Great Goblin at AC Supply
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Scott_650
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One way to look at whatâs happening is itâs a return to form for Estes. Back to the direct sales plus hobby shop retail as opposed to a few big online sellers offering deep discounts. Back in the day (as they say) your only choice for Estes products wasâŚdirect from Estes or a hobby shop. It wasnât until Damon Corp got involved did Estes end up on big retailers shelves, with prices subject to typical low-margin pricing practices, which fed into the current ârace to the bottomâ that online retailing can lead to.
Weâve become accustomed to those discount prices being ânormalâ when they were really an aberration. Will what Estes is doing be a corrective and lead to a healthier overall market? Guess weâll see. I donât like paying more for a non-essential, luxury item but if paying more for BP motors means the hobby remains viable it looks like a reasonable tradeoff.
On the practical side, with the advent of consumer accessible 3D printing and laser cutting plus the proliferation of boutique/small scale kit producers, the only thing we, the enthusiast market, (most likely Estes smallest market segment) really need from Estes is motors. And with Aerotech expanding into LPR that need has shrunk.
Another factor that might not seem obvious at first glance is, at the ânormieâ consumer level, all Estes really has is their reputation as THE model rocket company. That means they are a âpremiumâ brand - the quality of the product really isnât that big a factor in that recognition by people of a brand as premium as much as what the buyers think/feel about the product. After all, as pointed out by many, all theyâre selling is cardboard tubes, plastic bits and balsa - the perceived value is in the design, the entertainment value and the name on the package. I can tell you from experience that an Estes Big Bertha doesnât fly any better (or build any different) than a Quest Big Betty.
mh9162013
Well-Known Member
Points well taken.
When it comes to brands, Estes is my favorite. Whenever I see or work on a Quest or some other brand kit, I feel like I'm eating a generic Oreo cookie* even if that non-Estes kit is objectively higher quality.
*The generic Oreo cookie was the first food product I ever ate where I could easily and objectively say the generic version was not as good as the original.
ShadowSpire48
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Rocketarium's quality makes Estes look like a generic oreo cookie lol
mh9162013
Well-Known Member
So noted!
I've been wanting to build one of Rocketarium's kits...seen many vids of those kits getting built online and they do seem nice. But there's that nostalgia with Estes that I can't get anywhere else...
Looks like a Red Max?
With four slightly smaller fins then 3 larger ones; been this way for decades ...
Scott_650
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mr. bob
Well-Known Member
Exactly. With my brick amd mortar store. I had a hard time moving Estes kits due to massive online discounters. But sold a good amount of Starter sets and motors to prople just getting into the hobby. And I carry smaller brands and brought back the Starlight kits which brings more rocket people through the door.
Capt. Eric
Well-Known Member
My concern is that Estes has been introducing products at fairly high prices, coupled with other price increases, higher shipping costs (what the heck is "package protection" really about?), and now trying to eliminate discounts from other sellers, the end result will be lower volumes of rockets being bought, built, and sold. Less flying isn't good for the hobby. If you want to get kids and newbies into this hobby, it has to be cheap and easy. Once they are hooked, they will progress into higher complexity building and flying. But to get them into it for the first bunch of builds, it has to be cheap or parents won't support it. For a lot of reasons, the hobby seems to have been growing, and low cost Estes products is a big part of that. If that goes away, will the hobby suffer? Maybe not. Maybe Apogee, Aerotech and Quest products fill that volume.
And while I understand everyone wants higher profit margins and greater share of retail sales, I'm sure there will be lower volumes. Time will tell which is better.
And while I understand everyone wants higher profit margins and greater share of retail sales, I'm sure there will be lower volumes. Time will tell which is better.
mr. bob
Well-Known Member
I dont know the behind closed door talks at Estes. But maybe they are thinking "If we alow some people to sell at dealer cost online and elsware. There will be less stores interested in carrying our products". Which in turn if stores drop there product due to crazy compitition prices. Then less mom and dad spontaniously getting a starter set to get the youngins hooked.
I might be wrong but from my brick and mortar prospective that would make sence.
Well if Estes is going to require everyone to use MSRP, its going to suck. Other than Hobby Lobby and their pitiful selection of rockets, there is exactly one hobby shop a half hour drive away that carries rockets, and their selection is very poor too. If I'm going to have to buy online from Estes or the essentially extinct local hobby shop for Estes products, well... lets just say I am much less likely to order from them. Its not as if they've had very much I want to buy the last couple years anyways, but motors and misc parts were an occasional purchase from them.
I kind of get why they might be going this route, but its going to affect my willingness to even purchase their products. Now if Hobby Lobby stops carrying their motors, then I will be in a world of hurt. I was basically buying most of my motors from HL, with occasional orders from AC Supply for C11, E16s, some B6-0 motors (Hobby Lobby only carries C6-0 last time I looked).
I kind of get why they might be going this route, but its going to affect my willingness to even purchase their products. Now if Hobby Lobby stops carrying their motors, then I will be in a world of hurt. I was basically buying most of my motors from HL, with occasional orders from AC Supply for C11, E16s, some B6-0 motors (Hobby Lobby only carries C6-0 last time I looked).
mh9162013
Well-Known Member
That's my theory on Estes' thought process, too.
I imagine places like AC Supply aren't a primary point of "first contact" with new customers. AC Supply is where established hobbyists, educators and child/teen group leaders go.
mh9162013
Well-Known Member
Based on what you just wrote, it sounds like you're EXACTLY the type of customer Estes is willing to lose if it means getting just a handful of parents/group leaders/kids to decide to buy a starter set and/or a few kits on a whim.
The whole reason I'm a BAR is because my son expressed interest in stomp rockets. One thing led to another and here we are...
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An interesting aspect is that MAP pricing is generally regulated by laws. There are things a manufacturer/distributor can and can't do or require. Estes can ask distributors to agree to whatever they want, but (IANAL) my understanding is that if a portion of an agreement is found to be in conflict with applicable law, that portion will be null and void. In essence, there are protections in the law against sellers using too-aggressive strong-arm tactics against their customers. A seller must proceed carefully in how it works to enforce the requirements, or the whole thing may fall apart. Some distributors may be willing to spend more money consulting with their attorneys on this than others.
Well maybe so. But. When I got back into rocketry to introduce my son to it, I bought a ton of Estes rockets, a few at a time. Now that I don't buy them so often, maybe they can afford to see me reduce my purchases. But having bought probably 25 or so Estes rockets, and my build pile is enough, they can afford to jettison me I guess.
If AC Supply is really forced to sell at MSRP then I, too will be really interested to see what happens at Hobby Lobby. At the moment, their motor prices are as good as AC's 33% off prices on what HL carries. I generally buy bulk packs of B6-4s and C6-5s (and motors HL doesn't carry) from AC Supply as well as the occasional kit, and recently those orders have included Q-Jets. Actually B6-4s, on an individual basis are less expensive at HL by a few pennies each. It will be interesting to see what happens and how much it affects how much and what I fly.
Further up the thread someone commented that this is really a return to the way Estes products used to be sold. Of course back then there was a branch of the Penrose post office right in the main Estes building â and that's how I got my Estes stuff when I was in my first rocketry period (1967-1973 or so). I kind of doubt they will be able to grow the direct sales back to the level that that becomes necessary
Further up the thread someone commented that this is really a return to the way Estes products used to be sold. Of course back then there was a branch of the Penrose post office right in the main Estes building â and that's how I got my Estes stuff when I was in my first rocketry period (1967-1973 or so). I kind of doubt they will be able to grow the direct sales back to the level that that becomes necessary
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There used to be a lot more good hobby shops around. The local B&M hobby shop is pretty good if you're into electric R/C cars, but has about half as much rocket inventory as the HL, and it's at full MSRP. The only way I buy something there is if they have it on clearance, like the Booster-55s for $2.49.
The reality is that the past is another country, and we can't return to it.
Consumers are now used to choice. When it comes to providing price and selection on specialized items that don't sell in "Walmart widget" quantities, consolidation is the only way to make it work. We expect to be able to pick from almost the whole product line of several manufacturers, with reasonably favorable pricing. Even at MSRP, the only way to make that work is to have a smaller number of retailers in the game, doing more volume. If B&M shops all around the country were all stocked up with one to three of even the fastest-moving 50 percent of Estes SKUs, that would be a staggering amount of inventory sitting on shelves collecting dust. Great for Estes, not so great for the retailers.
Then someone wants to buy something in the bottom half of the catalog, and it has to be special ordered. So they have to drive to the shop, deal with the shop to place the order, probably pay in advance, then wait for the shop's next stocking order from the distributor, then drive back and pick it up. The "value added" by the B&M hobby shop in that scenario is actually negative, and substantially so. It's massively more efficient for that same consumer to just order it online from a rocket specific vendor and wait for it to show up.
The reality is that the past is another country, and we can't return to it.
Consumers are now used to choice. When it comes to providing price and selection on specialized items that don't sell in "Walmart widget" quantities, consolidation is the only way to make it work. We expect to be able to pick from almost the whole product line of several manufacturers, with reasonably favorable pricing. Even at MSRP, the only way to make that work is to have a smaller number of retailers in the game, doing more volume. If B&M shops all around the country were all stocked up with one to three of even the fastest-moving 50 percent of Estes SKUs, that would be a staggering amount of inventory sitting on shelves collecting dust. Great for Estes, not so great for the retailers.
Then someone wants to buy something in the bottom half of the catalog, and it has to be special ordered. So they have to drive to the shop, deal with the shop to place the order, probably pay in advance, then wait for the shop's next stocking order from the distributor, then drive back and pick it up. The "value added" by the B&M hobby shop in that scenario is actually negative, and substantially so. It's massively more efficient for that same consumer to just order it online from a rocket specific vendor and wait for it to show up.
Scott_650
Well-Known Member
That was me. But just because I said it doesnât mean I like it - my first reaction to this conversation was to place an order from ACS, using my discount code of course. When it arrives Iâll have at least a seasonâs worth of BP motors on hand.
Itâs going to be interesting to see how this all settles out. Estes being bought by the Langfords was probably the best outcome at the time - Iâm not sure it would even exist now if that hadnât happened. Maybe as a brand owned by an aggregator to be slapped on rebranded versions of someone elseâs designs - kind of like what happened with MPC/Round2. But the second edge of the two-edged of the sword means Estes has to stand on its own, not just as a part of a larger company that can absorb the negatives (while using Estes as a source of cash flow when things are good). The current owners are definitely rocket people, decidedly aerospace people but certainly entrepreneurs. If revenue from sales start dropping what will the reaction be from Estes management? Hopefully cutting prices before cutting costs!
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Just to note, @tbonerocketeer is offering the same discount on Estes and Quest stuff as ACS, and he has other stuff (e.g. AT, LOC) that ACS doesn't. He doesn't offer free shipping, but the loyalty rewards credit from past orders was actually more than the freight on the order I just placed.
Perhaps there could be some questions asked of Estes at vNARCON to see what the end goal is?
What I want to know is going forward what is HL online vs storefront going to be. For example: D12-4 (3) pack at "list price" is $ 26.49. But HL Store AND Website are both $ 17.99.
Per Chris's note about the "AGREEMENT" (post #11) : he can sell at any price he wants to from his "trailer (storefront)", but must sell on "online (website)" at "LIST".
Is HL part of this split price structure, or did they get an exception from Estes as a "physical, national hobby store retailer", to sell online at in-store price???
ShadowSpire48
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Aside from Hobby Lobby, I have two HobbyTowns near me (one being the largest in the nation) and they have more or less stopped carrying Estes. One has pretty much stopped rockets for good and the other has more Quest stuff than Estes.
The main goal is to introduce rocketry to kids and not to sell cheaper stuff to old guys. Here's Bill explaining why LHS are dying out and Estes developing contracts with the big stores. In a later video, he shows packages of motors being specialty priced and shipped to HL per contract. I still wonder what he told the audience with the cameras off.
Bill showing where the mail order coins were collected into wheel barrows and later where the Cineroc film was processed near the old Post Office.
All kudos to the Langfords, I miss Bill because he used to tell us the real stuff, not just the marketing stuff.
Bill showing where the mail order coins were collected into wheel barrows and later where the Cineroc film was processed near the old Post Office.
All kudos to the Langfords, I miss Bill because he used to tell us the real stuff, not just the marketing stuff.
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mh9162013
Well-Known Member
I wonder why we don't see Estes in Michael's or Walmart yet?
We used to, it left for some reason. Estes was also at our regional Meijer's food and home goods stores in the toy departments next to sporting goods. Motors, ARFs, and the launchables.
You mean after 2020 when Bill said they were going back into Michaels and start in Walmart? Probably COVID but not sure why exactly.
I remember buying rocket at the local craft store (Ben Franklin) that I could walk to. We also bought them at Walmart. That would have been in the 90s.
I just reloaded from ACS, but I might have to buy another box of B6-4s. Hate to run out of those.
I just reloaded from ACS, but I might have to buy another box of B6-4s. Hate to run out of those.
mr. bob
Well-Known Member
I used to get my MPC rockets at Meijer decades ago
Balsa Machining Service still offers the schoolyard rocket kits for $6.49, at any quantity you want. That is with balsa nose cones, through the wall fins, plywood centering rings, Kevlar shock cords, etc. - high quality, if you can give up the fancy packaging. I have been using these for our Scout builds/launches. Our local hobby stores (the few that are left) are definitely cutting back on rocketry offerings (no finger pointing, just reality). The big box stores? Product lines and inventory seem to be in constant flux for more than just rocketry. The world of e-commerce has changed things permanently. I purchase from at least 15 on-line vendors because I just can't get what I want locally (except for the local HPR vendor, who has some things). Being an OG and BAR, I easily (and nostalgically) remember the trips to all the wonderful brick and mortar places, but that's gone and not coming back. I greatly reduced going to the local big (independent) hobby store when they cut back to just LPR Estes stuff. Another smaller shop near me pivoted to using the retail space as a warehouse for their newer on-line business. You can still go in, but the aisles are very crowded. He says he is doing well with the on-line market. I know they have to do what they need to survive, and I want them to do so! If you are doing mid and high power, you are already relying on e-commerce and field vendors. The crux of the whole thing is the motors. For low power, we have Estes and Quest, and have enjoyed some lower cost alternatives for supplying the motors. I hope that remains. I can still set up a Scout with a kit and two motors for about $10, which seems to be acceptable to parents, but going above that may not be, especially for families with 2 or more Scouts. Then we bring them to the club launches, and I think create more than a few new rocketeers.
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