Hybrids 2024

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Working to complete my GSE, I picked up a 35# supply tank from scAmazon. It came with a dip tube, and a CGA320 valve, which I will replace with a CGA660 valve. I debated getting a K cylinder, but the weight would make hauling it 500ft into the field a not so appealing option. So now I have a 20# and a 35# option depending on what size motors I plan to fly. My friend, @maddmaxx11, has a 10# supply tank, so we should be good, if we could only come up with a field that flies year around.IMG_0956.jpg
 
Damn, less than a week to ship from the US to Australia, and that’s including a weekend! I don’t feel so bad about the cost of shipping stuff to Australia now!

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That 38mm 16 inch case is great. Back when I was in college we used one to get started in EX hybrids (and hybrids in general with the G100 reload). Ended up with basically a full H / baby I using CNVAs and 4 inch printed grains.
 
Working to complete my GSE, I picked up a 35# supply tank from scAmazon. It came with a dip tube, and a CGA320 valve, which I will replace with a CGA660 valve. I debated getting a K cylinder, but the weight would make hauling it 500ft into the field a not so appealing option. So now I have a 20# and a 35# option depending on what size motors I plan to fly. My friend, @maddmaxx11, has a 10# supply tank, so we should be good, if we could only come up with a field that flies year around.View attachment 631825

Tom sells some aluminum K bottles on his website with the CGA 660 valves and high flow dip tubes. Maybe half the weight of the steel tanks and even filled with nitrous like, a third lighter than a normal bottle. Only problem is with aluminum cylinders the DOT requires hydro-testing every 5 years instead of every 10 and if your bottle is out-of-date you'll be hard pressed to find someone who will fill it.
 
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Tom sells some aluminum K bottles on his website with the CGA 660 valves and high flow dip tubes. Maybe half the weight of the steel tanks and even filled with nitrous like, a third lighter than a normal bottle. Only problem is with aluminum cylinders the DOT requires hydro-testing every 5 years instead of every 10 and if your bottle is out-of-date you'll be hard pressed to find someone who will fill it.
Don’t have on website but have 20 pound aluminum cylinders as well.
 
That 38mm 16 inch case is great. Back when I was in college we used one to get started in EX hybrids (and hybrids in general with the G100 reload). Ended up with basically a full H / baby I using CNVAs and 4 inch printed grains.
I'll be flying a few G-130 reloads first then setting sights on L2. CNVA with short 3d printed ABS or ASA grains are the eventual plan though, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the grains I've been printing for micro hybrids scale up!
 
I'll be flying a few G-130 reloads first then setting sights on L2. CNVA with short 3d printed ABS or ASA grains are the eventual plan though, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the grains I've been printing for micro hybrids scale up!
You need a certified motor and certified reload for a cert flight. So don't use all your reloads for testing. Do you have a TAP/Prefect lined up?
 
You need a certified motor and certified reload for a cert flight. So don't use all your reloads for testing. Do you have a TAP/Prefect lined up?
I do finally have some communication going with QRS and can certify with them, and a couple of people have reached out to let me know about what I need to do with licences if I need to fly in NSW too.

I want to make sure all my ground support works ahead of time though, so that there is no possibility of surprises on launch day. I’ll probably need to do a couple fill and dumps for that, but that can be done without ignition and I can’t imagine needing to do more than one successful static fire if the ground support setup has already been properly checked by that point.
 
I do finally have some communication going with QRS and can certify with them, and a couple of people have reached out to let me know about what I need to do with licences if I need to fly in NSW too.

I want to make sure all my ground support works ahead of time though, so that there is no possibility of surprises on launch day. I’ll probably need to do a couple fill and dumps for that, but that can be done without ignition and I can’t imagine needing to do more than one successful static fire if the ground support setup has already been properly checked by that point.
Be aware that the pyrotechnic license required for HPR in NSW will probably take a few months, along with a security check, too.

As Norm mentioned above, CRG has club hybrid GSE, so if you ever make it down to Ardlethan in NSW, you’d be welcome to fly your hybrid with us.
 
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Be aware the the pyrotechnic license required for HPR in NSW will probably take a few months, along with a security check, too.

As Norm mentioned above, CRG has club hybrid GSE, so if you ever make it down to Ardlethan in NSW, you’d be welcome to fly your hybrid with us.
That’d be rad if I'm ever down that way, thank you. I’m 99% sure that qld licence to use explosives can be recognised and used in nsw so should be able to just use my qld one, but I do believe there’s still an application form to do, probably takes the same time to process anyway haha.
 
That’d be rad if I'm ever down that way, thank you. I’m 99% sure that qld licence to use explosives can be recognised and used in nsw so should be able to just use my qld one, but I do believe there’s still an application form to do, probably takes the same time to process anyway haha.
Pretty sure if you're already legal in Qld, any other launch location will look after you by being the named pyrotechnician.... It's expensive enough to fill in the paperwork the first time.... As long as they know you're coming.
 
I have no idea what the legalities are in Australia but here in Germany it's very difficult to get the paperwork to even purchase BP. That means people have really looked into pyro-free versions of all aspects of the hobby. If you light (and thus fly) a hybrid without pyrotechnics (i.e. use oxygen, steel wool and current from a battery) you don't need to comply with any regulations regarding pyro stuff. Still need a waiver and so on sure and maybe your club requires you to comply with their rules, but by law it's not an issue anymore.
 
I have no idea what the legalities are in Australia but here in Germany it's very difficult to get the paperwork to even purchase BP. That means people have really looked into pyro-free versions of all aspects of the hobby. If you light (and thus fly) a hybrid without pyrotechnics (i.e. use oxygen, steel wool and current from a battery) you don't need to comply with any regulations regarding pyro stuff. Still need a waiver and so on sure and maybe your club requires you to comply with their rules, but by law it's not an issue anymore.
BP is the safest and easiest method of separation/ejection. It would be really useful if the Warning Warning Danger Will Robinson agencies would permit the same amount of BP as is already permitted for a rocket motor OR let's say 5 g instead of the 62.5g already permitted as a solid propellant motor. Failure to permit that leads to an increased potential failure rate from the fact that IT IS NOT PERMITTED. By NOT permitting small amounts of BP rocket safety is reduced.....
 
BP is the safest and easiest method of separation/ejection. It would be really useful if the Warning Warning Danger Will Robinson agencies would permit the same amount of BP as is already permitted for a rocket motor OR let's say 5 g instead of the 62.5g already permitted as a solid propellant motor. Failure to permit that leads to an increased potential failure rate from the fact that IT IS NOT PERMITTED. By NOT permitting small amounts of BP rocket safety is reduced.....

Can you get nitrocellulose cotton (also called flash cotton, gun cotton) without permit? That's an alternative for BP used here with great success. Idk how well it works at high altitudes (where BP also starts to have problems) but for "normal" HPR rockets it's a great option. Burns much cleaner than BP (almost no residues) and less violent. You pretty much can't "overdose" your ejection charges and get a super violent separation since it builds pressure just a tad slower. The entire scene here is using it since it's legal to buy for anyone and it's been used for anything from LPR to L3 stuff.
 
I have no idea what the legalities are in Australia but here in Germany it's very difficult to get the paperwork to even purchase BP. That means people have really looked into pyro-free versions of all aspects of the hobby. If you light (and thus fly) a hybrid without pyrotechnics (i.e. use oxygen, steel wool and current from a battery) you don't need to comply with any regulations regarding pyro stuff. Still need a waiver and so on sure and maybe your club requires you to comply with their rules, but by law it's not an issue anymore.
What are you using for ejection?
 
What are you using for ejection?
Both NC powder/cotton and BP (I put in the effort to get the permit), but the latter only if I run out of NC. I use BP for the pyrovalve on my hybrid (BP holds back a piston) but i remember Edward posting about using oil instead of BP.

For recovery there's also other options (servo actuated hatch) and I'm sure people can find of new solutions noone has built so far :)

But let's stay on topic here and talk more nitrous :cool:
 
Did some more machining on the prefilled 38mm today and almost got the injector assembly done but ran out of time. Next time I'll turn the piston, that holds the nitrous back until ignition and a new piston for the pin valve that goes on the tank.

This is the side facing the grain. The part in the middle has the actual injector holes in it:

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I drilled them (3*1,5mm) into a piece of hexagonal stock before turning it, which made drilling them tangentially to the center hole much easier:

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This way the nitrous exits 90 degrees and offset to the axis of the motor giving it a lot of swirl. It hits ths conical shape and can then expand in a vortex around the injector before hitting the top end of the grain:

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Hard to see the conical part in the picture above I guess...

On top of this sits the inserts that has the matching pin for the tank's valve:

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I decided against AT's version of holding this piece in with a snap ring because I don't like putting snap rings down a narrow hole like that. And if it snaps off the pliers it might scar the sealing surface for the valve. So instead the insert has an O-Ring groove and the o-ring's friction holds it in place. All three o-rings on these parts (injector body, insert and valve) are the same type and size to make things even easier.

Drilling the off center holes in the stainless insert was an interesting one but actually an easy job on the lathe. Eccentricity ftw!

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I also printed some grains but more on that some other time. Maybe I should start a thread just for this build?
 
I have no idea what the legalities are in Australia but here in Germany it's very difficult to get the paperwork to even purchase BP. That means people have really looked into pyro-free versions of all aspects of the hobby. If you light (and thus fly) a hybrid without pyrotechnics (i.e. use oxygen, steel wool and current from a battery) you don't need to comply with any regulations regarding pyro stuff. Still need a waiver and so on sure and maybe your club requires you to comply with their rules, but by law it's not an issue anymore.
Can you get regular hobby BP motors in Germany, you can use that for a pyrovalve.
 
Can you get regular hobby BP motors in Germany, you can use that for a pyrovalve.
The great thing about this, is that in the last few years many new technology changes have happened and things like handheld compressors, oxygen generators, high voltage supplies, 3d printing and all the other great things that that are available, allow us to completely rethink our options for a fully pyroless system.
 
Can you get regular hobby BP motors in Germany, you can use that for a pyrovalve.
They're available, even some very nice 18mm motors that use some other (higher Isp) chemistry but look and work like BP ones. But cutting them up would be illegal again, even if you have the certification to use loose BP like me. For the prefilled I'll go with BP to hold the piston back for now. If going pyrofree peaks my interest I'd change my design a little and use some kind of liquid or paste instead of the BP.

For pad-filled motors people have done pyro-free for a long time (Hypertek for example) and I am actually considering that for when i build a GSE but right now I dont need one.
 
Damn, less than a week to ship from the US to Australia, and that’s including a weekend! I don’t feel so bad about the cost of shipping stuff to Australia now!

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I've just received a spare 38mm forward bulkhead/vent and floating injector, same as in your order, in five days!!! Thank you Tom!
 
anyone use rammed bentonite clay or durhams rockhard for small hybrid nozzles? thinking of trying that with a nice nozzle washer installed.
 
anyone use rammed bentonite clay or durhams rockhard for small hybrid nozzles? thinking of trying that with a nice nozzle washer installed.

I haven't tried it, but now I am curious. On one hand hybrid exhaust tends to be significantly less abrasive than solid exhaust, but on the other hand it tends to be an oxidizer rich exhaust that may just turn the nozzle into fuel.
 
I haven't tried it, but now I am curious. On one hand hybrid exhaust tends to be significantly less abrasive than solid exhaust, but on the other hand it tends to be an oxidizer rich exhaust that may just turn the nozzle into fuel.
Im leaning more to using the Rock hard, maybe cast into a phenolic motor case as a carrier, plus use a nozzle washer to support it.
 
Im leaning more to using the Rock hard, maybe cast into a phenolic motor case as a carrier, plus use a nozzle washer to support it.
I assume that would probably work. Hybrids are pretty good at burning most things but I dare say stuff like rock hard or other quick setting concrete would last long enough to be an effective nozzle
 
I assume that would probably work. Hybrids are pretty good at burning most things but I dare say stuff like rock hard or other quick setting concrete would last long enough to be an effective nozzle
The one thing that ceramics buys you is they're generally already oxidized. Of course, that's a moot point if the temperature is enough to melt or decompose the molecules.

TP
 
One thing you can experiment with - with non ideal nozzle materials - is introducing some film cooling just prior to the nozzle entry ie. a material that will decompose (endothermically) and not react exothermically with the chamber flow to both provide a film layer but that can also perhaps couple as a post CC for the internal mass flow. Careful geometry will be required to provide appropriate laminar boundary conditions which if achieved successfully should also provide an oxidation protection to the nozzle.

Look in Sutton's Rocket Propulsion Elements for the kind of geometries I'm talking about under film cooling section (look at the solid propellant example).

TP
 
Why not lean more to sodium silicate based putties such as some muffler putties? Fill them as highly as possible with FG or CF strands.

TP
Why Durhams?

The reason I am trying Durhams is,
  • It can be drilled and machined... carefully
    • Certain parts of a nozzle would be hard to cast in small sizes. Being able to finish machine it is important to me. I do have graphite rod and can machine it too but if i can cast the durhams close to finals size there wont be much machining, plus it avoids the graphite dust problem
  • it actually expands a little when it sets up
    • this is really important for a bunch or reasons, My plan for small hybrid nozzles is to cast the durhams into a cardboard nozzle holder, these are really cheep and available as firework tubes. I'm using a 1" OD x 3/4 inch ID tube. Looks IDENTICAL to what the Ratt 29mm came with. I want to cast into the tube and have the nozzle snug in the tube. The other advantage of this is the tube gives me something to chuck into on the lathe. without worrying about crushing the nozzle.
  • easy to cast
    • Mix, pack let cure - easy. A true ceramic may be better but i wanted to avoid having the shrink factor and kiln. It is a lot of work to be a lazy as i am.
  • cheep
    • literally less ta $.25 per 29mm nozzle
As far as fillers go,

  • glass fiber (e-glass) melts pretty fast at pretty low temperature, not a great choice
  • Carbon Fiber, better choice but the fibers are very small, a 3K tow (what most of the CF cloth folks on here use is made from) will never wet out with a cast able ceramic, likely to end up with void paths and air pockets. heat up an air pocket on a brittle material like this and it may end up spalling. One other issue for CF is it is VERY thermally conductive to the point where at the day job we have used CF 'heat pipes'
  • Quartz Fibers - there are very high temperature and the individual fibers are larger than CF, easier to wet out and low conductivity.
For the day job, one of the tricks for making composites pass a burn through test is to add a single layer of quartz fabric to a CF laminate, holds it together to delay burn through. Works kind of like the 'chicken wire' they add to fiber block window glass.

What about rammed bentonite clay, Still playing with it, the reason whey the durhams may be better is the ability to have finer details in it, like a lip or step. a nozzle where the top indexes into the grain (think dumb plastic grains) would be hard to do with bentonite clay, but if i cast into a nozzle insulator (cardboard) I can just machine the step and finish the ID.
 
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Steps for a 'skyripper style' nozzle

Cast nozzle
Step 1, cast (gray) into a motor insulator (red), using (2) 3d printed centers (green) and a center mandrel (brass)

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Step 2 final machine the nozzle bore - using a drill and or reamer Final machine the divergent side, using a tapered reamer. Steps can be done on a drill press or lathe

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Step 3 final machine the convergent side using a piloted countersink or just the front off a drill - steps can be done on a drill press or lathe
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Step 4 machine the step, cutting through the motor insulator -
Option 1, use a lathe and either single point or tool post mill (I have a forham mounted to my lathe)
Option 2 - use a drill press using a small end mill and an offset center (easy to do), cut off wheel to 'flatten end if needed'
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O -ring around lip, grain slides on. if the nozzle is single use, use the melt to seal method using a buna oring, if they are multi use, use a silicone oring

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Quartz fibre is better, but FG can be an adequate poor man's alternative. I've been filling composite nozzles with FG and CF for over 25 year for long burn hybrids and continually get multiple burns from them.

TP
 
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