Gas Prices

[Jase]

Originally posted by robfire820
with a heck of a lot better public transport service than here.

This hits it on the head! There are only a handful of major cities in the US that have a truly effective mass transit system.

I'm not a bus person, but I'd ride a train everywhere if I could.

Dallas has it started with the light rail, but with only two main lines that serve the northeast area, it's not getting to the faster growing areas due north and northeast.

I took the train to a seminar a few months ago that was downtown with numerous other people that was their first time riding it. It amazed me to hear people say that they wouldn't want to ride it everyday. It's much more peaceful and relaxing than driving the 30 miles in ungodly traffic to me. Not to mention the savings. A monthly rail pass is $40 with free parking at the rail stations.

 

Originally posted by bjmcder
No more using SUV's and V12 Rolls-Royce monsters for trips to the supermarket. But as they say, old habits die hard. I fear t may take a global crisis to drive the point home to some people.

And the Chrysler 300s, Corvettes, Volvos, BMWs 5 and 7 series, Mercs, V-6 Toyotas and V-6 Hondas. And the gajazillions of pickup trucks out there. And Jeeps - lets not forget the Jeeps.

It bothers me that only the SUV gets the blame, when modern cars these days are almost as fuel-inefficient as an average V-6 SUV.

 

[sunward]

Originally posted by vcp
Nobody has mentioned ethenol, surely thats gonna solve all our problems.

GC

Uhm, maybe not. Look at:

Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy

 

[ericb]

I ran a few tankfuls of ethanol earlier this year in my Yukon and found that it was very expensive. My gas milage went way down to about 12 or 13mpg. I normally get about 18mpg. At that time, IIRC, I was buying ethanol for about $1.86 / gal and 87oct gas was about $2.45 / gal or something like that. I did some math back then and figured out I wouldn't break even economically unless gas hit $2.70. Now, I see ethanol, locally, is $2 / gal, so that makes the equation even worse. My normal commute is 18 miles each direction, so I use 2 gal's per day just for work. Ethanol isn't a wise option for me.

 

[cls]

It bothers me that only the SUV gets the blame, when modern cars these days are almost as fuel-inefficient as an average V-6 SUV.

yup!! my RX-8 (250HP) averages about 15MPG around town (I do not have a feather foot). if I drive the way my mom does it will get a whopping 18MPG. it gets 25MPG or better on the highway, cruising 65 or 70, but I don't take it on the highway much.

in contrast the 2005 Corvette gets 18 MPG around town (400HP) and a whopping 30MPG on the highway!!! but it costs another $15,000 and doesn't have rear seats. at any price I can buy a lot of gas for $15,000.

compare the RX-8 with my 1992 Ford Ranger pickup - 3.0L V-6, rated at 150 HP, it gets about 16 MPG around town, not even 20 MPG on the highway. it would do better if I kept the speed down but that's impossible on long trips.

 

[Nuke Rocketeer]

Originally posted by vcp
But folks definition of a 'practical' electric vehicle varies widely. I'd be thrilled with a 2-seat car, modest storage, no heat, no a/c, and a total distance/charge of 100 miles or less (actually 50 would be plenty for me). Such a vehicle would serve maybe 80% of my miles. I don't live in my car, just something that gets me from here to there is all I need or want.

GC

By practical, I mean that the batteries last as long as an IC engine, say 150K to 200K miles. Right now, no battery lasts that long before it has to be replaced. I agree that a 2 seater with a 100 mile range would do for most people's communting needs at 50-55 mph, but no batteries last long enough to make electric cars practical.

Joe W
:kill:

 

[JPC]

If you check some of the battery warranties that hybrids are comming with, they are in the 5 to 10 year range. The civic hybrid comes with a 8-year/80,000 mile warranty on the battery. The toyota Prius has an 8-year/100,000 mile warranty on the battery, motor controller, etc. Ford Escape is 8-year/100,000 miles.

Not quite 150k/200 yet, I don't know if they'll ever get there, I'm sure the manufacturers have already plotted their income around battery replacements in a few years.

 

[KermieD]

Originally posted by ericb
I ran a few tankfuls of ethanol earlier this year in my Yukon and found that it was very expensive. My gas milage went way down to about 12 or 13mpg. I normally get about 18mpg. At that time, IIRC, I was buying ethanol for about $1.86 / gal and 87oct gas was about $2.45 / gal or something like that. I did some math back then and figured out I wouldn't break even economically unless gas hit $2.70. Now, I see ethanol, locally, is $2 / gal, so that makes the equation even worse. My normal commute is 18 miles each direction, so I use 2 gal's per day just for work. Ethanol isn't a wise option for me.

Oof. Don't try that again. There's a big push for ethanol up here in the Midwest and there are gas stations cropping up for the E85 blend (85% ethanol, 15% gas) left and right here. DO NOT, however, run ethanol in your current vehicle. You either need to purchase a "flexible fuel" vehicle or have yours modified to use it, or it won't work efficiently and will tear your engine up. E85 is, IIRC, about a buck and a half here.

 

[vcp]

Originally posted by Nuke Rocketeer
By practical, I mean that the batteries last as long as an IC engine, say 150K to 200K miles. Right now, no battery lasts that long before it has to be replaced. I agree that a 2 seater with a 100 mile range would do for most people's communting needs at 50-55 mph, but no batteries last long enough to make electric cars practical.

Yeah, I guess I was hoping that something with a limited range could use some less exotic, less expensive battery technology. It'd be difficult to get a battery cost/miles figure since it would depend on the batteries and the vehicle, charge/discharge cycles. I would really like to see a battery cost/miles figure for the current hybrids (but that's going to be distorted by how much its using the gas engine).

Originally posted by JPC
If you check some of the battery warranties that hybrids are comming with, they are in the 5 to 10 year range.

But surely those aren't full replacement warranties? Aren't they like warranties on current auto batteries, where they give you 25% off the cost of a new battery if your 48month DieHard craps out at 36 months? I wonder what the resale price of a hybrid will be when the prospective buyer knows that a battery changeout is on the horizon. I mean, with any used car, you take the chance of expensive repairs, but at least you can try to select a vehicle that was well cared for and hope for the best. But you absolutely know the battery is going end-of-life within a certain period, and there's no amount of preventive maintenance or careful use you can do to get around it.
I predict that 10 years from now, there'll be a bunch of hybrids running around engine only, with the batteries stripped out (do the engines have enough oomph to run that way?).

{if you're asking if it's too political, please don't post it -- KD}

GC

 

[vcp]

Originally posted by sunward
Uhm, maybe not. Look at:

Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy

Bingo! (edit--yes, too political --KD) Interesting though, that this study recommends "producing fuel from hydrogen conversion".

GC

 

[11bravo]

Originally posted by vcp
But folks definition of a 'practical' electric vehicle varies widely. I'd be thrilled with a 2-seat car, modest storage, no heat, no a/c, and a total distance/charge of 100 miles or less (actually 50 would be plenty for me). Such a vehicle would serve maybe 80% of my miles. I don't live in my car, just something that gets me from here to there is all I need or want.

GC

The Tango

Greg

 

[JPC]

I did some digging around, the older Prius cars actually used a lot of "D" Sized NiMh cells assembled into modules, the newer ones use prismatic NiMh cells , so these things aren't using that new of battery technology, most of the advances are comming with being able to pack high energy densities into the same size cells.

A recent breakthrough, in the production of carbon nanotube sheets will probably be a major benefit in reducing the cost of battery production, and result in higher energy densities for less weight and more power.

As for the battery warranties in CA, MA, ME, VT, NY the warranty for a prius is 150k miles, I did a lot of searching but couldn't find out details if battery replacement was pro-rated because none have been replaced aside from accident damage. (Manufacturers claim).

 

[Chuck Rudy]

As energy prices goes up inflation will not be far behind. It takes a half gallon of diesel to produce a gallon of milk.

As gas goes up people will return to the urban centers, the cities will go through a renaissance of rebuilding. Many short term jobs.

Sprawl will die down. The burbs will be an inefficient place to live.

The auto companies will retool to supply more efficient vehicles.

Mass transport will begin to flourish and expand, after repairing all the decay from several decades of neglect. Old RR tracks will reopen after years of sitting idle.

Gas taxes will pay to repair mass transit and efficient pathways between towns.

Why does it take $3, $4, $5 per gallon prices for this to happen?
Is this the end of the 'disposable' society in America?
One small disaster at any refinery in this country will affect the price of fuel. Where are the new refineries?
Will high transportation costs require more 'Made in U.S.A.' quality goods to be produced? Will Americans pay twice the price for lesser import quality?
Will we start traveling more like our great grandparents? Boarding trolleys to criss cross across county to get where you want to go?
Will we go back to only farmers and construction workers buying pickups?
When fuel increases car get smaller to be more efficient, Tractor Trailers get heavier to get more efficient, will they coexist? Or will all the safety gains go out the window? Heavier trucks can't stop as fast, smaller cars will lose more battles with trees, telephone poles, larger vehicles and tractor trailers.



The SUV I bought gets 30 mpg, better than the (4 cylinder) car I traded in on it, and it has room for the rocketry related stuff including table, rockets and suitcases. Yes it's all made in the USA (of 87% American built components) and ended a search for a safe, fuel efficient vehicle I could use for trips, rocketry and work. I don't see any reason to get rid of it unless something more efficient pops up.

I really wonder what kind of research most Americans do when purchasing a vehicle as I see some houses turning in vehicles every 6 months, and they are not leases. It was obvious last year that gas prices were headed uphill, they stopped for a bit, but now are back on track upwards. It's going to be a tough time for many Americans but we have to take some of the blame, and it's gonna be a cold winter for many. Maybe the start of many cold winters.

Chuck

 

[sunward]

Originally posted by Chuck Rudy
.......Why does it take $3, $4, $5 per gallon prices for this to happen?
Is this the end of the 'disposable' society in America? ......
Chuck

Very well put.

As the price of gas, and everything else associated with it, goes up, many will look to more fuel efficient vehicles and to ending of the disposalble society. Plastic comes from oil. I still recall many saying they would stop driving when the price went to a dollar a gallon.

But it is not price alone. The biggest single reason today's ways will be changed will be a shortage. Not price.

 

[dasheight-8]

In the mid-80's in Tulsa, OK, there was a gas war and the price fell to $0.009 per gallon. This lasted one afternoon, but made the news. I think I still have the newspaper article.

Paul

 

[JRThro]

The cheapest gas here in Houston is $2.52 per gallon.

 

[RocketboyG80]

Originally posted by vcp

I predict that 10 years from now, there'll be a bunch of hybrids running around engine only, with the batteries stripped out (do the engines have enough oomph to run that way?).
GC

My mom owns a Prius and I can attest to the fact that it would drive pretty poorly on just the engine. Keep in mind that the electric motor adds 67hp to the engine's modest 76hp. Sometimes I like to watch the touch screen as I'm driving along to see if the car is using just electric, just gas, or both. I find that it uses both when accelerating, just gas at highway cruising speeds, and just electric when putting around town. This makes some sense since most of the car's torque lies in the motor (295lb-ft). I guess you could drive it around town with just the engine if you drove like a granny.

 

[Adam Selene]

Originally posted by Ozymandias
I'm not old but I remember when gas was well under 2 bucks.

ummmm, who doesn't, it was only a couple of months ago.

 

[vcp]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
The Tango
Greg

Cool, almost just what I described. I'd need to wait for the sub $20K version tho. The battery replacement cost notes there mention how the battery life is directly related to depth of discharge. The short cycles I'd drive would keep the costs completely reasonable, if their figures are anywhere near accurate. I could even sell my wife on the idea 'cause George Clooney drives one.

GC

 

[11bravo]

Ray-
Yeah, that pretty much says it.
Some other things that come to MY mind-
***
I think many people in the US are simply not the mass transit type.
I'm not; as wasteful and inefficient as it is, I'd prefer to not even carpool.
Let alone as you point out about suicide bombings; reality is that its just a matter of time before it happens in the US.
***
Time to start poking holes in the Alaska tundra; there really isn't much there to hurt and the natives want the jobs.
Double or triple nuke plants; I'd gladdly let them put one 25 miles downwind from me.
Hydro-electrical is great too; wonder if the Winnebago and Shell Rock Rivers in north-eastern Iowa have enough flow?
***
Something like the Tango would do me quite well for most (80 maybe 85%+) of my driving and could have my Cherokee and or flatbed trailer for when needed.
***
Don't even get me started on the folks that buy pickups because they're cool.
I could legitimately use one for most of the rest of my driving, but because people with WAY TOO much money to throw away buy big four-wheel drive pickups whose only off road use is in driveways, I cannot afford one and have a 16 year old Jeep with 275,000 miles on it.

Greg

 

[KermieD]

Over time, it's become clear this thread cannot remain apolitical as someone suggested earlier. There was some great discussion here, but now it is locked due to excessive political content.