Food may be organic, or organic-certified. Not always the same.

[prfesser]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/11/15/the-great-organic-food-fraud

Long article. TLDR: once a farm has been certified organic, it is possible (and illegal! But apparently fairly easy) to purchase and sell that kind of produce elsewhere, and that may or may not be organically raised. In the case of Randy Constant, a broker for Organic Land Management, he was buying--and selling at a premium--far more corn than could possibly be raised on his acreage:
-----------

"There was a pause. Bushman then asked, with evident anxiety, how much corn Organic Land Management had been growing in Missouri in recent years. About fifteen hundred acres, Borgerding said. Both men were again silent. Borgerding recalls, “You could have heard a pin drop.”​

​

The math didn’t work: Bushman had been buying far more corn from Constant than could possibly have been grown on Organic Land Management’s Missouri farms. It began to dawn on Borgerding that “we were not talking about a load or two—we’re talking millions of dollars of grain.” He recalls concluding that Constant might have just been acting as a broker on the side—buying grain from other organic farmers and then selling it on. Borgerding laughed, weakly, then said, “Or he was doing something else.”​

​

Constant was, in fact, passing off non-organic grain as organic grain. The scheme, in which at least half a dozen associates were involved, is the largest-known fraud in the history of American organic agriculture: prosecutors accused him of causing customers to spend at least a quarter of a billion dollars on products falsely labelled with organic seals."​

----------
I see an awful lot of grocery-store products that are labeled "organic". With the massive increase in goods labeled "organic, I wonder how many produce/meat/milk products are genuinely organic, and how widespread this fraudulent practice is.

 

[Antares JS]

I'm not surprised at all. It would explain why I've never noticed a taste difference between "organic" produce and regular produce.

 

[Donnager]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/11/15/the-great-organic-food-fraud

Long article. TLDR: once a farm has been certified organic, it is possible (and illegal! But apparently fairly easy) to purchase and sell that kind of produce elsewhere, and that may or may not be organically raised. In the case of Randy Constant, a broker for Organic Land Management, he was buying--and selling at a premium--far more corn than could possibly be raised on his acreage:
-----------

"There was a pause. Bushman then asked, with evident anxiety, how much corn Organic Land Management had been growing in Missouri in recent years. About fifteen hundred acres, Borgerding said. Both men were again silent. Borgerding recalls, “You could have heard a pin drop.”​

​

The math didn’t work: Bushman had been buying far more corn from Constant than could possibly have been grown on Organic Land Management’s Missouri farms. It began to dawn on Borgerding that “we were not talking about a load or two—we’re talking millions of dollars of grain.” He recalls concluding that Constant might have just been acting as a broker on the side—buying grain from other organic farmers and then selling it on. Borgerding laughed, weakly, then said, “Or he was doing something else.”​

​

Constant was, in fact, passing off non-organic grain as organic grain. The scheme, in which at least half a dozen associates were involved, is the largest-known fraud in the history of American organic agriculture: prosecutors accused him of causing customers to spend at least a quarter of a billion dollars on products falsely labelled with organic seals."​

----------
I see an awful lot of grocery-store products that are labeled "organic". With the massive increase in goods labeled "organic, I wonder how many produce/meat/milk products are genuinely organic, and how widespread this fraudulent practice is.

Unfortunately, people follow money on both sides of the purchase. Some want to buy 'organic', and see it as premium. Sellers see a void and fill it.

People want "Organic" which can be of questionable value. Putting regular stuff under this label tends to underscore the value of the 'organic' label, and how well it is policed.

I just buy meat and produce that looks/smells good. If it's "Organic", great. If it is in a package from a Piggly Wiggly, that's fine, as well.

I doubt that what we could consider 'organic' is the same as the commercial definition.

 

[Peartree]

I'm not surprised at all. It would explain why I've never noticed a taste difference between "organic" produce and regular produce.

You never noticed the difference because they don't taste any different.

You are, however, likely to notice that locally sourced produce tastes better (in season, naturally) than produce picked early and shipped cross country or internationally. And farm fresh eggs, from small flocks, are almost always WAY better than factory farm, grocery store eggs.

 

[Joekeyo]

To add to the uncertainty, federal inspection for organic certification is understaffed (surprise,surprise). Allowing more room fraud and abuse. Sometimes States have more stringent criteria then Federal and are better staffed for organic certification and inspection. Know your farmer. Let the buyer beware

 

[NTP2]

A wonder if GMO organic are a thing Since gmos could help sustainably.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I’m not surprised that there is fraud in the Organic market. People will pay a premium for it, the certification is not well policed, and there is no way for a consumer to know the difference. That said, I think the majority of products labeled “certified organic“ probably are organic.

On the topic of taste — most organic produce does not taste any different than non-organic. People don’t generally buy organic for taste. They buy organic because it is not produced using herbicides, insecticides, chemical fertilizers, hormones, etc. So it’s more about personal health and environmental health, not flavor.

If you are interested in better tasting foods, then the main thing to look for is freshness, ripeness, and non-commercial varieties. Commercial food production is often affected by constraints that make it easier to produce and transport. Better tasting heirloom varieties are more delicate, have shorter shelf lives, and may be more difficult to grow and pick, so commercial farms focus on varieties that have longer shelf lives and are more robust for machine sorting and transportation, and they pick them before they are ripe because they are less delicate and have more self life ahead of them. To me, the best tasting produce is fresh, ripe heirloom varieties from farmers markets. And there’s also a decent chance the stuff is also organic, but that’s not usually why it tastes better.

Sometimes I buy organic, and sometimes I don’t. I like hormone-free organic milk and will usually pay extra for that. There are a lot of hormones used in the dairy industry, and I don’t want a four-teated udder sprouting up on my belly.

 

[David Schwantz]

It is always a red flag when I load if they want to load out of 2 different bins. Bad stuff goes on bottom, good on top.
Although it may be misleading, organic crops can be grown with fertilizer. Take for instance, Louisville Green, it is human waste. it is considered to be organic. I haul it to organic farms, and golf courses a lot. If only Tiger knew what he was standing on

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

It is always a red flag when I load if they want to load out of 2 different bins. Bad stuff goes on bottom, good on top.
Although it may be misleading, organic crops can be grown with fertilizer. Take for instance, Louisville Green, it is human waste. it is considered to be organic. I haul it to organic farms, and golf courses a lot. If only Tiger knew what he was standing on

Sewage sludge is used as fertilizer, but not in certified organic farming. Louisville Green is not for use in certified organic farming.

 

[David Schwantz]

Louisville Green Nitrogen Fertilizer | MSD​

WebQuality Nitrogen Fertilizer. MSD produces an organic-based nitrogen fertilizer called Louisville Green. It is created from the biosolids removed from wastewater as it …

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Louisville Green Nitrogen Fertilizer | MSD​

WebQuality Nitrogen Fertilizer. MSD produces an organic-based nitrogen fertilizer called Louisville Green. It is created from the biosolids removed from wastewater as it …

Follow your link, and then click on the link for the brochure. The very first line says, “NOT APPROVED FOR ORGANIC FARMING” in all caps bold type. It looks like it is mostly used for landscaping plants.

Here’s the link to the brochure. https://louisvillemsd.org/sites/def...e Green/Louisville-Green-Brochure-Aug2023.pdf

 

[David Schwantz]

sorry thirsty, I take it to organic farms all the time. .

 

[NTP2]

sorry thirsty, I take it to organic farms all the time. .

Maybe fraud is more common than thought…

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

sorry thirsty, I take it to organic farms all the time. .

That may be the case, but it’s not allowed for certified organic farming, so if they are certified organic farms and are using it on their certified organic crops, then they are committing fraud on their certifications or breaking the law in other ways. The USDA prohibits the use of sewage products on certified organic farms.

 

[bwayne64]

I stopped buying fish in the stores, when I saw where they come from and how these countries raise fish. I won't even repeat it here. Look up Chinese fish farming if you want to lose your tilapia, ; )

 

[cls]

Yeah farmed shrimp and farmed salmon are real disasters.

 

[rharshberger]

Organic: definition..."with bugs"

 

[cerving]

So, crossing posts here, if a cow eats your rocket then is it no longer "organically raised"?

 

[bwayne64]

So, crossing posts here, if a cow eats your rocket then is it no longer "organically raised"?

As long as it was organic balsa, and body tubes made from organic trees. But the plastic chute would be a no no, ; )

 

[cwbullet]

I live in a farming belt that sells organic and non-organic onions. It is amazing how little it takes to get a field declared organic and how much more you earn for those onions.

 

[Bill S]

If you are trying to feed the starving masses, then organic is also less efficient in terms of how much food is produced.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-wave...ntial-organic-field-crop-acreage-remains-low/

 

[Antares JS]

If you are trying to feed the starving masses, then organic is also less efficient in terms of how much food is produced.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-wave...ntial-organic-field-crop-acreage-remains-low/

Yep, that's the biggest issue. There wouldn't be enough food for the entire human population if all farms went organic (and were honest about it).

 

[NTP2]

If you are trying to feed the starving masses, then organic is also less efficient in terms of how much food is produced.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-wave...ntial-organic-field-crop-acreage-remains-low/

I have always advocated for fertilizers that are safe if they runoff. Also GMOs can be beneficial for this.

 

[cwbullet]

Yep, that's the biggest issue. There wouldn't be enough food for the entire human population if all farms went organic (and were honest about it).

Very true. They are smaller and it takes more land to make the same amount of food.

 

[jd2cylman]

My family farms organic. We farm around 4000 acres. We do not use any commercial pesticides or herbicides.
The only fertilizers we use are from organic animal farm waste. Our biggest fertilizer usage is used chicken feed. It has the highest percentage of nitrogen. Until a few years ago the piles around our farms were a bit odorous… then they figured out that if it was run through an extruder and pelletized, the odor was way less. All our farms are certified (except the new ones that we just started farming). It takes three years to get the fields certified. Our yields are about 10% lower than conventional farms. But we don’t have to mess with anhydrous ammonia, atrazine, roundup, or parquat any more. We receive premiums for being organic and for non GMO.

 

[John Kemker]

I stopped buying fish in the stores, when I saw where they come from and how these countries raise fish. I won't even repeat it here. Look up Chinese fish farming if you want to lose your tilapia, ; )

I don't like tilapia, anyways. Flavorless fish, popular with the "I want to eat fish but hate the taste of fish" crowd.

 

[Blast it Tom!]

Gee, there are so many bad jokes you could make here... Louisville Green, what a bunch of crap, for instance. My daughter is big into this, and me, being the rotten sot that I am, will say, "I've never seen (lettuce, potatoes, whatever) that is inorganic. How would you eat it?" And I get the perfect PO'd daughter eyeroll!

I think a lot of this comes out of the mistrust of things beyond our knowledge or ability to control that is so endemic today. We want to blame big, faceless, selfish corporations (which admittedly sometimes deserve it), not realizing that someone thought at one time that they'd done a pretty good thing. It's like I said to my daughter (an ER nurse at a Children's hospital), if some told her that she didn't give a d*** if kids lived or died as long as she drew a paycheck, she'd be mighty offended, and for good reason.

Progress is fraught with innovation and oopsies, and you think something is great, then you find out it causes cancer... we once thought insecticide and fertilizers and increased yields were the best, and what could be bad about antibiotics?

So we come up with going "back to the basics" and the lower yields mean higher prices, but so does the perceived value - and then, corrupt people being what they are, someone comes along to game the system, sure,as God made green apples.

I could give more examples, but it's been a long day and the thread has likely moved on since this AM when I started this. I probably forgot what point I was making!

 

[Blast it Tom!]

My family farms organic. We farm around 4000 acres.

...
...
...
Err, can we launch there?

 

[cwbullet]

...
...
...
Err, can we launch there?

I have not reviewed the laws in my state completely, but I pretty sure that would make it non-organic.

 

[jd2cylman]

...
...
...
Err, can we launch there?

I can’t even launch there…
Unfortunately, it’s not all contiguous.
How I wish it were so. I think the biggest field he has is 240 acres. And even that one has a creek lined with trees running through it.