3D Printing Infill and Fin Strength

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I printed a fin can last night. It has 6 fins and fits a 4 inch tube. I did not look at the filament usage on this baby or weight. With a 15% infill, this baby is a beast. I have decided that I am going to test if infill is even needed at all.

I am going to print this same fin can with 0%, 1%, 2%, 4%, 8%, and the 15% and weigh them. I plan to assemble them on rockets and then launch them with a G motor and see if they survive. I have a feeling the 0% will survive a G. Heck, I might even try it with an H550.
 
I printed a fin can last night. It has 6 fins and fits a 4 inch tube. I did not look at the filament usage on this baby or weight. With a 15% infill, this baby is a beast. I have decided that I am going to test if infill is even needed at all.

I am going to print this same fin can with 0%, 1%, 2%, 4%, 8%, and the 15% and weigh them. I plan to assemble them on rockets and then launch them with a G motor and see if they survive. I have a feeling the 0% will survive a G. Heck, I might even try it with an H550.

How many walls? could be that the amount of infill required is low due to the # of walls.
 
It'll be great to see what you come up with. For me 50% gyroid infill has tested the strongest.
https://www.jcrocket.com/printed-components.shtml#hypothesis3

Thank John. I am going to approach it slightly different. I could do justice to the data you collected.

I will post it here. My goal is simply to do a fin can and see how much infil is required to have enough strength for flying. I may test the winner (lowest infill to survive) with an H550.

I reviewed a few videos on models printed without infill at all. One was by 3d printing nerd. It peaked my interest.
 
@thzero correct and @JohnCoker 's tests look great. I thought CNC Kitchen did some testing of perimeters versus infill as well.
Yes, for a great series of videos on 3D printing strength, in YouTube search for “CNC Kitchen strength”. Stephen has a variety of videos where he tests a lot of different printing parameters.

I assume 'wall loops' are the same as perimeters? Your testing shows how variable 3D printing can be. As a counter-point, it would be interesting to compare different grades of plywood, like 3-ply vs. 5 ply.

And thanks for posting that OpenSCAD file John, it’s always great to have a good example to follow. You should always put a 'sig line' at the start of the file so folks know where it came from – I've found that very helpful when I wanted to see if there had been any updates. I liked how you handled chamfers, I've never chamfered the edge of cylinder so it will be nice to have that reference if I need to do it in the future. I also liked the strength of testing

Good stuff all around!


Tony
 
I printed a fin can last night. It has 6 fins and fits a 4 inch tube. I did not look at the filament usage on this baby or weight. With a 15% infill, this baby is a beast. I have decided that I am going to test if infill is even needed at all.

I am going to print this same fin can with 0%, 1%, 2%, 4%, 8%, and the 15% and weigh them. I plan to assemble them on rockets and then launch them with a G motor and see if they survive. I have a feeling the 0% will survive a G. Heck, I might even try it with an H550.
Regarding fins, I did some testing and found the a 'double-diamond' root profile gave me the strongest fins. (Like those on the Nike Smoke.) Some day when we can use non-planar slicing and printing reliably, that will solve a lot of the issues with layer directions for fins and nosecones.


Tony
 
Regarding fins, I did some testing and found the a 'double-diamond' root profile gave me the strongest fins. (Like those on the Nike Smoke.) Some day when we can use non-planar slicing and printing reliably, that will solve a lot of the issues with layer directions for fins and nosecones.


Tony
Thanks.
 
How many walls? could be that the amount of infill required is low due to the # of walls.
Agreed I have found that number of walls make a huge difference in strength.
2 walls 40% < 4 wall 10%
^
Not scientific or anything but my general belief
 
I assume 'wall loops' are the same as perimeters? Your testing shows how variable 3D printing can be. As a counter-point, it would be interesting to compare different grades of plywood, like 3-ply vs. 5 ply.
Yes, the number of loops on the side walls (X/Y perimiter). It's called "wall loops" in the Prusa/Bambu slider.
 
Curious why infill less than 100% is used at all on any structural component, especially a component that is also in the wind, unless it's for some sort of scale model to match dimensions or aft weight is some big concern?

I have a little sport 29mm 3d printed rocket which probably has ~15 successful flights on the design (and no shreds). It's flies fine on H-268s/I-200s to ~mach1.25. I use 100% infill on everything structural with fins that have 0.125in thick root, .0625in thick tip, .057in thick body tube and nosecone. I use Protopasta's carbon PET or HTPLA.
 
Curious why infill less than 100% is used at all on any structural component, especially a component that is also in the wind, unless it's for some sort of scale model to match dimensions or aft weight is some big concern?

I have a little sport 29mm 3d printed rocket which probably has ~15 successful flights on the design (and no shreds). It's flies fine on H-268s/I-200s to ~mach1.25. I use 100% infill on everything structural with fins that have 0.125in thick root, .0625in thick tip, .057in thick body tube and nosecone. I use Protopasta's carbon PET or HTPLA.
With 100 percent infill, the material in the middle contributes more to mass than it does to stiffness and strength. And mass in the wrong place means a lower flutter speed. Plus lower speed off the launch rod and sometimes lower apogees, of course. There is a reason people build foam core wings, use i-beams, girders, etc.
 
Curious why infill less than 100% is used at all on any structural component, especially a component that is also in the wind, unless it's for some sort of scale model to match dimensions or aft weight is some big concern?

I have a little sport 29mm 3d printed rocket which probably has ~15 successful flights on the design (and no shreds). It's flies fine on H-268s/I-200s to ~mach1.25. I use 100% infill on everything structural with fins that have 0.125in thick root, .0625in thick tip, .057in thick body tube and nosecone. I use Protopasta's carbon PET or HTPLA.
Once you go above 40-50% infill, all you are adding is mass in most cases.
 
Curious why infill less than 100% is used at all on any structural component, especially a component that is also in the wind, unless it's for some sort of scale model to match dimensions or aft weight is some big concern?

I have a little sport 29mm 3d printed rocket which probably has ~15 successful flights on the design (and no shreds). It's flies fine on H-268s/I-200s to ~mach1.25. I use 100% infill on everything structural with fins that have 0.125in thick root, .0625in thick tip, .057in thick body tube and nosecone. I use Protopasta's carbon PET or HTPLA.

Show us your design and some slicer cross sections. At those measurements its probably mostly walls/perimeters as opposed to infill.
 
With 100 percent infill, the material in the middle contributes more to mass than it does to stiffness and strength. And mass in the wrong place means a lower flutter speed. Plus lower speed off the launch rod and sometimes lower apogees, of course. There is a reason people build foam core wings, use i-beams, girders, etc.
100% infill also makes it much more difficult to control warping, shrinkage, and other problems. Maybe not an issue most of the time, but could crop up with thicker parts or certain materials (e.g., ABS).
 
Once you go above 40-50% infill, all you are adding is mass in most cases.
Material towards the center of the fin contributes less to bending stiffness but not nothing. Here's a link to a summary on CLT, math that can be used to predict how these materials will behave (in the linear regime). The D matrix in equation 3 is what you want - (zk^3-zk_1^3) where zk is the distance from the center of the plate to the outer side of layer k, and zk_1 is also from the center but to the inner side of layer k.

For my little rocket above, where thickness at the root is 0.125", here's what the bending stiffness contribution of each layer looks like, normalized by the outer most layer:
1714917132886.png

The other thing I like really about solid infill (especially on fins, but also bulkheads), is I find that the resulting part "glues" itself together much better than when I use some low percentage infill. My printer settings are not very dialed in anymore, but if I go very thin on my perimeters, I find that my layer adhesion isn't nearly as good.

Finally, as your fins get thicker, they're still subjected to a drag force which is increasing by the square of the frontal area - you're adding to the total force the fin is subjected to. In plane behavior becomes more important, and the infill isn't contributing much here.

With 100 percent infill, the material in the middle contributes more to mass than it does to stiffness and strength. And mass in the wrong place means a lower flutter speed. Plus lower speed off the launch rod and sometimes lower apogees, of course. There is a reason people build foam core wings, use i-beams, girders, etc.
3D printing does allow for all sorts of other cool ways to manipulate where you want material though - for example, my fin root is 1/2 the thickness of my fin tip. Like I said in my first post, I understand there are cases where you need to reduce weight in the back, but for most 3/4FNC I don't think that's the case.

Show us your design and some slicer cross sections. At those measurements its probably mostly walls/perimeters as opposed to infill.
For my fincans, they're actually all perimeters. I bump the number of perimeters up so that I get material going from my fin roots directly to my fin tips, rather than the +/-45 solid rectilinear infill. If I could figure out some way to fill on each fin (3, sometimes 4) during a single print, where the local orientation in each fin was some +/-angle like angle=20, that's probably what I would do.

100% infill also makes it much more difficult to control warping, shrinkage, and other problems. Maybe not an issue most of the time, but could crop up with thicker parts or certain materials (e.g., ABS).
This is a great point, which did take some iteration to get right now that I think back. Having said that, I don't find solid infill to be noticeably worse on typical rocket prints than something printed with infill.
 
At risk of being pedantic, and also noting I'm not a materials engineer and look forward to being corrected, a reminder for this discussion that "strength" means a lot of different things, and the "strength" of FDM prints is significantly anisotropic---much more robust against some forces in some directions than others.

For example, say I FDM a whole body tube in the natural way (circle on the XY, long axis of the tube along Z). It's going to be pretty robust in normal ascent, because it's compressive on the Z print axis. The thrust and air resistance are pushing together what's essentially a stack of plastic rings, so they're working against the compressability of solid material. In contrast, karate chop that tube on its side, the XY print plane, and multiple things could happen: 1) It could much more readily shear between layers, the bond between layers along the Z axis being generally much weaker than a uniform extrusion on the XY plane; 2) It could crush if the circle's arch and the XY structure (perimeters and infill) can't handle the force.

Maybe YOUR rockets aren't subject to spontaneous ninja attacks. But I'll bet they do suffer from, say, sometimes descending at an angle, such that a rear tip hits the ground and is subjected to force in the (more or less) opposite direction from the rest of the rocket still continuing down. Setting aside other problems like crushing, penetration, etc., I'd expect such a rocket to crack between layers in this kind of scenario much more easily than any problem the ascent phase is going to impose.

PXL_20240505_140209743.jpg

The main point is that a fin canister is almost certainly going to be printed with the body circle and fin protrusions on the print XY. So it'll be much stronger against thrust than it is against other forces, especially landing and transport. I can readily envision a 0 infill thick fin that I'd expect to fly fine but be very brittle to landing & handling. There could be other problems as well, e.g., does any shock cord mount design integral to the canister lead to compressive forces or tensile forces? I'd expect the latter to be more challenging for this kind of printed part.

Conversely, a large fin printed on its own standing up, i.e., with the cross-section on the XY and the root parallel with the print plate, would be subject to forces in flight (shearing) in precisely the part's weakest direction. Avoiding this is the same reason you cut solid wood fins with the leading edge aligned to the grain, so flight forces are against the grain rather than with it.

So it's useful to be explicit about what kind and direction of strength we're talking about, and how the part was printed, in terms of orientation as well as parameters.
 
The main point is that a fin canister is almost certainly going to be printed with the body circle and fin protrusions on the print XY. So it'll be much stronger against thrust than it is against other forces, especially landing and transport. I can readily envision a 0 infill thick fin that I'd expect to fly fine but be very brittle to landing & handling. There could be other problems as well, e.g., does any shock cord mount design integral to the canister lead to compressive forces or tensile forces? I'd expect the latter to be more challenging for this kind of printed part.

Conversely, a large fin printed on its own standing up, i.e., with the cross-section on the XY and the root parallel with the print plate, would be subject to forces in flight (shearing) in precisely the part's weakest direction. Avoiding this is the same reason you cut solid wood fins with the leading edge aligned to the grain, so flight forces are against the grain rather than with it.

So it's useful to be explicit about what kind and direction of strength we're talking about, and how the part was printed, in terms of orientation as well as parameters.
Agreed - orientation that everything is printed is super important, and something I should have described. I print my tubing such that each loop is in the x/y plane and the length is in the z. I print my fincans with the tubing in the same orientation, but the fin leading edge faces down (the sweep means I don't need support).

My specific design only doesn't have the issue you describe because the motor case supports all the tubing other than an inch or two between the forward end of the motor and the fincan. I've never had a problem like you describe in a flight or recovery, although these tubes break exactly like you describe if I try to snap them.

If I were going to print a tube that had to support itself and be robust for say a 2-3 inch rocket, I would probably reduce perimeters to 1-2, and have a little thickness in between such that I get the +/-45 solid infill. Having said that, I'm not that interested in a fully printed big rocket - there are just better and easier and cheaper materials out there.

Related to your point, most infill patterns are going to do a better job carrying the shear in some orientations than others, if I was going this route I'd be really careful about how my infill pattern was oriented for each stiffened panel/fin.
 
Thinking about it more, some of my thoughts above implicitly assume simple exposure to the forces involved, e.g., a square fin, and focus on the thrust phase.

In reality, for many designs the layered approximation of Z axis cross-section of a naturally oriented fin canister would introduce vulnerability to delaminating forces. E.g., in exaggeration:

PXL_20240505_143357173.jpg

FDM layers only approximate the Z outline, leading to the stepped pattern of the leading edges of the fins here. If those exposed outer sections are pushed differently by drag, it would produce a delaminating action relative to the higher layers. Like peeling a sticker, you try to catch the backing layer and not the printed layer. This intrinsically happens at the root fin/tube junction, there's a peeling action created by the exposed fin layer extended out from the tube into the airflow, but in most cases the remaining lower layers shore it up. A kind of pattern that would somewhat increase that effect though would be a shallow angle, such that the layers had to be backed off quite a bit in XY relative to the tube to approximate the shape in Z, or a concavity in the Z shape. The former would apply more drag force to the lower layer, and the latter would be comparatively unsupported.

Worse though, consider the coast phase in ascent. In the thrust phase, the thrust is essentially by definition dominating the drag, or else your rocket wouldn't go anywhere. So if the fins are rigid enough there's a compressive force. But once coasting, drag pushes down on the leading edges of the fin layers more than it does the tube layers. At that point the only thing holding your rocket together is the layer adhesion at the top of the fins, which is comparatively very weak. I guess inertia counters that drag force somewhat, but the rigidity of the tail doesn't seem to. Imagine running your hand or a collar circled around the tube down the length of the latter. Even if the tail is a brick, you could pop it right off if you apply enough force to overcome the single layer adhesion where the fins begin.
 
Agreed - orientation that everything is printed is super important, and something I should have described.

Just noting that my last two posts are toward the conversation in general and not specifically your points about infill, @robopup. At first glance a bunch of what I'm saying is somewhat independent of that, though in some ways supports more infill. E.g., in my last post about popping off the tail, with more or solid infill you'd have a larger contact patch between the two layers, so more adhesion holding them together.
 
Interesting discussion, good food for thought. In many of the testing videos I’ve watched and in my own personal testing, I’ve found adding additional perimeters (what the Prusa Slicer for my Mk3 and 4 calls them) has the greatest impact on strength over infill for many of my use cases. I suspect it’s because perimeter layers are printed at a much lower speed and have better inter-layer bonding than infill layers that are typically printed at high speed.

In many of my parts, the infill basically acts as support for the top layers. But I print a lot of construction jigs and the like. For actual flight articles, which have been mostly nose cones, those walls have been no infill and all perimeters, same with my fins. But I’ve only done 29mm so not very representative.

Stephen from CNC Kitchen on YouTube and his website has many videos on strength, but as seems to be the case with 3D printing, his results may not transfer to other printers or filament brands reliably.


Tony
 
snip

Finally, as your fins get thicker, they're still subjected to a drag force which is increasing by the square of the frontal area - you're adding to the total force the fin is subjected to. In plane behavior becomes more important, and the infill isn't contributing much here.


snip


Is that some supersonic thing? Because that's NOT how it works in subsonic aerodynamics. Sure, more thickness often leads to more drag, at least after a certain point, but in no way is it anywhere near the square of the frontal area. For instance, if we look at the data in Theory of WIng Sections, a NACA 0006 at a Reynolds number of 3 million has a drag coefficient of about .005. For a NACA 0012, it's under .006.

https://www3.nd.edu/~ame40431/AME20...ingSectionsIncludingASummaryOfAirfoilData.pdf

Maybe a real fin would only get down to a drag coefficient of .010, barring some serious effort put into smoothing it out That's still a whole lot smaller than the possible lift coefficient if the rocket yaws. I suppose a few rough spots and large splattered bugs could get that drag up to .025. And maybe an egregious fin with a square leading edge could get up to 0.1. However, even the 0006 can hang on until above a lift coefficient of 0.8. Maybe more with a sharp edged foil and a swept leading edge to generate vortex lift. Plus, that lift is loading the fin the thin way, a direction in which it's much weaker and floppier. Do any fins really fail straight back? I seriously doubt it.

----------

BTW, even if the balance point is the same, more weight without significantly more stiffness means a lower flutter frequency. omega=sqrt(k/m), where k is the spring constant and m is the mass. Of course, we're not dealing with a point mass or a simple spring, but the general principal holds.
 
I’ve found adding additional perimeters (what the Prusa Slicer for my Mk3 and 4 calls them) has the greatest impact on strength over infill for many of my use cases. I suspect it’s because perimeter layers are printed at a much lower speed and have better inter-layer bonding than infill layers that are typically printed at high speed.
Bingo. That is what almost all testers have found. You can minimize the infill and increase the outs parameters to increase strength. I am note sure how well it would work on a bulkhead, but it works on fins.
 
Is that some supersonic thing? Because that's NOT how it works in subsonic aerodynamics. Sure, more thickness often leads to more drag, at least after a certain point, but in no way is it anywhere near the square of the frontal area. For instance, if we look at the data in Theory of WIng Sections, a NACA 0006 at a Reynolds number of 3 million has a drag coefficient of about .005. For a NACA 0012, it's under .006.

https://www3.nd.edu/~ame40431/AME20...ingSectionsIncludingASummaryOfAirfoilData.pdf

Maybe a real fin would only get down to a drag coefficient of .010, barring some serious effort put into smoothing it out That's still a whole lot smaller than the possible lift coefficient if the rocket yaws. I suppose a few rough spots and large splattered bugs could get that drag up to .025. And maybe an egregious fin with a square leading edge could get up to 0.1. However, even the 0006 can hang on until above a lift coefficient of 0.8. Maybe more with a sharp edged foil and a swept leading edge to generate vortex lift. Plus, that lift is loading the fin the thin way, a direction in which it's much weaker and floppier. Do any fins really fail straight back? I seriously doubt it.
I'm not talking about drag coefficient, I'm talking about drag. But my apologies, I did misspeak, drag and is increasing *linearly* with area, where Drag = 1/2*air_density*(velocity^2)*area_reference*drag_coefficient and area_reference is usually the frontal area of the fin (if we're focused on just its contribution to drag). In other words, double the fin thickness and you've doubled the drag force that fin experiences (in addition to whatever change in drag_coefficient due to the changed airfoil).

BTW, even if the balance point is the same, more weight without significantly more stiffness means a lower flutter frequency. omega=sqrt(k/m), where k is the spring constant and m is the mass. Of course, we're not dealing with a point mass or a simple spring, but the general principal holds.
Sure, but if I'm already not fluttering with (what I assume is) a much thinner fin, at (again, what I assume is) a much faster speed, I'm not particularly concerned with putting more effort designing for it. I think in general, a lot of fin failures that flutter takes the blame for are actually construction problems - bad 3d printed bond, bad composite layup etc.
 
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Compression vs Shear… it is going to come down to shear strength for durability. Orientation is the key. The basic webbing infill is way strong enough unless the percentage is too low. Not because of compression (although it is some) but the larger percentages adds to the shear just by mass.

In very basic terms, it’s no different that using balsa.
 
Compression vs Shear… it is going to come down to shear strength for durability. Orientation is the key. The basic webbing infill is way strong enough unless the percentage is too low. Not because of compression (although it is some) but the larger percentages adds to the shear just by mass.

In very basic terms, it’s no different that using balsa.
Good point!
 
Well I have had to revisit what I do. I just made a 6 inch fat boy, and printed the fins. 9.5 mm thick, 4 perimeters, 30% cubic infill, ASA. Launched on a J350 and the flight was great. In retrospect, I used too small of a chute (it was the largest I had). The rocket was heavy and came down fast enough to bounce off the sod several feet back into the air. Cracked one fin, and basically broke it from the the body/motor tubes. Easily fixed (and in the future I need a much larger chute).

I already printed all the parts for a 6 inch big daddy as well. Same settings. So I am tempted to do a tip to tip fiberglass layup over the fins (has saved me with some other large finned fat rockets when landings weren't ideal). I am not sure if I could have changed much to make the landing survivable, when I saw it bounce that high I knew something was going to break. Maybe I should increase to 50% infill. Not sure if trying CF of GF filament would help with this either. I am going to print John's Nike smoke as an excuse to use an I65, so I have an opportunity to reconsider my settings for that.
 
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