. I guess one could launch their transit vehicle to EML-2 or something and rendezvous with it there, but you'd still need a high-thrust rapid-acceleration short-transit-time chemical propulsion to get you past the Van Allen Belts with your manned portion of the mission as quickly as possible.

The second radiation issue is Galactic Cosmic Radiation, or GCR... heavy ions of iron and other heavy elements accelerated to relativistic speeds by supernovae... this is a far more pernicious form of radiation because 1) it comes from ALL DIRECTIONS and 2) it is EVER PRESENT. It is far more difficult to shield against. The metallic aluminum and alloy structures of spacecraft present a special danger, because the heavy ions sometimes collide with the atoms in the metallic structure, causing a spray of lighter high energy particles as the ion/metal atoms disintegrate-- a tiny "shotgun blast" of highly charged and accelerated particles that can then penetrate the bodies of the astronauts and cause all sorts of radiation damage to cells. Making the metallic shell of the spacecraft heavier only makes this effect worse, but the present solution is pretty cheap and it works, though not extremely effective-- if the spacecraft is lined with a layer of long-polymer plastic like polyethylene, this material is very good at trapping the particles and reducing the radiation exposure. Unfortunately, most of the radiation shielding that was designed into Orion was stripped out, during the attempts to make the spacecraft light enough to be lifted by the anemic Ares I booster rocket before it was cancelled. Of course this reduces the radiation protection for the astronauts when they're in the Orion for prolonged periods, like say on a lunar mission... As it turns out, inflatable habs are probably THE best way to minimize exposure to this 'secondary radiation' because the outer hull of the module is not metallic, but consists of many layers of Kevlar and insulation and load-bearing polymers and such, which are actually good shielding materials for this type of radiation (carbon-dense materials IIRC).

As for longer missions, GCR is going to be the main thing to deal with... a lot of it comes down to intelligent design-- if we can intelligently design the spacecraft so that the water and food and other materials are stored toward the outside, with the crew living and working behind all that stuff acting as shielding, that will go a long way to solving the problem. Of course this complicates matters if you want to build a spacecraft with centrifugally induced artificial gravity, since that effect is greatest out around the perimeter of the spacecraft and least in near the rotational hub, but again, creative spacecraft design can work wonders with this... a hab spinning on one end of a beam with the lander/Orion at the other for a counterbalance, for instance, or the propulsion stage for a counterbalance, so that the hab module consisted of a series of "floors", each being arranged with the living/working area at the center and the stores/provisions, water, and equipment arranged all around the core area along and on and in the walls, for instance... it would require climbing down the core from one level to another, but that would be good exercise, and it would result in lower gravity in the upper levels than the lower ones, but it could be made to work... I'm sure someone smarter could come up with a MUCH better solution though. BTW I think AG is going to be important, if for no other reason than simplifying things like hygiene and housekeeping a bit... even 1/3 or 1/6 gravity would allow the use of a "normal" (though of course highly modified compared to Earth) design for the toilet and shower... which will be important items for morale on a long mission... Who's gonna want to bathe with wet-naps or a washcloth or scrape their poop down the hole of the space toity for two years?? Being able to take a limited shower (without having to vacuum the walls like in Skylab) and being able to flush (rather than tape a bag to your butt or scrape the crap down the hole with a spatula after you're done and vacuum the toity enclosure after every BM) is going to be really important for morale and to keep folks from going nuts in the long run...

As for the thing about all the resupply modules and stuff-- well, sure, some of them could be used for "extra space"... they kept one of the ISS resupply modules from the shuttle up there for just that reason IIRC... or maybe it was a European ATV, can't recall ATM... but they're not equipped with the systems needed, like thermal control, air scrubbers, etc. to make them habitable volume in large quantities... IOW if they're small and connected to something else providing services, they're fine... on their own, they're little use unless they can be connected to something else. Plus, most of them aren't designed for any long duration sort of lifetime on orbit anyway, or to be reused for much of anything else... Another thing is most of these modules serve as "trash dumpsters" for the space station... Progress is basically a modified Soyuz, without the Descent Module in which the cosmonauts ride-- basically just the "Orbital Module" which on a Soyuz is discarded to burn up before reentry. In place of the DM is an adapter section housing propellant and water tanks, with lines which can automatically connect to the Russian docking system on their module, to transfer propellants over to the stations maneuvering (reboost) thrusters... Not sure if they connect the water up for transfer that way or if they use a hose from inside the pressurized module, connected to the tanks below... At any rate, the fluids are pumped over to the station (just as they did with Salyut and Mir, for which Progress was originally invented) while the crew opens the pressurized OM and removes the packed supplies. The vehicle is then filled with trash, junk equipment and used-up waste experiment material, dirty clothes, etc, and when it's full or they run out of garbage, it's sealed up the airlock closed and the thing is jettisoned with the load of trash, to reenter the atmosphere and burn up. Remember no space station since Skylab had it's own "septic tank" (the unused and unpressurized LO2 tank from the S-IVB stage of the original S-IVB that Skylab was constructed from-- they installed a "trash airlock" in the common bulkhead between the pressurized habitat in the LH2 upper tank and the lower unpressurized LO2 tank, and then "flushed" all their garbage down into the LO2 tank as stuff was used up and thrown away, including all their clothes-- all the astronaut clothing is worn once and thrown away on the stations, as it has been since the first space stations in the early 70's... another HUGE logistical problem to overcome before a Mars mission-- they're going to have to invent a space washer and dryer to minimize mass and space requirements for clothing! That's one of the biggies on the resupply issue with ISS...

The just-launched Cygnus resupply craft is just a cheap knockoff of Progress, without the tanker capability. It's a pressurized can into which supplies are packed, berthed at the station, unpacked, and garbage and junk stuffed in to be disposed of. Cygnus has no heat shield, so it can only serve as a trash dumpster, just like Progress, after its delivery mission is complete. It separates from the station, maneuvers away, and deorbits to burn up with its load of garbage and dirty clothes and junk. The Japanese HTV resupply vehicle is the same way, as is the European ATV resupply craft.

The only vehicle that's different (and so far, unique) is the SpaceX Dragon, which IS equipped with a heat shield and designed for reentry and return of materials to Earth from space, as well as transporting them upstairs from the ground. This is basically doing the job shuttle used to do, transporting equipment and completed experiments (or materials from them) back to the ground for further analysis, study, or use (or reuse). Due to the small size and limited capabilities of Soyuz, basically anything much over pocket size cannot be returned via Soyuz with a crew... and launching an unmanned Soyuz with a DM simply to return hardware or experiments would be incredibly expensive and inefficient. Hence the unique role Dragon plays in the ISS program-- at least/until some other company duplicates that capability, be it Sierra Nevada with their Dream Chaser, or Boeing with the CST-100 crew vehicle...

Your idea sort of reminds me of the early days of shuttle, when it was thought that the ET could be kept in orbit for conversion into "wet workshops" and stuff like that... they were certainly bigger than Skylab and I've seen artwork of even RINGS of ET's joined nose to tail like a parade of elephants going in a circle, creating a 2001-like ring station, but it wasn't realistic-- conversion would add enormous costs, and besides, the foam coating on the ET's was never designed for prolonged exposure to the space environment-- it "popcorned" off into bits and fragments that would float around like a debris cloud and drift off slowly into other orbits, presenting a space debris hazard to other spacecraft (granted, probably a short-lived one given the mass/area ratios and drag effects at the normal altitudes shuttle flew to, but still, a hazard nonetheless). No real solution to this was forthcoming, so the idea was just dismissed out of hand.

Later! OL JR :)
 
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What ISS seems to have demonstrated is the technology that we DON'T have for a manned Mars mission.
We have lots of technology today that did not exist when ISS was designed.

We don't seem to have flight capable, lightweight, cost effective radiation shielding.

Heavy radiation shielding is not needed in LEO because the earth's magnetic field deflects most of the energetic particles that cause the problem.

Water is the key to radiation shielding, and to long term deep space travel. Spacecraft design has not incorporated this, but then again we have never designed a deep space manned vehicle. The most efficient way to do this is to make a thermos bottle in reverse. Put water in the vacuum space and put the human where the soup is....

We don't seem to have water recycling efficient enough for supplies to last for a three year mission without starting with an obscene volume/weight at the beginning of the trip.
We didn't when ISS was designed, but one is installed in ISS now. The problem ISS has with water is that it generates it, but you can't dump it into space as it condenses on the outside and contaminates the surfaces. The excess water comes from the food supplies and the respiration of the astronauts. It is recycled but there is IIFRC 1 1/2 to 2 tons excess water generation per year on ISS... You can just dump the trash out the door either. You would collide with in on a later orbit. That's why we take the supply vehicle and use their reentry to incinerate the trash...

We clearly don't have thrust/propellant technologies that can get a ship there in a short amount of time and we don't have the capability to generate oxygen/breathable atmosphere without constant resupply.

You are correct that we do not have propulsion to get there faster, and IMO will not have it in the foreseeable future.

ISS does have a water surplus and we do have the technology to electrolyze water into O2 and H2 but we don't have the power to do it. We do have the power technology however until we install a nuclear power generator on station, it remains earthbound.

The idea of generating a habitable/breathable atmosphere by growing plants/algae remains solidly in the realm of science fiction.

Not really. If you buy my idea on water shielding surround the human habitat it becomes trivial. You want 1' to 2' of water shielding around the habitat. Once you make the design changes to do this, you can add algae and fish to the ecosystem and then generate oxygen, recycle waste, and make protein rather easily. But you do need a nuclear power plant to generate the power.

From recent events, it also seems that the present state of technology used to build coolant pumps is considerably lacking in reliability. I mean, we keep replacing these things in LEO, just how many spares would a Mars mission need to take along?

I don't buy your premise on the state of technology. It was bad engineering optimizations, material selection or both. The old postwar refrigerators from GE and others ran until you got sick of them. The rubber gasket on the door seal failed after 20 to 30 year and it was cheaper to buy a new, quieter and more efficient one than to replace the door gasket, but the basic refrigeration loop was unstoppable.

In the mid-80's the piston compressors were replaced by a factory sealed scroll compressors (from Mitsubishi IIRC) which were much more efficient and longer lasting. Unfortunately they started to fail after a few years, not because of the design, or the motor, or leaks, but because the motor start capacitors (supplied by Sprague Electric IIRC) were defective. Since the capacitors were moved from an external replaceable location to inside the hermetically sealed compressor, they were not replaceable and the unit was not repairable. Bad design and bad QC. Once the capacitors were redesigned the compressor units are used everywhere.

I'm not sure what happens to the compressors on ISS, but you shouldn't have to replace them so often. Unfortunately ISS parts are essentially 1 offs and have not been as rigorously as commercial products made by the millions.....

Since each crew is limited to a six month "rotation" (more or less) do we really understand what happens on really long duration flights (at two and three years of continuous low - or zero - gravity)?

I believe that several astronauts and cosmonauts have done multiple tours on ISS with close to 2 years in space for the most experienced. I think we have a pretty good understanding of what changes occur to the human body on long space missions. That's one reason why there is a vigorous PE regiment for folks on ISS.
To prepare for an interplanetary mission(s) it would seem (to me) that it would be more helpful to build a small station at a LaGrange point.

IMO LEO is a better location. Most of the heavy lifting is to get mass to space, and it take more energy to get to the LaGrange point than to LEO. Since only a small fraction launched into space will actually go into a Deep Space Transporter, you are better off in LEO IMO.

It would also seem to be useful to begin the development of the technology to actually build larger things (ships, stations) in orbit instead of just replacing pumps, etc.

Agreed. But remember we did build ISS in space..... Unfortunately we used the expensive Shuttle to get ISS components into orbit instead of big dumb cargo rockets. The smaller Shuttle required at least 10x as many flights as big dumb cargo rocket would. The delivery time could also be reduced by at least a factor of 10 as well, reducing the 2 decade assembly time to 2 years or less....

At the risk of asking a stupid question, I have always wondered at just how much space we would have available in orbit if we could assemble all the supply ships (end to end, Lego style) that have carried supplies to ISS over the last ten years. It seems like a huge waste to just deorbit them, especially when most of them have their own solar panels, etc.

It's not a stupid question. Our first space station, Skylab was huge. It was essentially the empty upper stage fuel tank of the Saturn V. Big volume, low cost, lightweight. Just what you need for a Deep Space Transport.....

Bob
 
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